'A woman who was dead and gone'

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes, exactly. They both went through the doorway. So which one is the 'woman who was dead and gone'? Moiraine? Lanfear? Neither?

 

A few pages after Min thinks this, she also thinks that her Viewing of Moiraine was the only one that had failed; but that 'failed' Viewing does not necessarily refer to the 'woman dead and gone'. As others have pointed out, it may refer to Moiraine marrying Thom:

 

“Have you ever been in love, Moiraine?”

 

What a startling question. Elayne could not imagine the Aes Sedai in love. Moiraine was Blue Ajah, and it was said Blue sisters gave all their passions to causes.

 

The slender woman was not at all taken aback. For a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally she said, “I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband.”

 

Egwene gaped in surprise.

 

“Who?” Elayne gasped.

 

The Aes Sedai appeared regretful of having spoken. “Perhaps I only meant we share an ignorance. Do not read too much into a few words.” She looked at Nynaeve consideringly. “Should I ever choose a man—should, I say—it will not be Lan. That much I will say.”

 

 

Interesting thoughts you raise there. I'm a bit slow the best of times, but would it not stand to reason that if the failed viewing was Moiraine and Thom's marraige (and was it ever confirned Min 'viewed' that?) then Min in fact has had two failed viewings?

[Cybertrolloc]

This was around the time that Min started chatting with the Wise Ones, so it's possible she'd have more info than the usual only what we know she saw since characters rarely shared useful info way back when.

 

You can follow Min's travels via http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/m/min.html some of the things mentioned thus far seem weird (Min wasn't in Carhien in tFoH for example).

 

Anyway, we need the text from the latest version (I'll fish around amazon preview later maybe). It should also be possible to come up with a list of likely characters--female and Min thinks they're dead at that time, but that's going to include a lot of one mention Aes Sedai and lots of maybe Min knew about Xs.

 

Sure, Moiraine seems likely for both quotes, but it's not very exclusively that via first ed wording.

[JKN-SW]

I still think Min's viewing combined with Mats answer from the Finns is the most logical answer. "To give up half the light of the world to save the world". By giving up his eye Mat saves Moraine and by giving up his eye he saves the world. Thus by saving Moraine he saves the world.

 

As was mentioned above, the ongoing info on Moraine through all the books indicates that she will play a major part in the finale. It makes sence that Mins viewing is just one more tidbit in that mountain of hints as to her importance.

[balefireruinssteaks]

It seems to me that if Lanfear was the woman in the viewing...Min would have mentioned this to Rand. "Don't kill Lanfear, she's important to you" or something of the sort. Min had already seen Lanfear at Falme but from her point of view we didn't see any viewings spring to life, and it seems like it would be important if one did. Also, if Mierin/Lanfear is the "dead and gone" - I don't think Min would have the frame of reference for knowing that Mierin was someone who was "gone" and Lanfear dead like they thought Moiraine was dead. It doesn't seem likely that Rand (even if he knew Lanfear's original name) discussed this with Min.

 

Moiraine seems the likely choice to me for the "dead and gone" lady.

[Orderofolde]

#1 Moraine

 

Min believes Moraine died, thus "dead and gone".

 

Moraine: "But for now, we will NEED TO SEEK out Rand". Mat: "They gave you three demands?". One was getting that angreal, 2 others we don't know. She probably got the answers that will help Rand win the TG.

 

#2 Cyndane

 

Remote possibility she will turn on Moridin and help Rand. Very doubtful, all Forsaken are mass murders in the style of Stalin or Hitler.

Remember, Mat went through that doorway asking his questions and they would not answer. They give 3 items (physical or mental) Mat's memories, his Ashanderi, and his medallion. Moiraine wasn't given the Angreal, Mat/Thom removed it from her wrist and pocketed it, it might count or it just might not as the Finns were using it to feed off her for their, "Savor". She gained 2 other things but probably forgot to ask the price, or perhaps the first Finns told her what it would be in their riddle like Mat would "give up half the light of the world to save the world." One thing is for certain, and that is AMoL will be awesome.

[FarShainMael]

I'm a bit slow the best of times, but would it not stand to reason that if the failed viewing was Moiraine and Thom's marraige (and was it ever confirned Min 'viewed' that?) then Min in fact has had two failed viewings?

 

No, it wasn't confirmed.

