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phantasypunk

Biggest inconsistencies in WOT?

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This is a pre-industrial society, they are just beginning to develope the "modern" of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Before them it took 25-50% of the population on farms to feed society.

 

While that is true, Bob's estimate of a necessary population of 100 million people to support 2 million fighting men is also overdone. Soldiers, including conscripts, can form between 10 to 15 percent of a pre-industrial society. That means a population of 14-20 million, not 100 million.

 

We haven't seen Jordan's numbers for what is in the Blight. So accusing him of pulling millions of Trollocs out of his back pocket is premature. Also, the percentage of Trollocs who are in the "army" is much higher than the percentage in human populations. A Trolloc army of 2-3 million could be as much as a third of their population. 6-9 million Trollocs total is not unreasonable. The Blight is pretty big, and the Trollocs raid constantly into the Borderlands, for supplies as much as anything else.

 

I don't necessarily agree with Luckers estimates, but truthfully, he's spent more time on the question than any one else I've seen post here, so I don't necessarily dismiss his numbers either.

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Well, you just have to remember that wot isn't necissarilly our pre-industrial society. They are mixed and matched along many different lines.

The sizes of the farms & the sizes of the families really depends on how many people they can feed from the farm alone.. In a summer a 'large garden' is normally used to feed the family. The farms probably contain enough cattle to feed several people, milk, + breeding.. They most likely sell there food to the local town where they then sell it to the towns people.

Now ask your self this. Why would there be 'towns' in a pre-industrial, completely agricultural society?

Well, a few things come to mind.

Government

Pub,

possibly something like a church, or something. *though wot you don't really see anything like an organized religion*

Then theres wiseones..

Within the town there most likely are 'retired' people. The question we have to ask is.. What 'jobs' are there in the towns for people to do?

Well, theres obviously like I said the government *mayor*

Pub,

Healers,

and the local 'market'. So those 4 alone = 4 houses. Then people obviously build houses near those. So now you have a small town of around 10-20 houses.

But if only 4 of the houses are for gov/pub/healer/market. Where do the other 6-16 go?

They probably work in the farms that are a mile away.

where they also intern, help with the farming, and selling to the market, or bringing to there various storage sites.

The two rivers is a completely self sustaining area.

They have more then enough farms to feed everyone in there farmhouses, and in the villages. its a symbotic relation ship.

And from what we learned in eotw, there were probably about half the number of farms in emonds field as there were houses in the towns. But people in the towns probably worked at the farms, or helped trade goods from them.

so 25-50% of the population could easilly be farming.

 

But places like Caemlyn Cairhan offer a particular conundrom.

It be like, how did pre-industurial England feed its people in there cities? And yes they had a city in pre-industrial england.. Not in the same 'scale' obviously.

They most likely were surrounded by towns, and farms. Who all sold there goods to the city. And the cities them selves, contained who knows what! *probably lots of places involving selling goods. Speaking of such I forgot to add 'black smith' above.

Which as we know, Perrin lived a few miles from emonds field with his folks but worked in town at the black smith. So the people working for each other most likely goes both ways.*

Anyways, While wot sized cities might seem unfeasable. we have to remember.

This is Fantasy, not reality.

Its a book, do you believe everything you read?

And thirdly, you aren't supposed to question things like 'how can a city this size exist' your supposed to ask questions actually dealing with the books them selves. I mean, your going around saying. "well that obviously can't happen because theres no way a city in the middle of nowhere is able to support its self" is kinda pointless, because authors are like directors, They only focus on one part of the 'world' they don't show you all the surrounding features. What you see isn't neccissarilly what it is. And questioning things that you Don't see, particularilly these things that aren't even errors in the text, like say rj says 'caemlyn is a beutiful city with majestic buildings.' but later says 'caemlyn is a dark and dreadful city filled with huligans, all the buildings collapsing'

Now thats an error! or the pillow one that someone mentioned earlier.

Those are actually mentioned in the books, and on screen. Unlike questioning something that isn't anywhere near onscreen. Its called Nitpicking. your trying to find every single thing in the book that could possibly be 'bad at it' just to give yoru self a reason to not like it. bob is very famous for that. He reads the books, but he loathes them, so he nitpicks every single detail he can, just to give him self more and more reason to dislike it.

Yet, he's the same kind of person who complains about RJ going into far to much detail! Yet if he elaborated on how the cities function, he'd be doing what you don't like! GOING INTO TO MUCH DETAIL!

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Here's one ...

 

 

After Nynaeve battles Moghedien in Tanchico, she finds the Seal hidden in an illusion created by Moghedien. The flows are described as so minute that Nynaeve could barely discern them. But she could see them.

