Blademaster Worthiness

[trelkor]

well played master ablar well played indeed

[Suttree]

Also how is Mat a "ga ga eyed" admirer?

 

What, can't you see the obvious attraction Mat has for him? Galad is ridiculously handsome, he's nearly always serious and pretty much never jokes around, he can only ever do what is right and will never make fun of anyone, and he is a noble! Those are all things that Mat loves!

 

Ace...one of the better posts I have seen in some time. Hats off Mastar Ablar.

[Finnssss22]

Also how is Mat a "ga ga eyed" admirer?

 

What, can't you see the obvious attraction Mat has for him? Galad is ridiculously handsome, he's nearly always serious and pretty much never jokes around, he can only ever do what is right and will never make fun of anyone, and he is a noble! Those are all things that Mat loves!

 

 

 

Nicely done!

[Guest PiotrekS]

Also how is Mat a "ga ga eyed" admirer?

 

What, can't you see the obvious attraction Mat has for him? Galad is ridiculously handsome, he's nearly always serious and pretty much never jokes around, he can only ever do what is right and will never make fun of anyone, and he is a noble! Those are all things that Mat loves!

 

And he's the man, let's not forget.

 

Although, considering that usually things that happen to Mat are things which he earlier bemoans...He got "chased" by the woman, he got married - and to a noble to boot! He even got on quite well with an Aes Sedai (Teslyn) and gave his own eye for Moiraine. Hell, he danced with Belthamel.

 

I'm sure for our comical pleasure AmoL will feature many pages on Mat-Galad affair, hiding from Berelain and Tuon etc.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Hell, he danced with Belthamel.

 

And got shot down by Siuan right afterwards

[Luizer]

I think everyone here has moved away from the original topic of this post, which was about the bonding of a warder and being a blade master; as far as that is concerned; the bonding making you faster and stronger, or giving you more endurance will only matter based on skill and experience level. Skill is the defining factor of a master not speed, strength or endurance. I have 10years of experience in Kung Fu, 2yrs of Muay Thai and 3 years of Aikido and Jujitsu respectively. My Aikido instructor was a 50 year old man with over 35yrs of experience in Aikido and Jujitsu, so when I told him that I had studied Kung Fu before he asked me to demonstrate by sparing with him and I will tell you this I was faster, stronger and had more endurance than him just by being 30yrs younger and fit. I will say this; every time we sparred I ended up in a hold or a lock or on the floor. What would seem so complicated to me to him would be as simple as breathing. So yea if I had similar or close to the same experience and skill level as him, having an increased stamina, speed and strength would make a difference. So in the end I would say the answer is yes and no, yes it makes a difference if the difference is skill is small and no, it will not make an novice or intermediate into a master.

[Kahsm]

My point is, and continues to be, that Gawyn is shown to be freaking ridiculously good, and that nothing says Galad is better, other than words from ga-ga-eyed admirers and Mr.PersonalSacrifice himself.

 

and words from the authors themselves which support what multiple characters say in the text. That is where you continue to lose any credibility in your argument. Not to mention you have no answer for the fact that there is zero direct comparison to support Gawyn being able to perform feats that Galad could not.

 

You have a quote from the author that says Gawyn doesn't appear better? I haven't seen that one. I've only seen the ones that say he ISN'T better, and one of them goes further in explaining why (more than likely since it's understood to be unclear from the text, otherwise why would they bother?).

 

I would need direct comparisons to prove that he IS better, not that he APPEARS better because of what is or is not written in the actual books (including the lack of direct comparisons). This is you still not getting my point.

 

Also, in the Hammar quote, is he saying Galad won three, period, or is he saying Galad won three of five? I read it as three of five, which is not very far from two of five.

 

Yes I believe it is meant that he wins 3 out of 5. Which means Galad beats Hammar the majority of the time while Gawyn does not. It might not seem like much of a difference but adds up rather quickly when taken over a period of time. No matter how many times you try to discredit Gawyn's take on the matter the fact that Galad beats Hammar more often is an objective result that just so happens to support what we are told.

 

So it also means Gawyn was only 1 win of 5 away from matching Galad, that suggests they were pretty damn close. And Gawyn said Galad stopped showing up? If he wasn't winning 5/5 why would Galad stop showing up to practice? Tends to suggest Galad didn't feel he needed to get better? While Gawyn was clearly still driven to improve.

 

Also how is Mat a "ga ga eyed" admirer?

