Fate of the three oaths

[OneDragon]

I believe that the oathrod(s) in a near future once again only will be used for criminals, perhaps even for non-chanellers with an including weave (similar to the one used for Min bonding Rand) as in the AoL.

 

I could not imagine that with the increase of number and influence of present times chanellers, that any group fully aware of the rods effects (which the WT is or will soon be, hopefully after FoM) would doom themselves with such a restriction.

 

The advantage any other competing group of chanellers would gain after a few hundred years is uncopeable. Even with all of the books, or other advantages of the WT, they would eventually be overcome by other organizations. Egwene holds on to her beliefs strongly but when see realises this, im quite sure she will do the right thing, for the white tower and for the light.

 

So my conclusion is 3oaths = DOOMED!

[Kaznen]

The 3 Oaths were first started sometime between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing. The people of Randland didn't trust AS so the AS used it to gain a measure of trust from the rest of the world. Soon Randland will learn how the Aiel and Sea Folk channlers never needed to use such oaths to stay honest and with the sworn AS not being great schemers and deceivers their authority is going to diminish even more.

 

I think the leaders of Randland will quit listening to the AS when the Windfinders, Wise Ones, Kin, and Asha'man who are unbound treat them with more honesty.

[Hyronimus]

The Aes Sedai are the only one of the channalling groups that move in political circles and take a hand in government.

 

The wise ones do, but on a different scale, and within the constraints of ji'he'to. However the wise ones aren't really a channalling organisation, they just take it upon them selves to look after those who can channel amongst the aiel. It has been stated before that their training isn't on pare with the Aes Sadai.

 

The windfinders are respected sure, but they exist for a fairly singular purpose, calling wind their political wrangaling seems to be about who gets to sail on the biggest ship.

 

The Kin will deffinetly gain more respect, especially as healers. But they don't actively recruit, and their postion relies on taking a back seat to the afairs of the world-closer to nuns.

 

It could be a generation before the Asha'men are anything more than scary soldiers, and then how will they claim to be anything more?

 

I expected the three oaths to be written out as soon as the realisation that it shortened lives came, but now i'm not so sure. i don't think it's reasonable to go back to the AoL way of doing things, at least not for a long while. like an age.

 

So what we need to see is a renewal of their purpose, to mark the Aes Sedai apart and make them worthy of the power they have-in all afairs. The problems is the Aes Sadai have only been bound by the three oaths when they should be living them.

[Kahsm]

The Aes Sedai are the only one of the channalling groups that move in political circles and take a hand in government.

 

The wise ones do, but on a different scale, and within the constraints of ji'he'to. However the wise ones aren't really a channalling organisation, they just take it upon them selves to look after those who can channel amongst the aiel. It has been stated before that their training isn't on pare with the Aes Sadai.

 

The windfinders are respected sure, but they exist for a fairly singular purpose, calling wind their political wrangaling seems to be about who gets to sail on the biggest ship.

 

The Kin will deffinetly gain more respect, especially as healers. But they don't actively recruit, and their postion relies on taking a back seat to the afairs of the world-closer to nuns.

 

It could be a generation before the Asha'men are anything more than scary soldiers, and then how will they claim to be anything more?

 

I expected the three oaths to be written out as soon as the realisation that it shortened lives came, but now i'm not so sure. i don't think it's reasonable to go back to the AoL way of doing things, at least not for a long while. like an age.

 

So what we need to see is a renewal of their purpose, to mark the Aes Sedai apart and make them worthy of the power they have-in all afairs. The problems is the Aes Sadai have only been bound by the three oaths when they should be living them.

 

Well said. The three oaths would be the price of admission to play in the geopolitical arena.

[SylvanFox]

The Three Oaths are probably toast.

 

...though sometimes I wish they'd change the oath not to "speak any work that is untrue" to "Under the Light and my hope of salvation and rebirth, a swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Idle courtroom banter in our world, but imagine if AS had to swear that.

[FarShainMael]

Or simply 'I shall not bear false witness against any person'.

[Hyronimus]

Well said. The three oaths would be the price of admission to play in the geopolitical arena.

cheers, and you said it much shorter than I!

[XXX]

Well said. The three oaths would be the price of admission to play in the geopolitical arena.

cheers, and you said it much shorter than I!

 

Not really...the real basis of admission is the power of the OP over which the AS had a monopoly in Randland till now. Once TG comes and goes...no more "every monarch will come to a Amyrlin nonsense" or the question of paying tributes. Any kingdom can take the support of another chaneeling group say the Asha'man and flip the AS a nice big birdie. And now unlike before there is absolutely nothing the AS can do, well I guess they can throw hissy fits.

 

The female AS power play has ended with this age...and not a moment too soon.

[LazyMonk]

Not really...the real basis of admission is the power of the OP over which the AS had a monopoly in Randland till now. Once TG comes and goes...no more "every monarch will come to a Amyrlin nonsense" or the question of paying tributes. Any kingdom can take the support of another chaneeling group say the Asha'man and flip the AS a nice big birdie. And now unlike before there is absolutely nothing the AS can do, well I guess they can throw hissy fits.

