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FarShainMael

'A woman who was dead and gone'

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Yes, exactly. Which is why I don't think the viewing included a dead woman at all. It just included Moiraine. Min thought Moiraine was dead, hence her interpretation.

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A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep his spirits up, make him remember to laugh. Except . . .

 

I understand how it logically it could be interpreted as Lanfear, but I was thought emotionally it didnt make sense. Min would have been more shocked to know that Rand need Lanfear, one of the Forsaken!, to help him succeed against the dark one. She would have been utterly confused about how she was to help or why.

 

Also, didn't we see Min's only on screen time with Lanfear, in TGH? I can't think of another time when Min would have viewed Lanfear. So this mean's the viewing would have been on screen.

Edited by Clouded

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A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep his spirits up, make him remember to laugh. Except . . .

 

I understand how it logically it could be interpreted as Lanfear, but I was thought emotionally it didnt make sense. Min would have been more shocked to know that Rand need Lanfear, one of the Forsaken!, to help him succeed against the dark one. She would have been utterly confused about how she was to help or why.

 

Also, didn't we see Min's only on screen time with Lanfear, in TGH? I can't think of another time when Min would have viewed Lanfear. So this mean's the viewing would have been on screen.

 

She needn't have seen it was Lanfear. Her viewing might literally have been "A woman dead and gone" without any faces or names.

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A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep his spirits up, make him remember to laugh. Except . . .

 

I understand how it logically it could be interpreted as Lanfear, but I was thought emotionally it didnt make sense. Min would have been more shocked to know that Rand need Lanfear, one of the Forsaken!, to help him succeed against the dark one. She would have been utterly confused about how she was to help or why.

 

Also, didn't we see Min's only on screen time with Lanfear, in TGH? I can't think of another time when Min would have viewed Lanfear. So this mean's the viewing would have been on screen.

 

It was in TGH48, but there's no mention of her Viewing anything then. Which is not to say she didn't, of course.

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I thought this was pretty clear.

 

1) Min has a viewing that Moiraine WILL help Rand at TG.

 

2)Moiraine "dies" and Min thinks her viewing must be wrong "the only one"

 

3) Mins musing in CoS about needing a woman who's dead and gone is no other off screen viewing, but is refering to the Moiraine viewing. Events more or less confirm that (to me) when in a few pages later Min sees Caraline Damodred and for a split secomd thinks its moiraine.

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(Asperger's ?)

 

My 'language barrier'.

 

Oh, I hadn't seen that part of your post. Thanks for letting me know. I wouldn't have guessed, though.

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(Asperger's ?)

 

My 'language barrier'.

 

Oh, I hadn't seen that part of your post. Thanks for letting me know. I wouldn't have guessed, though.

 

The problem was - I started to respond to your post, and my normal style tends to be rather terse because (as Granny Weatherwax might say) I 'can't be having' with all the circumlocutions that tend to characterise normal speech. Then I realised that you might take the terseness as hostility, something I've learned about rather painfully over the years, so I tried to soften things up a bit. Apparently it worked :mellow:

 

Asperger's and intelligence aren't at all related, and a person can have plenty of intelligence but still have comms difficulties which are down to lack of non-verbal information. A person can sometimes cope quite well, so much so that they are not diagnosed until well into adulthood, which is what happened to me (though people did tend to see me as rather odd! :blink: )

 

Now, back to topic..

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(Asperger's ?)

 

My 'language barrier'.

 

Oh, I hadn't seen that part of your post. Thanks for letting me know. I wouldn't have guessed, though.

 

The problem was - I started to respond to your post, and my normal style tends to be rather terse because (as Granny Weatherwax might say) I 'can't be having' with all the circumlocutions that tend to characterise normal speech. Then I realised that you might take the terseness as hostility, something I've learned about rather painfully over the years, so I tried to soften things up a bit. Apparently it worked :mellow:

 

Asperger's and intelligence aren't at all related, and a person can have plenty of intelligence but still have comms difficulties which are down to lack of non-verbal information. A person can sometimes cope quite well, so much so that they are not diagnosed until well into adulthood, which is what happened to me (though people did tend to see me as rather odd! :blink: )

 

Now, back to topic..