 

Of course, none of Min's Viewings actually do fail (as long as the Pattern is intact, that is). And if the Viewing of a 'woman dead and gone' was of Lanfear, then no it hadn't failed - Lanfear did die, and was gone from the world.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm a bit slow the best of times, but would it not stand to reason that if the failed viewing was Moiraine and Thom's marraige (and was it ever confirned Min 'viewed' that?) then Min in fact has had two failed viewings?

 

No, it wasn't confirmed.

 

Of course, none of Min's Viewings actually do fail (as long as the Pattern is intact, that is). And if the Viewing of a 'woman dead and gone' was of Lanfear, then no it hadn't failed - Lanfear did die, and was gone from the world.

 

Let me try framing the reasoning on that question a little more clearly:

 

You have to realize that from Min's POV, "failure" is an entirely subjective label. She does not have the limited omniscience of the Reader; we -know- objectively that none of her visions fail. Her belief that she failed at anything is completely incorrect, based on her limited understanding.

 

Min's view: Hypothetical marriage viewing cannot succeed if Moiraine is dead. Failure.

Our view: Even if there was a marriage viewing, it would succeed because Moiraine is not dead. Success.

 

Now, looking at this again from Min's POV, there is the hypothetical viewing of Rand that showed a "woman dead and gone" being key to salvation. Context of Randland. There are no resurrection or raise dead spells, and Min has absolutely no reason to believe that such powers exist. Even Rand can't pull that off, and if he told her anything about Tear, she knows that for hard fact. None of them appeared to have a hint about DO transmigration until LTT-Rand encountered Meirin at the end of ToM.

 

Now, IF Min had a viewing of a woman dead and gone helping Rand save the world, and if she had already had a previous "failure" she should believe that the WDaG viewing is a failure as well. This has tremendous implications - it not only means she has the beginning of a sequence of failed viewings, but that she is now giving Truth Viewings of things that make no sense. She may not have understood the full extent of Truth viewings in the past, but her truth viewings aren't like prophecy, with the sword that is not a sword trappings.

 

From Reader view, this is two Min-perceived failures, which does not jibe with what Min actually states in the books.

 

Natural conclusion seems to be that this is because no viewing of Thom and Moiraine's marriage ever happened.

[UncleButcher1980]

Well you put it much better than I did. I was thinking that from Min's point of she would have thought she'd had two failed viewings, assuming she every 'viewed' Moiraine and Thom's marriage.

[FarShainMael]

Even from Min's PoV, if these are two different women, then she only thinks she's failed once.

 

(I keep thinking of a lovely line in a children's animated version of 'Around the World in 80 days' that my son was very fond of, when a character says 'I've only ever been wrong once, and that was when I thought I was mistaken - which I wasn't, of course.'.)

[mandersen]

I'm a bit slow the best of times, but would it not stand to reason that if the failed viewing was Moiraine and Thom's marraige (and was it ever confirned Min 'viewed' that?) then Min in fact has had two failed viewings?

 

No, it wasn't confirmed.

 

Of course, none of Min's Viewings actually do fail (as long as the Pattern is intact, that is). And if the Viewing of a 'woman dead and gone' was of Lanfear, then no it hadn't failed - Lanfear did die, and was gone from the world.

 

Let me try framing the reasoning on that question a little more clearly:

 

You have to realize that from Min's POV, "failure" is an entirely subjective label. She does not have the limited omniscience of the Reader; we -know- objectively that none of her visions fail. Her belief that she failed at anything is completely incorrect, based on her limited understanding.

 

Min's view: Hypothetical marriage viewing cannot succeed if Moiraine is dead. Failure.

Our view: Even if there was a marriage viewing, it would succeed because Moiraine is not dead. Success.

 

Now, looking at this again from Min's POV, there is the hypothetical viewing of Rand that showed a "woman dead and gone" being key to salvation. Context of Randland. There are no resurrection or raise dead spells, and Min has absolutely no reason to believe that such powers exist. Even Rand can't pull that off, and if he told her anything about Tear, she knows that for hard fact. None of them appeared to have a hint about DO transmigration until LTT-Rand encountered Meirin at the end of ToM.

 

Now, IF Min had a viewing of a woman dead and gone helping Rand save the world, and if she had already had a previous "failure" she should believe that the WDaG viewing is a failure as well. This has tremendous implications - it not only means she has the beginning of a sequence of failed viewings, but that she is now giving Truth Viewings of things that make no sense. She may not have understood the full extent of Truth viewings in the past, but her truth viewings aren't like prophecy, with the sword that is not a sword trappings.