 

Lastly please stop saying I refuse to consider anything. All I have said over and over again is you state BS motivations as fact as if you are somehow privy to them. The majority of people on these boards don't see it that way. You don't know what he meant for certain and as such can't use it to hold up your argument.

 

It's not fact, it's simply HIGHLY likely based on two seconds of contemplation on the quote. After like a thousand posts you've still never answered why he would randomly choose Gawyn to explain if he didn't need explaining as you claim. The answer: because he needed explaining (according to Brandon [likely], and me).

 

Also how is Mat a "ga ga eyed" admirer?

 

That may have been harsh, but my point was less about all the women swooning (thought that certainly doesn't help), and more about Galad being the "perfect" one, and Gawyn being the "other" one. You don't think looks and poise has any effect on same-sex interaction? There's countless research about beauty and perception on social interaction.

 

My mother is a twin, and she remembers growing up as "Jen's sister" instead of by her actual name because she wasn't the "star". Even Egwene had to get over being Galad-struck before she realized she found Gawyn was actually more beautiful to her. And a lot of it has to do with how Gawyn differs to Galad. That would apply to everyone, including Mat. Gawyn didn't start finding his own self confidence until they separated and the tower split, and he started leading men for truth.

[Suttree]

You have a quote from the author that says Gawyn doesn't appear better? I haven't seen that one. I've only seen the ones that say he ISN'T better, and one of them goes further in explaining why (more than likely since it's understood to be unclear from the text, otherwise why would they bother?).

 

I would need direct comparisons to prove that he IS better, not that he APPEARS better because of what is or is not written in the actual books (including the lack of direct comparisons). This is you still not getting my point.

 

Honestly don't even know what to say about this. Mate everyone gets your point, we also get you are really just grasping at straws. Again the authors rankings, what multiple characters say in the text(hence what is written in text), and the objective results against a common opponent(again what is written in text) all say Galad is the better fighter. You need comparisons to say unequivocally that he appears better as well(like we have in favor of Galad) else there is no way to rate how impressive his wins are.

 

So it also means Gawyn was only 1 win of 5 away from matching Galad, that suggests they were pretty damn close. And Gawyn said Galad stopped showing up? If he wasn't winning 5/5 why would Galad stop showing up to practice? Tends to suggest Galad didn't feel he needed to get better? While Gawyn was clearly still driven to improve.

 

He isn't 1 win away when you take those results over a period of time. Again Galad wins the majority of the time, Gawyn doesn't. Take that over a week and you have Gawyn 14/35 v 21/35. A fairly significant difference. Not to mention Gawyn was surprised that he won the 2 as if it was something out of the ordinary for him. As for needing to improve we have multiple viewpoints at how quickly Galad picks things up so instead of guessing at reasons why he may not practice as much lets use the one given to us by RJ.

[Kahsm]

You have a quote from the author that says Gawyn doesn't appear better? I haven't seen that one. I've only seen the ones that say he ISN'T better, and one of them goes further in explaining why (more than likely since it's understood to be unclear from the text, otherwise why would they bother?).

 

I would need direct comparisons to prove that he IS better, not that he APPEARS better because of what is or is not written in the actual books (including the lack of direct comparisons). This is you still not getting my point.

 

Honestly don't even know what to say about this. You are really just grasping at straws at this point. Again the authors rankings, what multiple characters say in the text, and the objective results against a common opponent all say Galad is the better fighter. You need comparisons to say unequivocally that he appearsbetter(like we have in favor of Galad) as well else there is no way to rate how impressive his wins are.

 

So it also means Gawyn was only 1 win of 5 away from matching Galad, that suggests they were pretty damn close. And Gawyn said Galad stopped showing up? If he wasn't winning 5/5 why would Galad stop showing up to practice? Tends to suggest Galad didn't feel he needed to get better? While Gawyn was clearly still driven to improve.

 

He isn't 1 win away when you take those results over a period of time. Again Galad wins the majority of the time, Gawyn doesn't. Take that over a week and you have Gawyn 14/35 v 21/35. A fairly significant difference. Not to mention Gawyn was surprised that he won the 2 as if it was something out of the ordinary for him. As for needing to improve we have multiple viewpoints at how quickly Galad picks things up so instead of guessing at reasons why he may not practice as much lets use the one given to us by RJ.

 

That is ridiculous, tantamount to saying you can't have a feeling on something one way or the other without absolute unequivocal evidence. Tell that to many people who belive in God, or all those who don't, for that matter.

