Future Of the Asha'men

[Hyronimus]

Hi, this has been brought up in so many other threads but i couldn't find one that argued it out .

 

I got this idea from the three oaths thread, but it seemed a bit off topic there. Thinking about the scene with Androl where he imprints GUARD, DEFEND, PROTECT, on the bracer seemed to indicate a major change within the Asha'men. Added to Grady's comments about the lack of taint and I got wondering what people think of these two main issues.

 

First will the Asha'men take three oaths? Should they, and what would they be?

 

Here's my guesses:

GUARD against the shadow, or possibly GUARD the bore.

DEFEND the dragon peace, or possibly DEFEND the helpless/unarmed.

POTECT the Aes Sadai, or possibly the Aiel should they take up some form of the way of the leaf.

 

I like the last two because they put conditions on their use of force, which could be important plot wise in AMOL.

 

Second, what role for our favourite weapons?

At the moment they are used/seen as fighters but already there are moves away. Androl for example is the best travelling companion a person could want.

 

Note that there will be some serious reconstruction post TG, and they including engineering/construction in their early training.

 

It's pretty speculative, though i'd love the scene where they take up oaths simply for the drama of it, and as I said it could contibute plotwise.

[RAbbott85]

I great theory. The Asha'man have always interested me as well, in a post TG world. Their name (guardian/defender) could be an indication of a future purpose - RJ was very skilled at out these small indicators. But, as you said, several of the Asha'man are skilled at things outside of fighting. I'm not sure about the oaths, but here's a thought for their role.

 

Aes Sedai means 'Servants of All' and Asha'man means 'Guardian', I would like to see those respective organizations fullfilling their name. Aes Sedai helping people and Asha'man defending Randland and maintaining the peace. I could see them using their respective organizations in harmony for the betterment of society. Perhaps they would merge the WT and BT into a new entity. Asha'man being bonded as Warders already indicates they may find themselves as the Guardians of the Servants.

[Beer Rot]

I think both the WT and BT should go co-ed and allow the channeler to decide whether they wish to be a servant of all, or a guardian of all.

 

Otherwise, I see a channeling war between the two in the future.

 

edit to add: in essence, Flinn would become yellow Ajah, the greens would become asha'man, and reds are still a bunch of rosie o'donnells

[RAbbott85]

I think both the WT and BT should both go co-ed and allow the channeler to decide whether they wish to be a servant of all, or a guardian of all.

 

Otherwise, I see a channeling war between the two in the future.

 

I like that idea.

 

And a battle of some sort is inevitable to get the DFs out of the BT. Likely before the Last Battle.

[Skeeve the Great]

For some reason the word Asha'mEn ticks me off.

[MasterAblar]

For some reason the word Asha'mEn ticks me off.

 

Same here.

[Beer Rot]

For some reason the word Asha'mEn ticks me off.

 

i hate when people say "mouses" when talking about computer mice. /offtopic

[Hyronimus]

Asha'man uncountable noun then. Though I believe they say 'an ash'man' and I won't be using Asha'mans.

 

Interesting idea about Flinn becoming yellow. But these does seem a little regressive I don't think we can go back to male Aes Sadai, even if Rand says so.

 

However if that did happen and being an Asha'man was a kind of Ajah, wouldn't they have to take the same oaths? or are we talking different Ajahs different oaths?

 

I also like the idea of Logain coming back with the/a oath rod even though we're expecting more rending in fire and blood.

 

Just speculating.

[Wantanswers]

Asha'man uncountable noun then. Though I believe they say 'an ash'man' and I won't be using Asha'mans.

 

Interesting idea about Flinn becoming yellow. But these does seem a little regressive I don't think we can go back to male Aes Sadai, even if Rand says so.

 

However if that did happen and being an Asha'man was a kind of Ajah, wouldn't they have to take the same oaths? or are we talking different Ajahs different oaths?

 

I also like the idea of Logain coming back with the/a oath rod even though we're expecting more rending in fire and blood.

 

Just speculating.