 

If Moghedien was really trying to hide it, why didn't she just invert the flows? Because I don't think RJ had invented inverting the flows yet.

 

Can anybody find an instance of inverting the flows before that duel (near the end of The Shadow Rising)? Because Moghedien surely would be smart enough to hide something with inverted flows in a palace full of channelers (from whom she was also hiding).

 

I'm not sure if thats an "inconsistency", but it sure struck me as odd.

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That would be more along the lines of a plot evolution inconsitancy... if you know what I mean...

Basically reading the first 4-6 books, then reading the last 7-12. you do see a noticable differece.

When RJ wrote eotw, he thought he'd finish it in 3 books. So he was trying to keep it concise, and only show so much of the 'power' As time went on, he basically realized this series is FAR more epic then he thought. So he kept expanding and expanding it.

By the end of book 2 your thinking.. hmm this could end in 1 maybe two books.

By the end of book 3 your going hmmmm this could in 2 mabye 3 books. Fastforward a few years, we aren'te ven sure if RJ can finish the series in 1 book, let alone 20 more. Even though he said he'll finish it in 1, which may have to be split into 12 sections just to carry it around in a wheel barrow!!!

 

Point being, the longer the series goes on, the more the one power, politics, regions, cultures gets far more expanded. If eotw/gh/dr/ect were re-read and a bit fresher upstairs, I could give you specific examples with this.. one particularilly being comparing how the op worked in the 1st/2nd/3rd books compared to the later books.. its ooooh so much simplar back then compared to now!

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It seems an "inconsistency" to me that the males are taking the blame for the Breaking when they were the ones who took the initiative in sealing the Dark One at the expense of their own sanities. Whilst the women Aes Sedai became the rulers of the world for being worthless cowards. They might have completly sealed the Dark One had they showed some backbone. Though I guess it's more of an irony than an inconsistency...

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*wink* It wasn't a result of them being cowards, it was a result of them, once again, thinking they knew more or knew better than a man. *wink*

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Guest Majsju
*wink* It wasn't a result of them being cowards, it was a result of them, once again, thinking they knew more or knew better than a man. *wink*

 

And considering how royally LTT and his "men" screwed up, they were probably right about it.

 

Thiinking things through before rushing off is not cowardice, it just shows you're not stupid :wink:

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They were endlessly "thinking it through". The technical term for that is dithering. It's what those who are incapable of appeciating the tactical and strategic realities call "analysis."

 

There was no further time for such analysis. It was ACT NOW or be utterly defeated.

 

The women dithered and the men acted. If the result was less than unqualified success, the women have noone to blame for that but themselves.

 

Of course, since there were men handy to scapegoat, it somehow became "all their fault."

 

But, in the last analysis, did they "screw it up" at all?

 

If their "failure" wasn't part of the overall Age Lace, then the Wheel would have woven a different ending to that endeavor. Since it didn't, that so-called failure was actually part of the Creator's overall design for mankind.

 

Thus, the men accomplished exactly what the Creator meant for them to accomplish.

 

That's the problem with "Divine Design", "Age Lace", "the Wheel", and a preordained universe. Ultimately there are no mistakes.

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in 100000 pages' date=' do we never see ANY of the main characters go to the bathroom!!

 

I'm not sure which book - I think it's either CoT or KoD. Mat catches Tuon wandering off somewhere while there are Seanchan guards around and he gets upset. He says something along the lines of "Where the hell are you going?" and she turns around coolly and says, "If you must know, Toy, I am going to go find the necessary."

Hilarious.

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I'm perplexed by the whole connection to the Dark One black chord deal.

RJ says that the chord is not a connection to the Dark One, but in Asmodean's case, it's basically implied that the chord is a connection to the Dark One.

 

I'm not sure now if I'm supposed to believe that it's actually a filter for tainted Saidin or...I don't know...

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There's the cord and there are also the tendrils.

 

The cord seems to be that through which the Forsaken males draw filtered saidin.

 

I've seen no explanation for what the tendrils do or why they are there.

 

In Asmo's case, Rand severed them all, and in the process disconnected Asmo from all that had been sustaining his immortality. What else that may have accomplished ????

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Those cords may also be another thing that RJ invented early on that got scrapped.. We haven't seen any of this in the last 4 books, afaik.

 

For all we know the 'white cord' we see on rand in the eotw, may just as easilly be explained as rands connection to the op/saidain, and the black cord being asmo's, ishy's cord to the Do/sadian/TP.