 

Again you use author quotes as evidence for how the BOOKS (alone) say Galad is better, which continues to blow my mind. Maybe if the quotes were printed in the jacket or something you might have me.

 

Oh, and all the characters who say Galad is awesome, but they don't have the comparisons you seem to require me to have, but you'll accept their word for it!

 

And you still insist on ignoring the question about Brandon's quote your argument just cannot reconcile. Did Brandon pull Gawyn's name from a hat? Is that why he chose to add an explanation for Gawyn's position alone? Or maybe, just possibly, we can use the secret power of inductive reasoning to induce that Brandon felt it needed explaining, which is why he explained it. I know that seems like an insurmountable logical step for you -- that he did something cause he felt it needed doing -- but I don't think it's truly so unreasonable.

 

Edit: Oh and he is 1 win away given the numbers presented. You can multiply any fractions up and make then look bigger. One wins more ofen, one less? That would be true for 49.99999% and 50.00001%. Saying it like that also doesn't make the gap bigger than it is. If Galad won 2/5 and Gaywn 1/5 that's not closer because now they're both less than 50%!

 

Out of 5 matches, Galad won 1 more than Gawyn did. That is the fact from that scene. Also that Galad doesn't practice as much, and Gawyn is motivated.

 

How dare anyone think Gawyn may have surpassed Galad!

[Suttree]

Again you use author quotes as evidence for how the BOOKS (alone) say Galad is better, which continues to blow my mind. Maybe if the quotes were printed in the jacket or something you might have me.

 

Oh, and all the characters who say Galad is awesome, but they don't have the comparisons you seem to require me to have, but you'll accept their word for it!

 

1. Multiple characters in text say Galad is the better swordsman. Think it's fair to say they are comparing their respective sword skills in making the decision. Everyone who has watched them fight says Galad is the better of the two without exception.

 

2. Author rankings support what characters say in text, hence supporting what is written in the text.

 

3. We do have a comparison of the type I require you to have, Gawyn gives it to us when he says Galad wins more against a common opponent hence an objective result.

 

So when we have an objective result and the authors confirm that the in text characters opinions are correct why would we not take their word?

 

Out of 5 matches, Galad won 1 more than Gawyn did. That is the fact from that scene. Also that Galad doesn't practice as much, and Gawyn is motivated.

 

The facts from the scene are Galad wins not only more often but also the majority of the time against Hammar while Gawyn does not. Those are not the only times they have faced Hammar and Gawyn was seriously pleased and surprised that he actually won 2, while Galad winning 3 was business as usual(anyone who has been involved in athletic contests understands the difference 2/5 v 3/5 actually indicates). Objective result in favor of Galad, much like the duel against Mat where Gawyn was dispatched in seconds and Galad fared better. We are told Galad picks up things significantly faster than Gawyn. Galad was drifting away from the WT at the time and that as much as anything could account for him not showing up at the yard as often during that period of time. Nothing in his character indicates someone who would slack off at honing his fighting skills.

 

It's not fact, it's simply HIGHLY likely based on two seconds of contemplation on the quote. After like a thousand posts you've still never answered why he would randomly choose Gawyn to explain if he didn't need explaining as you claim. The answer: because he needed explaining (according to Brandon [likely], and me).

 

That's funny because you have stated it as fact multiple times in the thread and been called out on it by numerous people.

 

There is no need for me to answer as I am not the one fictionalizing the authors motivation and using it as one of the main pillars to hold up a point that isn't supported. You have no idea how likely(highly likely, likely or otherwise) it is because you don't know his reason for saying it. For the last time I make no claims either way. You on the other hand are guessing and as such it doesn't work in supporting your point. Get a quote from BS as to why and then you can do so but until then it matters little why you think he said it. You can work yourself into a little frenzy and attempt to throw out peevish barbs all you want but as others have mentioned the lucky comment only works for those looking very hard for a way around a straight forward answer.

 

That may have been harsh, but my point was less about all the women swooning (thought that certainly doesn't help), and more about Galad being the "perfect" one, and Gawyn being the "other" one. You don't think looks and poise has any effect on same-sex interaction? There's countless research about beauty and perception on social interaction.

 

My mother is a twin, and she remembers growing up as "Jen's sister" instead of by her actual name because she wasn't the "star". Even Egwene had to get over being Galad-struck before she realized she found Gawyn was actually more beautiful to her. And a lot of it has to do with how Gawyn differs to Galad. That would apply to everyone, including Mat. Gawyn didn't start finding his own self confidence until they separated and the tower split, and he started leading men for truth.