The plural of Asha'man is also Asha'man.

 

It may be possible that the Asha'man will swear oaths, but I doubt they will swear on the Oath Rod that the White Tower has in possession.

That Oath Rod was most probably used in the AoL to bind criminal channelers. It causes the ageless face and halves the lifespan of those who have sworn on it.

(Ironically the Aes Sedai is the only group of channelers, whose words aren't trusted, although they have sworn not to lie.)

The Oath Rod is a binder. We know of 5 binders and in whose possession they are:

1. White Tower

2. Therava

3-5. Moridin

We don't know if they all have the same properties.

 

I don't think there was a special Ajah(capital) for men in the AoL. The ajahs(lower case) were organised in a different way.

In the surviving of twenty-three consecutive pages of a dictionary from ca. 50 AB , ajah, in the Old Tongue, is defined as 'an informal and temporary group of people gathered together for a common purpose or goal, or by a common set of beliefs.'

[mb]

Tarmon Gaidon would be one future.

 

Before then, 2 Foretellings in combination seem to indicate that the Ashamen would split and do battle with each other.

the guardians balance the servants

The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire

 

After Tarmon Gaidon, it might be possible that the Ashamen might take oaths on a binder attuned to saidin.

The oaths might relate to Rand's speach to them at Black Tower.

[Hyronimus]

I hadn't even thought about the binder being attuned to saidin or not

 

Though could one oath rod be used by both men and women? Or could one be made? after all the asha'man discovered a form of bonding which i imagine it is related to.

 

The Asha'man seem to have taken Rands speech to heart already. This would certainly inform any oaths.

 

The fortelling that the black tower would be rent reinforces the idea of the ash'man moving to tar valon (to become greater arvalon) for me. considering egwene's postion on the oaths now I don't see the aes sadai welcoming them unbound in someway. there are some aes sadai who would see them all made warders, for example.

 

 

 

too bad we'll never read the adventures of the future young asha'man & aes sadai.

[Southpaw89]

If the Asha'man joined the White Tower it would be the best for everyone.

[jsbrads]

It may take generations for ashaman to be intergrated into Aes Sedai society and by then Aes Sedai society would have changed drastically (I hope, tho Egwene would hate any change to her precious)

A reasonable first step would be ashaman warders, tho no oathes, their Aes Sedai would never let them do what they themselves couldn't (ie grab people with saidin and shake them, harm people, etc) much like warders (generally stronger and more martially skilled than most aren't bullies).

The likelihood that there will be many types of channelers wandering around would both slow integration and ease it as well.

[yoniy0]

It's really kind of moot, as long as the (many) organizations of women who can channel remain separate. Why should the Asha'man join with the AS, when they could just as easily co-operate mainly with the WO, for example?

[jsbrads]

It's not moot, because there will be a central government for Channelers and men will be as much a part of it as women (at some point in the future) and that central booking will have threads attached to all channelers

[Hyronimus]

I don't know that we need the asha'man to join the Aes Sadai so much as remake the nature of the relationship, the twin towers not the white tower.

 

The problem is the asha'man are given few restraints really. There's a deserters tree, and most of the ones we hate appear to be darkfriends, but just as the women using the name Aes Sadai are not true AS as they were, so the Asha'man must define their role in the world.

 

Say what you will of the white tower, it is responsible in part for Aes Sadai not going the way of the Seanchan before the conquest. And the wise ones aren't an organisation that exist for channellers so much as one that serves the Aiel. In Avi's vision for example there were Dragon Blooded who channalled Saidin.

 

Including the Ash'man in a renewed, strengthened(and improved) tar valon would serve better than remaking the organisation completely, so the expedient method of administering oaths. IMHO

[Guest Tempest]

To be perfectly honest, there are alot of great ideas posted here. But so far, no one has mentioned the greatest threat threat to the post-Tarmon Gai'don world: The Seanchan. As you are all aware, Aviendha's journey through Rhuidean was extremely shocking to the future of the Aiel. They haven't returned to their roots and followed the Way of the Leaf once more, nor are they warriors. They have been systematically wiped out by the new masters of the world. We also receive the knowledge that the Seanchan have sacked the White Tower, with no mention whatsoever to the Black Tower, meaning that it too has been whiped out at an earlier time, it did not survive the last battle, or it had previously joined the Aes Sedai and fell alongside the White Tower.