For all we know, in the earlier books rand is able to 'see' the connection someone has to the op. Where as in later books they can't see it but can only merely 'guess' as to where its located.. sorta..they can feel it, but they can't see it?

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yo sinisterdeath, has anyone told you this before? I spent just under 5 minutes staring at your signature and i've come up with the conclusion that it is completely retarded. Either that or i am completely retarded because i dont get any of it...

Maybe someone should start a thread where ppl can explain what their messed up sigs actually say.

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*wink* It wasn't a result of them being cowards' date=' it was a result of them, once again, thinking they knew more or knew better than a man. *wink*[/quote']

 

And considering how royally LTT and his "men" screwed up, they were probably right about it.

 

Thiinking things through before rushing off is not cowardice, it just shows you're not stupid :wink:

 

Oh is that so, O wise Maju? How about what's said in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time page 57 regarding the female Aes Sedai when Lews Therin's plan was the only remaining option: "in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction"? If that's not cowardice then I'm the king of France! :)

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yo sinisterdeath' date=' has anyone told you this before? I spent just under 5 minutes staring at your signature and i've come up with the conclusion that it is completely retarded. Either that or i am completely retarded because i dont get any of it...

Maybe someone should start a thread where ppl can explain what their messed up sigs actually say.[/quote']

 

:lol: "Retarded" is an understatement in this case. :lol:

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Quote "There are neither beginings or endings in the turning of the Wheel, but is was a begining."

 

How can it be a begining if there are no beginings? Unquote

 

I am glad Im not the only person who noticed this-when I first started EotW I thought erm...that sounds wrong

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Guest Majsju
Oh is that so, O wise Maju? How about what's said in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time page 57 regarding the female Aes Sedai when Lews Therin's plan was the only remaining option: "in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction"? If that's not cowardice then I'm the king of France!

 

And we all know what happened last time smmeone tried to be king of France...;)

 

Had the female Aes Sedai jumped in on LTT's plan, we would not be reading WOT, because there would be nothing to read about. A world where both Saidin And Saidar were tainted would not survive very long.

 

If someone saves the world by dithering, I'm all in favour of dithering.

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Oh is that so' date=' O wise Maju? How about what's said in Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time page 57 regarding the female Aes Sedai when Lews Therin's plan was the only remaining option: "in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction"? If that's not cowardice then I'm the king of France![/quote']

 

And we all know what happened last time smmeone tried to be king of France...;)

 

Had the female Aes Sedai jumped in on LTT's plan, we would not be reading WOT, because there would be nothing to read about. A world where both Saidin And Saidar were tainted would not survive very long.

 

If someone saves the world by dithering, I'm all in favour of dithering.

 

O please. That's the best you got? First of all, there's the other possibility that WITH the female Aes Sedai, the sealing of the DO would have been MORE successful, and would NOT have tainted anything at all - which in your point of view, however, would have lead to us having nothing to read because there would

have been NO story? - wrong again. Because this is not REAL history but a piece of literature, and the author could have thought of something to keep the story going even had he decided to change this particular event.

 

Besides, the female AS' dithering didn't "save" the world, did they? How can you say so when they did "nothing"? When the men are the ones who prevented the victory of the Shadow by deciding to ACT? And therein lies my POINT - that the men taking the BLAME is unjustified. Your not making any sense at all. It's your God-given right, though. Each to his own.

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Yes, because we all know the women in the wot world are power hungery bitches, who are cowards, yet they rule thet world!

 

Listen, this is just how the plot goes.

Had both men and women did it, either all the op would be tainted *VERY PLAUSABLE**as RJ never denied that could happen* or the sealing would have went perfectly.

You might also want to consider this.

It wasn't ALL THE MALE channalers that went to the bore, infact less then 100 in the world agreed enough with LTT to join him on a sucide mission. All the other aes sedia, female and male thought it was a dumb Idea.

But because the DO lashed out and tainted Sadian, all the men left in the world who could channel, went mad.

They weren't cowards, hell, they were WAITING for those two very special sa'angrael to be finished, cuase you know it could like, destroy the creator?

So Hell, who knows, maybe using the sa'angrael the bore could have been sealed much better then it was? OR they could have destroyed the DO...

The men toke the blame, because it was only men who went there. Escentially, MEN destroyed the world.

It wasn't men in general, but male channalers.

Which of course went with the pursecution of all male channalers for 3000+ years. *with reason!*

Women just use the 'well you broke the world!' card when they want men to shut up. But relatively, women 'arent' completely in power in the world.