 

LOL may be harsh?!?! So basically your point is Mat thinks Galad is the better swordsman because he is hot. Err...(steps back for a sec)...uhhmm(still laughing uproariously)...Mastar Ablar has already addressed this about as good as anyone could but that may be the most laughable take I have ever seen on DM.

[Jon Paul]

Hell, he danced with Belthamel.

 

That made me laugh so hard. I can just imagine..

 

Seanchan noble: [sneer]Why should we accept you as the Prince of Ravens?[/sneer]

Mat: I'm the greatest general of the age, I can handle my self in a fight and I have the Dark One's own luck.

Sean noble: [sneer]Is.. that it?[/sneer]

Mat: I danced with one of the Forsaken.

Seanchan noble: O.O

[Kahsm]

Author rankings support what characters say in text, hence supporting what is written in the text.

Again, there's no author quote that says, "the books clearly show Galad is better". None, zero, zip. There are only quotes that say, "Galad IS better". So no, the author quotes do not prove that the books say Gawyn is better. Unless you're trying to assume the motivation of the authors of the quotes, but then you told me off for doing that, so I know you wouldn't be trying it yourself.

 

Out of 5 matches, Galad won 1 more than Gawyn did. That is the fact from that scene. Also that Galad doesn't practice as much, and Gawyn is motivated.

 

The facts from the scene are Galad wins not only more often but also the majority of the time against Hammar while Gawyn does not. Those are not the only times they have faced Hammar and Gawyn was seriously pleased and surprised that he actually won 2, while Galad winning 3 was business as usual(anyone who has been involved in athletic contests understands the difference 2/5 v 3/5 actually indicates). Objective result in favor of Galad, much like the duel against Mat where Gawyn was dispatched in seconds and Galad fared better. We are told Galad picks up things significantly faster than Gawyn. Galad was drifting away from the WT at the time and that as much as anything could account for him not showing up at the yard as often during that period of time. Nothing in his character indicates someone who would slack off at honing his fighting skills.

 

Well, Gawyn killed Hammar, so that's 1/1 when it counted and pretty much says Gawyn's surprise was likely part of his humility and deference to Galad. Pretty suggestive that he's better even at that point than he was going 2/5, assuming he wasn't mentally handicapping himself. Also, your whole majority argument is so brutally flawed and I already explained why. Just because Galad won more than 50% (not some magic super-number by the way) does not make the feat exponentially better, it's simply a single extra win out of 5, that's how math works.

 

I don't get how you can say "things come easily" and then "nothing suggest he doesn't work hard". How about the fact that things seem to come easily? How about the fact that he loses to hammar 2/5 times and nothing explicitly says that bothers him. Doing the right thing all the time doesn't equate to being obsessed with being the best. That sort of ambition might even be distasteful for a guy like that. Also, picking things up quickly doesn't mean he perfects them quickly. You're assuming a lot based on a very little. It COULD all be true, sure. And it probably is since, yes, we have author quotes that say Galad is better, but I said Gawyn is driving to get better based on Gawyn saying he needed to work harder... that's not nearly as much of a stretch to make based on what's actually written.

 

And of course there's Leane's reaction to hearing Gawyn killed Hammar, which goes to my argument about how people simply underestimate and expect less from Gawyn because he's Galad's brother, and how could anyone be better than GALAD?!

"That might be a good idea,'' Leane said.' 'I always thought Galad was the more dangerous of those two,

but I am no longer sure. Hammar, and Coulin. ..." She shivered.

 

That alone puts into question all the other character's opinions, as they could be based on the idea that Galad SHOULD be the perfect one, the better one, not that he actually is.

 

But then you'll use the author quote to prove the characters right, which has nothing to do with my argument as to who the books alone suggest should be better. Can you see why that continues to exasperate me now?

 

"The books don't say Galad is better"

"The characters say Galad is better"

[start infinite loop]

"But the characters could be wrong"

"But author quotes say the characters are right"

"But the quotes aren't in the books"

"But the characters say it and they're in the books"

[end loop]

 

It's not fact, it's simply HIGHLY likely based on two seconds of contemplation on the quote. After like a thousand posts you've still never answered why he would randomly choose Gawyn to explain if he didn't need explaining as you claim. The answer: because he needed explaining (according to Brandon [likely], and me).

