'A woman who was dead and gone'

[FarShainMael]

In ACoS35, Min and Rand are together in Rand's room. Min watches Rand, Views images and auras around him:

 

"A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was."

 

Then Rand makes a gateway, and takes the two of them into a forested area, where they meet Caraline Damodred. For a moment Min thinks it is Moiraine, and thinks to herself that Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

 

Was she thinking of that earlier viewing? Or was she perhaps thinking (as some have suggested) of other significant events in Moiraine's life, such as marrying Thom? Did that earlier viewing refer to someone else entirely, such as Lanfear, who knew how the Bore was made and might be able to tell how it could be sealed?

 

The account of that first viewing strikes me as a bit different, more definite than the second. It does not help that we don't see either onscreen.

[omaleyb]

I think it is pretty clearly Moraine she is referring to and she only thinks the viewing of her was wrong.

[Alric]

I just read this. Moiraine makes most sense by far. Also, it is typical of RJ to throw in Caraline right after just to make us think of it again. Min certainly is worried about the fact that Moiraine seems to be important, but she is wise enough not to tell Rand. He may be able to handle the truth but he has enough problems and what good would it do - there seems to be nothing he could do to bring her back at the time.

[mandersen]

I always assumed she meant Moiraine. It goes with the fact that Rand always puts her on the top of his list of women he's killed. It all seemed to be foreshadowing that she'd be back.

[mb]

Many past threads discussed this Viewing. Some of them started by me.

 

To me the viewing has been about a woman that litterally died then returned from death.

 

In the pages inbetween the comments, the scene changes from one subject to another; multiple times.

On the later page/paragraph, there is no indication of the subject returning to the one viewing.

 

Also; in all other Viewings, known identities have been identified by name and never by description.

 

 

Currently 2 alive characters litterally died::

-Aviendha

-Cyndane (soul being Lanfear, body possibly Cabriana Mecandes)

 

If not them, then the character is yet to die then return.

Unless there is some currently dead woman Darkfriend the Dark One can ressurect.

 

Of that later, these can be ruled out because of balefire::

-Semirhage

-Elza

-Arangar

-Delana

 

 

One way that may help figgure out the who is to determine what Rand needs from the woman.

As far as I am aware, neither author commented about this Viewing.

[FarShainMael]

I've just had a thought. Moiraine was not dead; wouldn't Min have seen that in her Viewing? But as I say, we haven't seen it on screen.

 

I'm wondering if it's CynFear. Lanfear did indeed die, and as one of those who made the Bore in the first place, she must have knowledge of how to close it. Which she may make Rand Sedai pay for dearly..

[omaleyb]

It is mentioned several times in the books that the one viewing of Min's that failed was about Moraine. Why? Because they all ASSUME she is dead. This is not complicated. Rand will not "almost certainly fail" as Min believes because the woman she BELIEVES to be dead (Moraine) is not. You must differentiate between her viewing, which is always true, and her talking about the fact that Moraine is dead (which was not a viewing, but is her assumption).

[GB]

i think it is moiraine too, Min, just like everyone else, thinks she is dead, even the letter moiraine wrote said everyone else will think she is dead.

 

so being the only viewing that "failed" so far, Min might have seen much more than her being important at the LB and for Rand, she might have seen her getting married or something.

 

p.s. moiraine knew the face of the man she was to fall in love or marry better than egwene or elayne, courtesy of min's viewing i think

[Lisa Campbell]

Lan thought she was dead too. Their bond wasn't broken when she went to the Finns through the arch in Tear, I think she deliberately broke the bond to send him off to Myrelle.

[lordofsoup]

Time passes differently in Finnland, but the moment Moraine fell into the doorway, their bond was shattered, I did not think that time passed that much faster inside Finnland than in the real world. I always thought that it was something to do with the amount being channeled into the doorway, and it melting.

[FarShainMael]

It's not a question of them thinking she's dead, though I agree they all do. It's a question of the Pattern knowing she isn't - and the Pattern is what Min Views.

[damandred]

"Half the light of the world to save the world"

"Rand will fail without a woman dead and gone" = moraine.

I think mins viewing ment morry would help rand at the LB so COULDN'T die. Ie: Elayne's recklessness because mins viewing that her babies will be born. So with morry suposedly dying thus min thinking her viewing was wrong. The only one.

[FarShainMael]

I think mins viewing ment morry would help rand at the LB so COULDN'T die. Ie: Elayne's recklessness because mins viewing that her babies will be born. So with morry suposedly dying thus min thinking her viewing was wrong. The only one.

 

Min did indeed think that her Viewing of Moiraine was the only one she got wrong (though she was mistaken, as we now know) and it does indeed link in with what the 'finns said and did to Mat, and I think you're right about Moiraine's help being needed to 'save the world'.

 

I'm just suggesting that her Viewing about the 'woman dead and gone' was NOT the one she had about Moiraine that she thought was wrong, but about someone else - because the Pattern knew Moiraine wasn't dead, therefore Min could not have Viewed Moiraine's death. I think these were two separate Viewings.

 

The thing is, important though Moiraine must be, she's only one of the things that will be needed to win the LB. There are other factors as well, such as all three ta'veren in the same place as per Min's viewings of the sparks/fireflies. There are still others.

 

I feel another thread coming on..

[Luckers]

Mins viewing wasn't stated verbatim. Rather min wad thinking about the viewing, and as such her own thoughts are present... I.e. she saw rand would fail without moiraine, but she thinks that is impossible because she believes moiraine is dead and gone.

 

It is actually made clear that her viewing about moiraine involved moiraine still being alive, and that was why she believes it failed... This occurs in the meeting with caraline soon after the dead and gone thoughts. Looked at in context its made fairly clear.