 

From Reader view, this is two Min-perceived failures, which does not jibe with what Min actually states in the books.

 

Natural conclusion seems to be that this is because no viewing of Thom and Moiraine's marriage ever happened.

 

Look at KoD ch. 20. I don't have an exact quote, but it says that Min had all sorts of viewings of Moiraine's future, none of which (she thinks) will happen now. So the one viewing that failed isn't one viewing, it's all viewings pertaining to post-doorway Moiraine. And it's my opinion that the woman dead and gone isn't a viewing of someone actually dead and gone coming back to help, it's a viewing of Moiraine (who she believes is dead) being crucial to Rand, and is all part of the "failed" post-doorway moiraine viewings. Unless RJ was being tricksy.

[FarShainMael]

Min said in KoD20:

 

"I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either.”

 

In ACoS35 she thinks:

 

"Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

The first quote suggests that she had many failed viewings; the second suggests only one.

[mandersen]

Min said in KoD20:

 

"I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either.”

 

In ACoS35 she thinks:

 

"Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

The first quote suggests that she had many failed viewings; the second suggests only one.

 

Right, so to me the only way this is not completely contradictory is if the second statement refers to a viewing in which she saw multiple things about moiraine's future. She often sees multiple elements in one viewing, and AS are usually so full of images she can hardly tell one from another. Is it not then possible in one viewing she saw both Moiraine and Thom's union AND her being needed in the LB?

[Ryrin]

It is mentioned several times in the books that the one viewing of Min's that failed was about Moraine. Why? Because they all ASSUME she is dead. This is not complicated. Rand will not "almost certainly fail" as Min believes because the woman she BELIEVES to be dead (Moraine) is not. You must differentiate between her viewing, which is always true, and her talking about the fact that Moraine is dead (which was not a viewing, but is her assumption).

 

I agree it is Moiraine. Everyone believes she is dead but she was in "suspended animation" so to speak.

[sVieira151]

Have we not came to a conclusion yet? It seemed pretty obvious it was Moiraine, unless Min is musing over a completely different viewing as to what she did so many times. What I mean is...

 

Min has viewing that unless Rand gets help from Moiraine, he will die.

 

She assumes Moiraine is dead, seeing as she went through the doorway ter'angreal.

 

There are numerous times Min talks about how this viewing of hers failed, about how Moiraine is dead and that she can't help Rand. From what I gathered from reading, the musing quoted in OP was Min thinking about the viewing she had about Moiraine, but the name is just not mentioned this time(as it has been mentioned countless other times).

 

In this specific scene(I can't remember the exact scene, don't have books on me) I don't know the circumstances, and what other viewings are mentioned by Min to Rand.

 

That's just my thoughts though. It has been a little while since I read them last. Will need to read them again.

[FarShainMael]

I don't think Min talked about failed Viewings 'numerous times'; I can only locate one such, in ACoS35. Here's a summary of that chapter:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/acos/ch35.html

 

And here's a summary of Min's Viewings:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/viewings.html

[sVieira151]

Oh, ok. Well, for some reasons I must have thought it was in a later book, or I made up times Min thought about that viewing of Moiraine. I always thought it was about Moiraine anyway. That was before I had heard loads of other theories though but I dunno, it just seems like Moiraine is the most likely.

[kght22]

Min said in KoD20:

 

"I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either.”

 

In ACoS35 she thinks:

 

"Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

The first quote suggests that she had many failed viewings; the second suggests only one.

 

the first quote does not suggest that she has many failed viewings at all. it's her own fear that leads her to think that if she was wrong about moiraine, maybe she was wrong about other viewings. but she wasn't wrong about moiraine, she just didn't know it.

[aunt_pol]

^^ This, exactly.

Hell, even Mat with his wariness of Aes Sedai, was willing to give up a flippin' eye to save her - he never questioned the Finn's measure of her at all. 'To save the world' I think suggests equal importance with Min's viewing that Rand couldn't succeed without her.

 

Come on, people - there are enough actual mysteries in these books without us chewing over this tough old meat again. It's Moiraine.

[FarShainMael]

I haven't seen this particular one discussed before, but then I've only been around these boards a couple of years. Do you have a link?

 

Anyroad up, it's something to argue chat about while we wait..