One way or another, the future of the Asha'man does not look overly enticing. I personally beleive that the current split is going to result in a small civil war, with both sides fleeing to join the Light or Shadow. But at this point, most of you are probably wondering where I'm going with this, as I've scarcely mentioned what the Seanchan have to do with the Asha'man.

 

The Seanchan use channelers in battle, and up until now they've all been women, correct? But we already know of a male a'dam existing. A ter'angreal capable of controlling men who can channel. The taint on Saidin has been cleansed, and therefore the taint would no longer affect the women. It is purely possible, in my opinion, after the last battle, the asha'man and Aes Sedai will form a shaky alliance, out of respect for the Dragon. At the same time, Egwene will have formed an alliance with the Wise Ones of the Aiel, and with the Sea Folk Windfinders. This will make finding all of the channelers in the world much easier for the Seanchan, and with the Talent of creating ter'angreal having resurfaced, I'd say it is a distinct possibility that the Asha'man will be enslaved as damane much the same as the Aes Sedai.

[AquilaInfernus]

I believe the Black Tower goes underground before the White Tower is sacked. This suggests their centre of power was compromised, but the main strength escaped.

[baalsmistress]

I'm wondering what Ishamael has in store for the Black Tower, given he is currently protecting it from invasion by maintaining a Dream Spike at its location.

[Hyronimus]

Given that the future Avi saw described the Ash'man as fighting in secret because their fortress had already fallen, we can take this to mean the Black Tower as it stands now.

 

Therefore, one of the differences needed to avoid this future could involve the Ash'man moving to Tar Valon after the BT is destroyed. It would indicate to us readers that this future has in fact been avoided (as i believe it must).

 

Concern about the Seanchan is still valid though, we have little idea of the possible compromise that might be reached, however I thought the danger to the two woman who must control the man arose from a man naturally needing to lead the link of a minimal circle not the taint exactly(beyond a madman on a leash sounding like a bad idea), this is mentioned by the forsaken at one point as the women are wary of linking with one of the male forsaken. Grendal with Lanfear and...sammael? Rahvin?

 

Can't remember exactly I'm afraid.

 

But when it is first mentioned they don't specify that the taint is responsible for the loss of control.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the lightside lost the whole tower for a while actually, Androl and Pevara seem more intent on escape, perhaps logain's glory comes in the retaking?

[yoniy0]

a man naturally needing to lead the link of a minimal circle not the taint exactly(beyond a madman on a leash sounding like a bad idea), this is mentioned by the forsaken at one point as the women are wary of linking with one of the male forsaken. Grendal with Lanfear and...sammael? Rahvin?

It's the other way around. A man can't lead a circle of three, which is why Sammael was rethinking his role in Lanfear's plan (Flinn apparently did just that, but Lanfear still believed it impossible for some reason, and Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal didn't correct her):

“Nothing has changed,” the scarred man growled. “Least of all, my trust for you. I will be part of the link, or it ends now.”

The golden-haired woman threw back her head and laughed. “Poor man,” she said mockingly, waving a beringed hand at him. “Do you think he would not notice that you were linked? He has a teacher, remember. A poor one, but not a complete fool. Next you will ask to include enough of those Black Ajah children to take the circle beyond thirteen, so you or Rahvin must have control.”

“If Rahvin trusts us enough to link when he must allow one of us to guide,” the melodious voice said, “you can display an equal trust.”

[baalsmistress]

a man naturally needing to lead the link of a minimal circle not the taint exactly(beyond a madman on a leash sounding like a bad idea), this is mentioned by the forsaken at one point as the women are wary of linking with one of the male forsaken. Grendal with Lanfear and...sammael? Rahvin?