For the last time I make no claims either way. You on the other hand are guessing and as such it doesn't work in supporting your point. Get a quote from BS as to why and then you can do so but until then it matters little why you think he said it. You can work yourself into a little frenzy and attempt to throw out peevish barbs all you want but as others have mentioned the lucky comment only works for those looking very hard for a way around a straight forward answer.

 

So you refuse to answer. Well I think I can infer pretty accurately from that too. Since the lack of a claim is a claim in itself. Obviously you must admit there exists a reason he did it, yes? Unless you think Brandon is insane, he most likely has a reason. You just refuse to consider what it might be because no logical reason supports your position. That is probably the reason you, "make no claims either way".

 

Translation: "I don't know, and since your reason, which makes perfect logical sense, only supports your position, I refuse to answer"

 

Yes, the answer is very straightforward as to who is better. However, my question is about who the books suggest is better. That is a completely different question. And since there is no quote as to that, I use what I have to make a logical inference.

 

That may have been harsh, but my point was less about all the women swooning (thought that certainly doesn't help), and more about Galad being the "perfect" one, and Gawyn being the "other" one. You don't think looks and poise has any effect on same-sex interaction? There's countless research about beauty and perception on social interaction.

 

My mother is a twin, and she remembers growing up as "Jen's sister" instead of by her actual name because she wasn't the "star". Even Egwene had to get over being Galad-struck before she realized she found Gawyn was actually more beautiful to her. And a lot of it has to do with how Gawyn differs to Galad. That would apply to everyone, including Mat. Gawyn didn't start finding his own self confidence until they separated and the tower split, and he started leading men for truth.

 

LOL may be harsh?!?! So basically your point is Mat thinks Galad is the better swordsman because he is hot. Err...(steps back for a sec)...uhhmm(still laughing uproariously)...Mastar Ablar has already addressed this about as good as anyone could but that may be the most laughable take I have ever seen on DM.

 

Our posts are getting long, and it's been a long debate, so I'll assume you're just getting tired of reading thoroughly. My original point was taken as Mat thinks Galad is hot, I accepted fault for that and explained why that is actually not the case already. It has to do with expectation based on looks, poise, social status, confidence. Basically people see (and believe) what they expect to see (and believe). There's plenty of that happening all through WOT. And now I've added Leane's comment where she questions that perception she had.

 

That study I linked was done with kids 4-6, there's no sexy/hot involved there. Yes, if you simplify my argument down so much that it's no longer even an accurate portrayal of what I said, I could see how it sounds silly.

 

Oh and Gawyn was dispatched quickly because he was attacked first and both Gawyn and Galad, at the start, underestimated Mat. I don't think that proves anything since Galad got a chance to smarten up. Hell, maybe Mat dispatched the bigger threat first?

[Suttree]

Just because Galad won more than 50% (not some magic super-number by the way) does not make the feat exponentially better, it's simply a single extra win out of 5, that's how math works.

 

Funny, take pro tennis for instance. Wimbledon certainly doesn't agree with you. All you are showing is an utter lack of understanding in how competitive sports work. 1 or 2 can be a fluke, however when you take a sequence of contests out over 5 matches the more skilled competitor will win the majority of the time ala Galad.

 

That is probably the reason you, "make no claims either way".

 

Sigh. Even guessing about my motivations now eh Kael? Well you are consistent I'll give you that. For the record this is a debate and I am not the one attempting to prove the unfounded point. The onus of proof is on you not me, that is how it works. So far you have shown that you have a wild imagination and are great at making feeble excuses as to why all the reasons given in text for Galad being better(character quotes on their prowess) and appearing better(objective results against common opponents) might not be so, that is all. All we have been saying in relation to Brandon's lucky comment is you don't know either way and as such can not state his motivation as fact to support your point as you have falsely done in this thread.

 

Author rankings support what characters say in text, hence supporting what is written in the text.

Again, there's no author quote that says, "the books clearly show Galad is better". None, zero, zip. There are only quotes that say, "Galad IS better". So no, the author quotes do not prove that the books say Gawyn is better. Unless you're trying to assume the motivation of the authors of the quotes, but then you told me off for doing that, so I know you wouldn't be trying it yourself.

 

What are you even trying to say here? The lengths to which you are grasping at straws have become absurd. The characters in text don't agree with you, the authors don't agree with you, the objective results don't agree with you. Spin all you like, but nothing will change that.