 

ETA:

A couple of things.. Does Mat actually know about Min's Viewings?

What was his motivation for going in after Moiraine?

[TheAngryDruid]

Re-read KoD Chapter 10. That is where Mat asks about Moiraine's letter, and Thom shows it to him.

 

It's not the be-all end-all of his motivation, but it is a start.

[FarShainMael]

Re-read KoD Chapter 10. That is where Mat asks about Moiraine's letter, and Thom shows it to him.

 

It's not the be-all end-all of his motivation, but it is a start.

 

Here's the letter:

 

My dearest Thom,

There are many words I would like to write to you, words from my heart, but I have put this off because I knew that I must, and now there is little time. There are many things I cannot tell you lest I bring disaster, but what I can, I will. Heed carefully what I say. In a short while I will go down to the docks, and there I will confront Lanfear. How can I know that? That secret belongs to others. Suffice it that I know, and let that foreknowledge stand as proof for the rest of what I say.

 

When you receive this, you will be told that I am dead. All will believe that. I am not dead, and it may be that I shall live to my appointed years. It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to, and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives.

 

Should you decide to make the attempt anyway, young Mat knows the way to find me, yet you must not show him this letter until he asks about it. That is of the utmost importance. He must know nothing that is in this letter until he asks. Events must play out in certain ways, whatever the costs.

 

If you see Lan again, tell him that all of this is for the best. His destiny follows a different path from mine. I wish him all happiness with Nynaeve.

 

A final point. Remember what you know about the game of Snakes and Foxes. Remember, and heed.

 

It is time, and I must do what must be done.

 

May the Light illumine you and give you joy, my dearest Thom, whether or not we ever see one another again.

 

Moiraine

 

That is my point. There is nothing in it about Min's Viewings; about Moiraine's importance o the LB; only a plea for rescue. Mat thought highly enough of Moiraine to give up an eye for her, with only that prediction of the Aelfinn to guide him - a prediction given by creatures he hates and distrusts and thinks are fundamentally liars. Whether it would save the world or not was a side issue to him, I suggest.

[FarShainMael]

Min said in KoD20:

 

"I was wrong about Moiraine. I saw all sorts of things in her future, and she's dead. Maybe some of the other things I saw never came true either.”

 

In ACoS35 she thinks:

 

"Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

The first quote suggests that she had many viewings that she thought had failed; the second suggests only one.

 

the first quote does not suggest that she has many failed viewings at all. it's her own fear that leads her to think that if she was wrong about moiraine, maybe she was wrong about other viewings. but she wasn't wrong about moiraine, she just didn't know it.

 

Sorry, I was a little imprecise. I have edited above.

[mb]

Like I posted other times, I think the viewing talks about a woman that was literally dead; not one believed/thought/etc dead.

And like I posted before; for Moiraine to fulfill it, she would need to return from literal death.

 

And like I implicitly asked, has either author told that the woman is Moiraine? Or have either commented on this viewing?

[kght22]

Like I posted other times, I think the viewing talks about a woman that was literally dead; not one believed/thought/etc dead.

And like I posted before; for Moiraine to fulfill it, she would need to return from literal death.

 

And like I implicitly asked, has either author told that the woman is Moiraine? Or have either commented on this viewing?

 

i looked at your one other post in this thread. i'll put it this simple, min thinks about moiraine almost every time when she thinks about the viewing that failed. and when she doesn't she had thought about moiraine recently, or been reminded of moiraine by the face of moiraine's close relative. but its not just that, she thinks of ONE failed viewing. and if even one time she associates that viewing with moiraine, its always associated with moiriane. and she THINKS that the woman is DEAD. her perception is as valid, possibly more valid, than what has actually occurred.

[Rose]

Like I posted other times, I think the viewing talks about a woman that was literally dead; not one believed/thought/etc dead.

And like I posted before; for Moiraine to fulfill it, she would need to return from literal death.

 

And like I implicitly asked, has either author told that the woman is Moiraine? Or have either commented on this viewing?

That's the thing though. The viewing does not say anything about the woman being dead. The viewing just says: Rand needs this woman. That's it. Now Min knows (or thinks she knows) that this woman is dead, but that's her understanding. If, as we assume, the woman in the viewing is Moiraine, we know that Min is wrong since Moiraine is in fact alive and on her way back to Rand. So her viewing was correct. She was the one who was mistaken when she thought Moiriaine was dead.