It's the other way around. A man can't lead a circle of three, which is why Sammael was rethinking his role in Lanfear's plan (Flinn apparently did just that, but Lanfear still believed it impossible for some reason, and Rahvin, Sammael and Graendal didn't correct her):

 

 

I do wonder how much the principle "Noone bothered to tell him it was impossible, so he went ahead and did it" applies.

 

It's mentioned regularly that the individual beliefs of a wielder become limits on their use of the one power.

 

A trivial example would be the hand gestures that most Aes Sedai believe to be integral to certain weaves, and they cannot produce them without the gestures - then other channellers that have learned differently don't have that limitation, but have others.

 

The simple fact that the forsaken believe that a man cannot lead a circle of 3 probably intrinsically makes that belief correct - FOR THEM.

[yoniy0]

Yes, well, someone should really ask Maria about that. Either way, a woman should have no problems leading a circle of three.

[MasterAblar]

I don't know that we need the asha'man to join the Aes Sadai so much as remake the nature of the relationship, the twin towers not the white tower.

 

The problem is the asha'man are given few restraints really. There's a deserters tree, and most of the ones we hate appear to be darkfriends, but just as the women using the name Aes Sadai are not true AS as they were, so the Asha'man must define their role in the world.

 

Say what you will of the white tower, it is responsible in part for Aes Sadai not going the way of the Seanchan before the conquest. And the wise ones aren't an organisation that exist for channellers so much as one that serves the Aiel. In Avi's vision for example there were Dragon Blooded who channalled Saidin.

 

Including the Ash'man in a renewed, strengthened(and improved) tar valon would serve better than remaking the organisation completely, so the expedient method of administering oaths. IMHO

 

The Ashaman already have their role in the world for now. Their duty is to fight the Shadow. Just because the DO is sealed away, doesn't necessarily mean that all Shadowspawn will dissapear from the world. Once they are all gone, they can broaden their purpose, while still perhaps keeping a focus on their fighting abilities. In any case nothing requires them to join the Aes Sedai, a group with which their is a great amount of prejudice and hate, and they probably won't care to work with them much either, unless it is absolutley required, like for the Last Battle. And I don't see how they could be convinced to take oaths anyway, particularly when those oaths shorten their lives so much.

 

I'm wondering what Ishamael has in store for the Black Tower, given he is currently protecting it from invasion by maintaining a Dream Spike at its location.

 

I don't think Ishamael cares about the Black Tower itself. He's just intersted in turning Ashaman to the shadow. The purpose of the dreamspike is to stop word of it from getting out. The inability to travel there will make people suspicious, like it has Rand and Perrin, but it gains him time.

 

Given that the future Avi saw described the Ash'man as fighting in secret because their fortress had already fallen, we can take this to mean the Black Tower as it stands now.

 

Therefore, one of the differences needed to avoid this future could involve the Ash'man moving to Tar Valon after the BT is destroyed. It would indicate to us readers that this future has in fact been avoided (as i believe it must).

 

 

I don't see why that would be needed. The Ashaman have nothing to do with the war. They were pulled into it, ultimately by the actions of the Aiel. It's the Aiel who have to change to avoid that future, not the Ashaman.

[Kaznen]

I don't think Rand ever wanted the AM to be considered AS for men. He never liked calling the AM stronghold "The Black Tower" because it implied the AM trying to be AS, among other things.

 

The cultures, methods, and philosophies of the two towers are way to different to be joined anytime soon. For instance:

 

The AS think they need to separate themselves from the world the AM think they should be a part of it.

 

The AS train novices to not touch the OP without a AS or accepted standing over them, the AM make soldiers use the OP at every opportunity even if a AM or dedicated isn't around.

 

The AS think using the OP for manual labor is a waste, the AM disagree (see above point).

 

For AS the OP(saidar) is a unstoppable force that must be submitted to, for AM the OP(saidin) is a constant struggle that must be fought.

 

The AS see the world as a stones board and people are expendable, the AM don't and think no one is expendable.