 

The female AS power play has ended with this age...and not a moment too soon.

Unlikely.

WO won't give their direct support to anyone outside the Aiel. Same for sea-folk, they are also a very secluded people.

The Kin are loyal to the AS, and Elayne - wisely - grabbed them already and gave them a home in Caemlyn (if the city hasn't burned down completely).

The Asha'man are feared and mistrusted and won't be a major power for years yet. I don't think they have a place of their own except as part of AS.

 

While many things will change after TG, power centers will shift. The WT will have to share the power, but it'll not decline into obscurity.

[XXX]

Not really...the real basis of admission is the power of the OP over which the AS had a monopoly in Randland till now. Once TG comes and goes...no more "every monarch will come to a Amyrlin nonsense" or the question of paying tributes. Any kingdom can take the support of another chaneeling group say the Asha'man and flip the AS a nice big birdie. And now unlike before there is absolutely nothing the AS can do, well I guess they can throw hissy fits.

 

The female AS power play has ended with this age...and not a moment too soon.

Unlikely.

WO won't give their direct support to anyone outside the Aiel. Same for sea-folk, they are also a very secluded people.

The Kin are loyal to the AS, and Elayne - wisely - grabbed them already and gave them a home in Caemlyn (if the city hasn't burned down completely).

The Asha'man are feared and mistrusted and won't be a major power for years yet. I don't think they have a place of their own except as part of AS.

 

While many things will change after TG, power centers will shift. The WT will have to share the power, but it'll not decline into obscurity.

 

If the Asha'man join the AS..the power of the female AS decrease automatically. If they stay separate,just the presence of another OP group makes sure that the power of the female AS decrease. If the WO and the Aiel play any role in the westland and not go back to their home then the power of the female AS decrease. If the Seachan stay in the 1/3rd part of Randland they occupy today..the power of the female AS decrease.

 

So however you look at it..female AS power monopoly in Randland is at an end.

[FarShainMael]

But the power of the AS in total will be increased. The non-AS rulers of Randland will be much less concerned over the gender of those wielding a Power not available to them than they are over the fact of that Power.

[MasterAblar]

Not really...the real basis of admission is the power of the OP over which the AS had a monopoly in Randland till now. Once TG comes and goes...no more "every monarch will come to a Amyrlin nonsense" or the question of paying tributes. Any kingdom can take the support of another chaneeling group say the Asha'man and flip the AS a nice big birdie. And now unlike before there is absolutely nothing the AS can do, well I guess they can throw hissy fits.

 

The female AS power play has ended with this age...and not a moment too soon.

Unlikely.

WO won't give their direct support to anyone outside the Aiel. Same for sea-folk, they are also a very secluded people.

The Kin are loyal to the AS, and Elayne - wisely - grabbed them already and gave them a home in Caemlyn (if the city hasn't burned down completely).

The Asha'man are feared and mistrusted and won't be a major power for years yet. I don't think they have a place of their own except as part of AS.

 

While many things will change after TG, power centers will shift. The WT will have to share the power, but it'll not decline into obscurity.

 

Well, the Ashaman seem to have done fine so far, and certainly don't seem in any hurry to join with the Aes Sedai, and neither of the 2 groups have any desire to do so anyway. Besides the Ashaman don't really care what people think of them anyway. And not everyone has a bad opinion of them anyway, at least in terms of rulers. Perrin has no problem with them, nor does Bashere, though neither are rulers. But the borderlanders shouldn't have a problem with them, particularly with their role of guardians against the shadow. Any ruler under Rand is probably going to see the positives in them too. Now as far as the general population goes, it'll likely take quite a bit of time for people to get over their fear. The Ashaman's position in the future is probably going to depend quite a bit on their role in the Last Battle.

[Suttree]

Not really...the real basis of admission is the power of the OP over which the AS had a monopoly in Randland till now. Once TG comes and goes...no more "every monarch will come to a Amyrlin nonsense" or the question of paying tributes. Any kingdom can take the support of another chaneeling group say the Asha'man and flip the AS a nice big birdie. And now unlike before there is absolutely nothing the AS can do, well I guess they can throw hissy fits.

 

The female AS power play has ended with this age...and not a moment too soon.

Unlikely.

WO won't give their direct support to anyone outside the Aiel. Same for sea-folk, they are also a very secluded people.

The Kin are loyal to the AS, and Elayne - wisely - grabbed them already and gave them a home in Caemlyn (if the city hasn't burned down completely).

The Asha'man are feared and mistrusted and won't be a major power for years yet. I don't think they have a place of their own except as part of AS.

 

While many things will change after TG, power centers will shift. The WT will have to share the power, but it'll not decline into obscurity.