 

In a moment...

 

Good on you FSM for putting yourself on the line so to speak. Like Rose I would never have even thought that you had any issues, by which I mean that I don't think your posts are terse but rather concise and well thought out (you may have to work harder than the average Joe to achieve this but I think it works for you so keep it up). :biggrin:

 

Now... back to topic...

 

I just don't get why this thread/argument exists in the first place, most times the simplest answer is the correct answer, it's about Moiraine.

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You guys are reading way too much into this. In books 6-7 we are constantly reminded of Moiraine's death... everyone KNOWS she is dead, but everyone is WRONG. Mow Mat and Thom have pulled her chestnuts our of the fire just in time for the LB. Let's face it, if it wasn't Morry than Min was referring to, there would not have been a need to resurrect the character into the storyline, and a very complex story would have been less complex... in fact an entire book would have been avoided. Add up all the copy referring to Moiraine's rescue (be sure to include the note she passed to Thom through Rand and Mat, all the times he was seen reading it and carefully folding it- and doesn't it make sense now why he always did that in Mat's POV- with all the attempts to get a gateway, play snakes and foxes, the actual rescue and such) and I bet it would make a small volume. RJ would not have put so much planning into character recovery if this was not the "must be present" woman.

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The viewing of Moiraine that Min mentions that failed could very well be the one of her and Thom getting married. The woman who is dead and gone does not HAVE to be Moiraine...though I will admit it makes the most sense. I would not be surprised if it was intentionally misleading to surprise us though.

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I am going to speak on the premise of the idea that the direct prediction of the viewing is, "Rand will almost certainly fail without a woman who is dead and gone" so that the words themselves are part of the viewing (as Min is known to do)...

My entire thought is based on a single word of that sentence, the word 'IS'.

 

Min's viewing's are never wrong. She does believe her one's of Moiraine are incorrect, I recall her thinking (more than once) of Moiraine being dead and being shocked because her visions say it is not possible. But even they are not wrong, she doesn't know the full story. The only time her viewings can be "changed" is if she uses the words IF. The viewing of Siuan and Gareth as an example, she says that IF they are not together, then both will die. This is obviously a viewing of the future based on choice. It is a viewing with 2 possibilities, but no more, and Min has seen both possibilities, so she is still not wrong. This is even if it is possible for the two people to not be together, they may have no choice in the matter.

 

The prediction we are speaking about though, it does not have the word IF, it has the word IS.

 

Rand will almost certainly fail without a woman who IS dead and gone. This means the woman in the viewing IS dead, not thought to be dead, but IS dead. This also means, by my logic, that the viewing is not one of choice, it is not one of possibilities, but a viewing of certainty. Min sees Rand (maybe) fail because a woman is dead. So, she has predicted that Rand will almost certainly fail. Nothing more, the end. It does not in any way predict that this woman will somehow come back to help him win. In fact it does not even suggest the possibility. It merely says that Rand has a greater chance of failing because of this woman's death/absence.

 

Rand will ALMOST certainly fail without a woman who IS dead and gone.

 

So, to me, if this is a direct prediction it states that Rand is closer to failing than he was when the woman was alive.

Now, if this is the way it actually is, this seems to mean that the woman is not a woman that will be seen at any time in aMoL. She is dead and gone, not to return. So not Lanfear, not Moiraine, not anyone who was alive at the time of the viewing (whenever it was) or after, and not anyone that has died after the viewing, obviously.

 

Anyways, that is how I see that prediction.

I don't actually believe it, as I am one of those who thinks that Min was merely reflecting on a vision of Moiraine being an integral part in helping Rand win, and she realises that, now Moiraine is "dead" Rand has a greater chance of failing. So, a misinterpretation of her viewing being false, rather than a direct prediction...