The majority of the randland countries, men are the 'kings'. Only a handful women 'rule'. IN Aiel Culture, men and women rule in different aspects. It be like house vs senate. Basically aiel men rule the 'wars', and women ruled the 'social society'.

Both equally powerful because there society is based on warfare.

 

Seanchan can be run by women or men, currently by women. Same with That country beyond the Aiel wastes.

 

I'd go on more about this but all I can say right now is.

'your wrong!'

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dude did you read my post? Your signature is the most retarded thing i've ever seen. i've even wasted oh...around 7 mintues now trying to see any sense in it but it is TOTALLY PATHETICALLY STUPID! So stupid in fact that if you don't explain to us what it actually means, my (and other fellow sane people) head(s) will explode and it will be all your fault. Don't think its funny, cos not explaining it makes you just as stupid as your sig.

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To return to the topic of inconsistencies...

 

What about Padan Fain?

 

Jordan has said that the evils of the DO and Mordeth are polar opposites. That they attract each other.

 

Rand used that fact to cleanse saidin, funneling all of the taint on saidin into Shadar Logoth where the two polar opposites canceled each other, removing the city from existence in the process.

 

Yet, we have Fain. A person repeatedly modified by the DO, incorporating aspects of the DO, who also incorporates the soul and most essential essence of Mordeth.

 

How is it the he hasn't canceled himself? Imploded? Exploded? Winked into nothingness?

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Bob, why hasn't rands wounds been healed then?

Fain was only touched by the darkone. He wasn't the darkone, nor was he the 'taint'. Escentially, what we have is Shadar Logoths Taint, and the do's taint can cancel each other out.

But then you have Mordeth whom started the evil that is shadar logoth. THey are both evil via the very definition. But they wanted to fight fire with fire.

 

And since by that time, Fain's soul mission in life was to kill rand.

Mordeth was pursueing rand/perrin/mat/ect.

So they shared a common goal.

For all we know, because Mordeth is a 'sentient being' he may very well not be like the nonsentient being that is shadar logoth.

Meaning he doesn't follow the same set of rules. So instead of 'imploding' when they contacted, or fighting till each other died, they merged into an even greater entity. And by that time Fain wasn't even in the do's favor, hell he was practically like mordeth in the fact that he would basically kill anyone and everyone. Basically, a rogue.

But at least the inconsistancy you brought up is a bit more valid then your past ones! Given what we know, you can make two very different logical conclusions.. As we know, the 'cloud' in shadar logoth, and Mordeth are two different entities, of the same 'nature', or 'same evil' shadar logoth's cloud of death has a rule set, where as mordeth, doesn't necissarilly follow any rule but the one he makes up..

Of course, I think theres supposed to be similarities and differences between the to.

The tain on sadian, quite simply was the do's evil going into it.

Shadar Logoth's evil is still evil but it despises the shadow, its an unthinking, kililng machine.

So here you have two opposites.

Rand was orginally stabbed in the side with a 'staff' tainted by the do.

He was then later slashed in the side with a dagger by fain.

Why haven't the wounds killed each other?

Well one reason could be is that they are both trying to kill rand, and each other.

Then you have Fain, and Mordeth.

Fain became a 'rogue' darkfriend. Once Loyal, but completely engulfed in insanity trying to find and destroy Rand.

Mordeth despises the shadow, and kills it like flies. He was 'fooled' and attempted to destroy Rand.

So they 'may' have a common goal, and since fain was only 'touched' but not 'tainted' by the do, instead of mordeth destroying fain, he merged with fain to create a new entity. As you might not have noticed, Mordeth couldn't leave Shadar Logoth, his power came from that town. By merging with Fain, he could draw on the darkones 'touched' evil, and still be a guiding force in Fain. One reason Fain probably wanted the dagger so badly, is quite simply we know Items that have been tainted by Shadar logoth, when they leave still emit the 'deadly' evil taint. So Fain/Mordeth, possibly uses it to further take control of Fain. As his 'power source'...

If anything, the 'touched fain' could have been destroyed, but his 'gift' still remains. *meaning the hold the do had on fain is gone, but his 'gift' to find rand is still there, wich could be atributed to his possesion of the dagger..

 

Anywho i'll stop babling now.

*I hope I used the right name, mordeth, and not the forsaken guy! But if I did use the wrong name feel free to swap it with the right one*

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The reason Rand's wounds haven't healed or canceled each other is that since they can't be healed, the healers have walled them off. Both from Rand and from each other.

 

Given what happenened to Shadar Logath, that's probably a good move. Letting them come in contact would probably leave Rand, if he survived, with a nasty, gaping wound in his side.

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