 

The characters(Mat included) are said to judge the two off their respective skills with the sword, nothing more. No amount of fabricated excuses as to why they are actually judging some sort of beauty pageant taking into account looks and poise helps your cause. In fact that is all you have been able to offer, excuses as to why all the statements and results given in text might not actually mean what they say.

 

However, my question is about who the books suggest is better.

 

Lastly the characters stating who is better combined with objective results IS the books suggesting who is better which answers your question. No reason for you to be frustrated as you are the one refusing what is plainly written. No amount of denying it is going to change this fact. I have no idea why you have been taking this route as opposed to comparing fight descriptions and attempting to prove your point in that way. You say Gawyn is shown to clearly be the better fighter? Stop bogging the debate down splitting hairs over perceived meaning, put the descriptions up side by side and prove it.

 

Edit: As for Leane it is the opinion of one woman who didn't even see the fight, that is all. As she has no idea how warders were killed(fair fight, stabbed from behind, did it happen in a crowd?) she is unqualified to say how dangerous he is based on that fight. You can not make it some blanket statement calling in to doubt the multiple characters who state Galad is the better. Your entire argument rests on guessing at motivations all the way from the characters through to BS. Maybe Gawyn says Galad is better because he feels inferior(whoops the objective result throws that out the window), maybe ALL the other characters say Galad is better because he is more poised and good looking(LOL), maybe Mat beat him more quickly because he was the more dangerous opponent? Since you love guessing, guess what? You have nothing concrete to support your opinion and until you do your words are wind.

[mandersen]

To me it seems pretty clear what's going on. Brandon is just better at writing action sequences (sorry if that's blasphemy). or at least, he puts more detail into them. And he poured all of that into the Gawyn fights. Hence Gawyn seeming to the the better. And Brandon, realizing this might be the case, gave us the "Lucky" clarification. After reading tGS and before seeing the author's quote, i was actually wondering if Gawyn is the best there is (though as a Lan fan i stubbornly refused to believe Gawyn or anyone could pass him up). So I get why there's a "text shows Gawyn is better" camp. But clearly it's a Jordan / Sanderson comparison rather than a Galad / Gawyn one.

[kght22]

To me it seems pretty clear what's going on. Brandon is just better at writing action sequences (sorry if that's blasphemy). or at least, he puts more detail into them. And he poured all of that into the Gawyn fights. Hence Gawyn seeming to the the better. And Brandon, realizing this might be the case, gave us the "Lucky" clarification. After reading tGS and before seeing the author's quote, i was actually wondering if Gawyn is the best there is (though as a Lan fan i stubbornly refused to believe Gawyn or anyone could pass him up). So I get why there's a "text shows Gawyn is better" camp. But clearly it's a Jordan / Sanderson comparison rather than a Galad / Gawyn one.

 

awww, don't slow them down with more reason. this has been too entertaining to watch. putting more reason into it will bog it down at this point. i like the passion/reason balance, its fun to see.

[Mr Ares]

Author rankings support what characters say in text, hence supporting what is written in the text.

Again, there's no author quote that says, "the books clearly show Galad is better". None, zero, zip. There are only quotes that say, "Galad IS better". So no, the author quotes do not prove that the books say Gawyn is better.

The only times we have a point of comparison in the books, Galad is the better. The only time we have a compariosn outside the books, Galad is better. It might appear to some that Gawyn is better, but that's a pretty subjective assessment of an indirect comparison. Now, it could be that some people used that indirect comparison of their respective achievements to show that Gawyn is better, and Sanderson was merely responding to that. I don't think that Gawyn looks better. I can see why people might think Gawyn looks better, but they are seeing something that really isn't there. The books at no stage suggest Gawyn is better. People just let their imaginations run away with them. There is no author quote saying that Gawyn ever looked better than Galad either.

[Jon Paul]

Mostly. Rodel defended Maradon and Bryne led Salidar against the Tower, but for the most part, if you were going to characterize their strategies as a whole, Bryne is more defensively-minded and Ituralde is more offensive.

 

I'm not sure if I replied to this..

 

But Bryne is definitely not a defensive general. Remember he was humiliated by Siuan when he wanted to press against Murandy in one of their border wars? It just helps that Andor is such a powerful nation and is secure from most threats. You have to be either stupid or equally as powerful to go to war with them. Rodel learned the art of war in nearly constant wars with with Tanchico over Almoth Plane. Bashere and Agelmar were practically born with swords in their hands being Borderlanders. And Niall has campaigned the length and breadth of the land. I can see him having literally thought in almost every climate and environment.