 

But please, if you see something wrong with my logic, pick it apart without mercy, I want to see what I've missed, so I don't do it again :smile:

 

 

EDIT - BAHAHA... I just noticed... It says a woman who WAS dead and gone... Still, it applies to most of what I said... most lol... and I more see the use of that word as being part of the writing style, always written in past-tense... Oh well it's pretty funny anyways

Edited by BekahRebel

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The viewing of Moiraine that Min mentions that failed could very well be the one of her and Thom getting married. The woman who is dead and gone does not HAVE to be Moiraine...though I will admit it makes the most sense. I would not be surprised if it was intentionally misleading to surprise us though.

 

Maybe this one vision is not enough to point to Moiraine, but there are others as well.

For example, Mat knows that he has to give half the light in the world to save the world, and he lost one of his eyes to bring back a woman that was dead and gone, so to speak.

So, by saving Moiraine, Mat 'saved' the world, by giving Rand the help of a woman dead and gone, at least from his pov(and Min's as well).

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She is obviously adding her own interpretation of events to a vision that she had. This makes the woman moraine.

Just to play devils advocate to myself...

If Mins viewing was actually the help of a woman who is dead and gone. My vote would have tto be for Verin and that letter that she left in the WT for Rand. She fits the criteria that Moraine doesn't if you cross your eyes hard enough.

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#1 Moraine

 

Min believes Moraine died, thus "dead and gone".

 

Moraine: "But for now, we will NEED TO SEEK out Rand". Mat: "They gave you three demands?". One was getting that angreal, 2 others we don't know. She probably got the answers that will help Rand win the TG.

 

#2 Cyndane

 

Remote possibility she will turn on Moridin and help Rand. Very doubtful, all Forsaken are mass murders in the style of Stalin or Hitler.

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I just came across this in my re-read:

 

“What do you mean about Callandor?”

 

“It is flawed,” {Cadsuane} replied curtly, “lacking the buffer that makes other sa’angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows.”

 

Trying not to hunch his shoulders, he strode away from her. So it had been not just the wildness of saidin around Ebou Dar that had killed Adley. He had murdered the man the moment he sent Narishma for the thing.

 

Cadsuane’s voice pursued him. “Remember, boy. You must ask very nicely, and apologize. I might even agree, if your apology sounds truly sincere.”

 

Rand barely heard her. He had hoped to use Callandor again, hoped it would be strong enough. Now only one chance remained, and it terrified him. He seemed to hear another woman’s voice, a dead woman’s voice. You could challenge the Creator.

 

Points to CynFear..

Edited by FarShainMael

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I've just had a thought. Moiraine was not dead; wouldn't Min have seen that in her Viewing? But as I say, we haven't seen it on screen.

 

I'm wondering if it's CynFear. Lanfear did indeed die, and as one of those who made the Bore in the first place, she must have knowledge of how to close it. Which she may make Rand Sedai pay for dearly..

Just because she sees something doesn't mean she understands it. when she saw all the dying Aes Sedai at the Tower she only knew that large numbers of them would die within days of each other. Suian leapt to the BA conclusion, but it was Elaida's coup. And Egwene saw that Moiraine would be back in her Dreams (Thom pulling Moiraine's gem out of a fire) but she didn't understand it. Consider the Dreams and viewings video prophecy; just 'cause ya see 'em, don't think ya' know 'em.

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The viewing of Moiraine that Min mentions that failed could very well be the one of her and Thom getting married. The woman who is dead and gone does not HAVE to be Moiraine...though I will admit it makes the most sense. I would not be surprised if it was intentionally misleading to surprise us though.

 

It's a rather major assumption to guess that Moiraine learned that from one of Moiraine's viewings... after all, the quote is this:

 

“She got it wrong,” Egwene said half to herself, a delighted grin blooming on her face. “Have you ever been in love, Moiraine?”

 

What a startling question. Elayne could not imagine the Aes Sedai in love. Moiraine was Blue Ajah, and it was said Blue sisters gave all their passions to causes.

 

The slender woman was not at all taken aback. For a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally she said, “I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband.”_ TSR, ch 6

 

She states this in response to Egwene's question about love, and while it's in the carefully crafted non-answer of an Aes Sedai, her regret in saying this... and later regret in her treatment of Thom, suggests it reveals that she feels much more than that. You don't get that from a second-hand viewing, and you also don't get such intimate knowledge of someone's face from a second hand viewing either. She could be hedging, and that "wager" could let her off the hook for not telling the truth, but it's Moiraine we're talking about here. Why would she just make it up?