[Agitel]

It's not a question of them thinking she's dead, though I agree they all do. It's a question of the Pattern knowing she isn't - and the Pattern is what Min Views.

 

You sound as if you believe Min was commenting on a viewing she was currently seeing, whereas most people interpret it as a viewing that she'd seen before Moiraine had "died". She saw a viewing that Moiraine had a role to play and would be necessary, then Moiraine 'dies'.

[FarShainMael]

Mins viewing wasn't stated verbatim. Rather min wad thinking about the viewing, and as such her own thoughts are present... I.e. she saw rand would fail without moiraine, but she thinks that is impossible because she believes moiraine is dead and gone.

 

It is actually made clear that her viewing about moiraine involved moiraine still being alive, and that was why she believes it failed... This occurs in the meeting with caraline soon after the dead and gone thoughts. Looked at in context its made fairly clear.

 

Yes, we do indeed see Min's thoughts; I said in my OP that it was a great pity we didn't seee the actual Viewing onscreen.

 

I also agree that she had a Viewing about Moiraine that she believes failed because she thinks Moiraine is dead.

 

Context does indeed suggest what you say, but what I have a problem with is the Pattern. To address Agitel's point:

 

It's not a question of them thinking she's dead, though I agree they all do. It's a question of the Pattern knowing she isn't - and the Pattern is what Min Views.

 

You sound as if you believe Min was commenting on a viewing she was currently seeing, whereas most people interpret it as a viewing that she'd seen before Moiraine had "died". She saw a viewing that Moiraine had a role to play and would be necessary, then Moiraine 'dies'.

 

No, as above, and I said explicitly in my OP.

Let's break this down into points:

 

1. Min's Viewings are readings of the Pattern, are always of the future, and are always true (unless something messes with the Pattern itself, but that's by the way).

 

2. At some point Min has a viewing of Rand being dependent on 'a woman who is dead and gone'.

 

3. This viewing may have occurred just prior to her PoV thoughts about it or at some time in the past.

 

4. As Luckers says, she may be translating in her own mind (she did this before, with Alivia and 'helping Rand die')

 

5. She may have

 

a. Viewed a dead woman and thought that was Moiraine;

 

or she may have

 

b. Viewed Moiraine and thought 'no, she was dead'.

 

We don't know which it was. Context (delayed) suggests (b), but since we did not see the actual Viewing, RJ may have intended some ambiguity.

 

6. If what she Viewed was a dead woman, it cannot have been Moiraine, because she's not dead and the Pattern (which is what Min reads) knows it.

 

But I agree there is ambiguity here, and it's a bit of a stretch.

[Feral]

I've just had a thought. Moiraine was not dead; wouldn't Min have seen that in her Viewing? But as I say, we haven't seen it on screen.

 

I'm wondering if it's CynFear. Lanfear did indeed die, and as one of those who made the Bore in the first place, she must have knowledge of how to close it. Which she may make Rand Sedai pay for dearly..

 

That's exactly the thought I had yesterday, hence the question I asked concerning this in the Simple Answers thread. But yeah impossible to say without knowing exactly what she "saw".

[Dream]

1. If the Wheel told Min that the woman was dead and gone then the woman must be dead and gone. This disqualifies Lanfear since she is clearly not gone. So either "dead and gone" was a thought by Min, or Rand will surely fail without the help of someone who is dead and will never make an appearance in the rest of the books (and possibly ever).

 

2. If the woman helping Rand was Cyndane Min would not have recognized her.

 

 

The obvious answer is Moiraine. There isn't much evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Rose]

FSM, the way you say it, you seem to understand it as: Min had a viewing that told her a dead woman would help Rand. The "dead woman" being part of the viewing. I (and most people who disagree here, I think) understand it differently.

 

It seems clear to me that the viewing itself didn't say that the woman was dead and gone. That was Min's interpretation. The viewing was explicitely about Moiraine. But Min knew Moiraine was dead. So she thought: "I saw a viewing about a woman who is dead".

[omaleyb]

The viewing was not about a woman who is dead and gone, but about a woman who Min believes is dead and gone. Moraine.

[FarShainMael]

1. If the Wheel told Min that the woman was dead and gone then the woman must be dead and gone. This disqualifies Lanfear since she is clearly not gone. So either "dead and gone" was a thought by Min, or Rand will surely fail without the help of someone who is dead and will never make an appearance in the rest of the books (and possibly ever).

 

2. If the woman helping Rand was Cyndane Min would not have recognized her.

 

 

The obvious answer is Moiraine. There isn't much evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

1. is a very literal interpretation of Min's own interpretation of what she Viewed, and has to be a bit doubtful.

 

2. Cyndane isn't dead either. Min would have seen Lanfear (if she didn't see Moiraine!)

 

@Rose: The Viewing may have been to tell Min that Rand was now in deep trouble because his source of help was beyond reach.

 

Hey, I like it out here in left field..

[Rose]

Yes, I understand that that's your interpretation. It seems really odd to me, but after all, if you stretch it, it could be possible, so fine. I still don't agree, but there's no point arguing, since my only real argument against your theory is: that's not what the sentence means! ;)

[FarShainMael]

Just so we're both talking about the same thing, could you specify which sentence you mean? I'm not being difficult here, truly, just trying to understand you. If you deal with me as though there were a language barrier, that won't be so far from the truth.

[Rose]

The one about Min's viewing: "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

[FarShainMael]

The one about Min's viewing: "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

But that is Min's interpretation of her own Viewing, so we need to be cautious how we in our turn interpret it. Recall that Min has done this before:

 

Min: "Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you."

Rand: "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

(WH25)

 

PS. Asperger's, in case you're wondering.