 

What really surprises me is the lack of a Great Captain for Tear and Illian.

[Finnssss22]

Mostly. Rodel defended Maradon and Bryne led Salidar against the Tower, but for the most part, if you were going to characterize their strategies as a whole, Bryne is more defensively-minded and Ituralde is more offensive.

 

I'm not sure if I replied to this..

 

But Bryne is definitely not a defensive general. Remember he was humiliated by Siuan when he wanted to press against Murandy in one of their border wars? It just helps that Andor is such a powerful nation and is secure from most threats. You have to be either stupid or equally as powerful to go to war with them. Rodel learned the art of war in nearly constant wars with with Tanchico over Almoth Plane. Bashere and Agelmar were practically born with swords in their hands being Borderlanders. And Niall has campaigned the length and breadth of the land. I can see him having literally thought in almost every climate and environment.

 

What really surprises me is the lack of a Great Captain for Tear and Illian.

 

 

Agreed. You can't be a Great Captain being pigeonholed into set roles. It's about fighting battles on your terms. Where you want, when you want and how you want.

I'm actually surprised Rodel isn't being touted as the best of the remaining Great Captains based on his recent exploits and airtime.

I mean it's the same thing as Galad vs Gawyn right.

[Dagon Thyne]

Technically it's not really about being worthy. it really depends on whether you are able to defeat a Blademaster in combat. For example, if he wanted to, Mat could easily become one, because his luck would allow him to defeat a blademaster the same way he defeated Galad and Gawyne. He would not REALLY be worthy since it was not real skill that he used to defeat him, but willing the duel would make him a blademaster. I'm sure there are several blademasters in the past who lost fights because they either underestimated an opponant and lowered their guard, or someone got in a lucky attack. Being worthy of something is not really a part of whether or acchieve it in some cases.

[Suttree]

Technically it's not really about being worthy. it really depends on whether you are able to defeat a Blademaster in combat. For example, if he wanted to, Mat could easily become one, because his luck would allow him to defeat a blademaster the same way he defeated Galad and Gawyne.

 

He defeated Galad and Gawyn because he was wielding a quarterstaff, just like the farmer that beat Jearom. Put a sword in his hand and it would be a totally different story.

[Dagon Thyne]

Technically it's not really about being worthy. it really depends on whether you are able to defeat a Blademaster in combat. For example, if he wanted to, Mat could easily become one, because his luck would allow him to defeat a blademaster the same way he defeated Galad and Gawyne.

 

He defeated Galad and Gawyn because he was wielding a quarterstaff, just like the farmer that beat Jearom. Put a sword in his hand and it would be a totally different story.

 

It was his battleluck that allowed him to defeat them. Anyone else using a quarterstaff, even someone equally skilled with one as mat is would have lost to them.

[Suttree]

Technically it's not really about being worthy. it really depends on whether you are able to defeat a Blademaster in combat. For example, if he wanted to, Mat could easily become one, because his luck would allow him to defeat a blademaster the same way he defeated Galad and Gawyne.

 

He defeated Galad and Gawyn because he was wielding a quarterstaff, just like the farmer that beat Jearom. Put a sword in his hand and it would be a totally different story.

 

It was his battleluck that allowed him to defeat them. Anyone else using a quarterstaff, even someone equally skilled with one as mat is would have lost to them.

 

Nothing in the fight description indicates luck in the slightest. I'm not sure when the first example of Mat's luck actually crops up, was it that early? Also Hammar the weapons master didn't think it was lucky as he used the Jearom story showing the greatest swordsman to ever lives only lose came against a farmer with a quarterstaff.

 

Mat has zero skill with a sword, even his luck at present would not allow him to defeat a blademaster 1 on 1.

[MasterAblar]

Technically it's not really about being worthy. it really depends on whether you are able to defeat a Blademaster in combat. For example, if he wanted to, Mat could easily become one, because his luck would allow him to defeat a blademaster the same way he defeated Galad and Gawyne.

 

He defeated Galad and Gawyn because he was wielding a quarterstaff, just like the farmer that beat Jearom. Put a sword in his hand and it would be a totally different story.

 

It was his battleluck that allowed him to defeat them. Anyone else using a quarterstaff, even someone equally skilled with one as mat is would have lost to them.