 

Clearly, she learned about the possible face (see: the hedge, she can't say that she knows the face of her future husband straight out and be truthful) somewhere, whether it be extremely deep introspection, or supernatural means. Min's viewings are the natural first place to look; the red ter'angreal doorways and Rhuidean are logical as well. However, the latter three hadn't happened yet, and there's absolutely nothing solid indicating Min ever gave Moiraine a detailed enough viewing to make that claim. You could intuit that, but isn't there a much more logical place? The silver arch test for the Accepted, so very like the arches of Rhuidean, immediately springs to mind.

 

Seems to me that like Nynaeve, it offered her a great deal of insight to her fears, which like any other normal person, revolve around possible futures to come. That which you will be, or accomplish, who you will hate, or love, and so on.

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It's not a question of them thinking she's dead, though I agree they all do. It's a question of the Pattern knowing she isn't - and the Pattern is what Min Views.

 

 

Min doesn't see everything which is what makes your statement a falicy, Min mentions that several times throughout the series.

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It's not a question of them thinking she's dead, though I agree they all do. It's a question of the Pattern knowing she isn't - and the Pattern is what Min Views.

 

 

Min doesn't see everything which is what makes your statement a falicy, Min mentions that several times throughout the series.

 

She certainly doesn't see everything in the Pattern, but what she does see is in the Pattern. Does that help?

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It's not a question of them thinking she's dead, though I agree they all do. It's a question of the Pattern knowing she isn't - and the Pattern is what Min Views.

 

 

Min doesn't see everything which is what makes your statement a falicy, Min mentions that several times throughout the series.

 

She certainly doesn't see everything in the Pattern, but what she does see is in the Pattern. Does that help?

 

 

She never says she sees Moiraine dead in her visions, she was there in Caihienen(sp) when Miraine and Lanfear went through the doorway

Edited by Eternal Phoenix

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Yes, exactly. They both went through the doorway. So which one is the 'woman who was dead and gone'? Moiraine? Lanfear? Neither?

 

A few pages after Min thinks this, she also thinks that her Viewing of Moiraine was the only one that had failed; but that 'failed' Viewing does not necessarily refer to the 'woman dead and gone'. As others have pointed out, it may refer to Moiraine marrying Thom:

 

“Have you ever been in love, Moiraine?”

 

What a startling question. Elayne could not imagine the Aes Sedai in love. Moiraine was Blue Ajah, and it was said Blue sisters gave all their passions to causes.

 

The slender woman was not at all taken aback. For a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally she said, “I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband.”

 

Egwene gaped in surprise.

 

“Who?” Elayne gasped.

 

The Aes Sedai appeared regretful of having spoken. “Perhaps I only meant we share an ignorance. Do not read too much into a few words.” She looked at Nynaeve consideringly. “Should I ever choose a man—should, I say—it will not be Lan. That much I will say.”

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"A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was."

 

Then Rand makes a gateway, and takes the two of them into a forested area, where they meet Caraline Damodred. For a moment Min thinks it is Moiraine, and thinks to herself that Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

 

Like most, I've taken the two occurrences as related, but there is a possibility that they are not. Jordan could be tricky like that.

 

In line with that thought, the text gives us no idea what the viewing of Moiraine was, only that Min thinks of it as a failed viewing. Maybe not because she thinks of Moiraine as dead but because she knows of no way anyone could get into Finnland and get her out?

 

So what other woman might Rand need to succeed who was actually "dead and gone"? What about his "mother", Kari al'Thor?

 

Not saying I'm wild about that as a possibility just that there are other logical alternatives to Moiraine as the answer to this puzzle. Kari being one. Tigraine being another.

 

Among those thought to be dead but not really so besides Moiraine is also Morgase.

 

While I don't like any of the alternatives I've proposed better than Moiraine, they are logical and possible alternatives.

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