 

Nothing in the fight description indicates luck in the slightest. I'm not sure when the first example of Mat's luck actually crops up, was it that early? Also Hammar the weapons master didn't think it was lucky as he used the Jearom story showing the greatest swordsman to ever lives only lose came against a farmer with a quarterstaff.

 

Mat has zero skill with a sword, even his luck at present would not allow him to defeat a blademaster 1 on 1.

 

Well, Mat is actually somewhat surprised at himself, and definitely asks for his luck to stay with him when he's fighting them. As for Hammar, well luck isn't always evident, like your opponent slipping at the worst moment, or yourself slipping so that your opponent's strike misses you. It could just be guessing correctly, or striking precisely where your opponent wasn't expecting. And admitidly his skill did seem to come somewhat out of nowhere. It could be he just didn't realise how good he was of course.

 

The first time Mat's luck is put in evidence, is when he's gambling in Tar Valon, shortly after his fight with Galad and Gawyn.

[Rose]

I think it was a mixture of both. It wasn't just luck, that's for sure. He wouldn't have agreed to face them and made such a high wager if he didn't think he could win. He was, however, still recovering and very weak, and while fighting, he thinks more than once that he hopes his luck doesn't abandon him. Except he's not sure whether or not it's luck. Maybe it was just the beginnings of it. Remember also that Mat had always been fairly lucky, just much less than he becomes after that. Also, I agree with Suttree that he won because he had a quarterstaff, and would probably have been useless with a sword. Here are some quotes:

 

Mat to Gawyn and Galad:

 

"I don't know much about swords. I think I'll put my trust in a good bow or a good quarterstaff. I know how to use those."

 

"I could do fairly well against either of you, I think, if you had a sword and I had my quarterstaff."

 

And after they don't believe him:

 

He was going to do it because it would be fun. And it might earn some coin. His luck would not even have to be back.

 

The Blademaster's take on it:

 

The blocky Warder joined them, thick black eyebrows pulled down in a scowl.

"You think you two are good enough with your swords to take a boy with a stick?"

"It would not be fair, Hammar Gaidin," Galad said.

"He has been sick," Gawyn added. "There is no need for this."

"To the yard!" Hammar grated with a jerk of his head back over his shoulder.

 

Realizing he's weaker than he thought, Mat thinks to himself before starting:

 

I have to win this. I opened my fool mouth and now I have to win. I can't afford to lose those two marks. Without those to build on, it will take forever to win the money I need. When he turned back, the quarterstaff in both hands before him, Gawyn and Galad were already waiting out where they had been practicing. I have to win. "Luck," he muttered. "Time to toss the dice."

 

During the actual fight, after defeating Gawyn:

 

He still had Galad to deal with, and from the way Galad was poised on the balls of his feet, sword raised precisely, he had begun to take Mat seriously. Mat's legs chose that moment to tremble. Light, I can't weaken now! But he could feel it creeping back in, the wobbly feeling, the hunger as if he had not eaten for days. If I wait for him to come to me, I'll fall on my face! It was hard to keep his knees straight as he started forward. Luck, stay with me! From the first blow, he knew that luck, or skill, or whatever had brought him this far, was still there.

 

And then he proceeds to beat Galad.

 

The Warder raised his voice to shout: "Who was the greatest Blademaster of all time?" From the throats of dozens of students came a bellow. "Jearom, Gaidin!" "Yes!" Hammar shouted, turning to make sure all heard. "During his lifetime, Jearom fought over ten thousand times in battle and single combat. He was defeated once. By a farmer with a quarterstaff. Remember that! Remember what you just saw."

 

And then Mat almost faints. Later on, he also mentions that he isn't nearly as good as Tam or his own father, who wins the quarterstaff almost every year at Bel Tine.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm sure that luck played some small role, but as I recall from his search for a sport (horses) where his luck wouldn't poison the results, Mat's luck doesn't truly shine in events where greater skill is required.

 

I expect this distinguishing battle results from the slight inferiority of the sword to the staff in single combat. Not as a deadly weapon, no' you'd be hard pressed to kill a skilled opponent with your staff because it would require you to get in a shot against an unprotected point and it's not as solid as a club. But in dexterity and maneuverability, you're basically using an instrument that attacks from both ends, and in general has greater reach which allows you to overpower them unless they're fighting very defensively.

 

No expert, of course, and that observation should be taken with a grain of salt, but I think that's the point Hammar was trying to get across here: Assuming that one's blademastery should kick all behind in any fight will get one killed in a fight against the most humble appearing of all weapons.