 

Well, the Ashaman seem to have done fine so far, and certainly don't seem in any hurry to join with the Aes Sedai, and neither of the 2 groups have any desire to do so anyway. Besides the Ashaman don't really care what people think of them anyway. And not everyone has a bad opinion of them anyway, at least in terms of rulers. Perrin has no problem with them, nor does Bashere, though neither are rulers. But the borderlanders shouldn't have a problem with them, particularly with their role of guardians against the shadow. Any ruler under Rand is probably going to see the positives in them too. Now as far as the general population goes, it'll likely take quite a bit of time for people to get over their fear. The Ashaman's position in the future is probably going to depend quite a bit on their role in the Last Battle.

 

Most readers seem to fall prey in thinking our viewpoint is the same as the characters in Randland. 3,000 years of prejudice will take many years to overcome, not to mention how long it will take for every one to be convinced that the taint is actually gone. An author can not be any more clear in painting a picture of how the world feels than in Rand's thoughts below.

 

TGS ch. 5

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

 

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers

 

One other point people seem to be overlooking is Ashaman are warriors, nothing more at this point. When some people say oh a ruler could just turn to them, well to do what? The world will be a different place when the fighting around TG is done. Extra duties will come at some point in the future as they grow, but they don't have any skills to be advisors to thrones or the like. Nor are they capable of negotiating treaties etc. As for now they have a very limited skill set. This is another of the many reasons why the two groups should be working together in the future(guardians balance the servants).

[XXX]

 

 

One other point people seem to be overlooking is Ashaman are warriors, nothing more at this point. When some people say oh a ruler could just turn to them, well to do what? The world will be a different place when the fighting around TG is done. Extra duties will come at some point in the future as they grow, but they don't have any skills to be advisors to thrones or the like. Nor are they capable of negotiating treaties etc. As for now they have a very limited skill set. This is another of the many reasons why the two groups should be working together in the future(guardians balance the servants).

 

To ask the AS to buzz off when they poke their nose in other people's business...the whole basis of AS power is their monopoly on the OP. Without that they are one organization out of many. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Sooner or later one monarch will use the Asha'man as an ally..according to the Seachan even when the men channelers were guaranteed to go mad, factions tried to use them as weapons of war against other factions.

Female AS monopoly on power is at an end and we have been moving towards this from the start of the books.

[Suttree]

 

 

One other point people seem to be overlooking is Ashaman are warriors, nothing more at this point. When some people say oh a ruler could just turn to them, well to do what? The world will be a different place when the fighting around TG is done. Extra duties will come at some point in the future as they grow, but they don't have any skills to be advisors to thrones or the like. Nor are they capable of negotiating treaties etc. As for now they have a very limited skill set. This is another of the many reasons why the two groups should be working together in the future(guardians balance the servants).

 

To ask the AS to buzz off when they poke their nose in other people's business...the whole basis of AS power is their monopoly on the OP. Without that they are one organization out of many. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Sooner or later one monarch will use the Asha'man as an ally..according to the Seachan even when the men channelers were guaranteed to go mad, factions tried to use them as weapons of war against other factions.

Female AS monopoly on power is at an end and we have been moving towards this from the start of the books.

 

[Removed]

 

As for the rest you are saying you think the Ashaman are going to independently sign up with countries to check the power of and fight AS? I wouldn't wait on it, that is a serious pipe dream. Comparing ancient Seanchan culture to the present is a folly. Any one country that tried to use a rogue channeler for purposes of war would be quickly suppressed while the Ashaman would not just let a few men act independently. As for whether countries will even trust them, I direct you to Rand's thoughts above.

[dwn]

As a statement of ideals, the Three Oaths are fairly solid. They basically amount to: Aes Sedai should be trustworthy; Aes Sedai shouldn't use the Power to hurt people; and Aes Sedai shouldn't use the Power to help people hurt each other.

 

The fact is--as Egwene and Nynaeve have pointed out obliquely--the binding nature of the Oath Rod has, over time, encouraged the Aes Sedai adhere to the letter of the oaths rather than the spirit. The oaths have become shackles to be fought against instead of ideals to be sought after.

 

I expect the Aes Sedai will retain the oaths but stop using the Oath Rod to enforce them. The ascension of other groups of channelers will reduce the need to make the Aes Sedai appear "safe" to society. The revelation of the age-limiting effects of the Oath Rod will undermine the desire to keep using it.

 

-- dwn

[Lisa Campbell]

As a statement of ideals, the Three Oaths are fairly solid. They basically amount to: Aes Sedai should be trustworthy; Aes Sedai shouldn't use the Power to hurt people; and Aes Sedai shouldn't use the Power to help people hurt each other.

 

The fact is--as Egwene and Nynaeve have pointed out obliquely--the binding nature of the Oath Rod has, over time, encouraged the Aes Sedai adhere to the letter of the oaths rather than the spirit. The oaths have become shackles to be fought against instead of ideals to be sought after.

 

I expect the Aes Sedai will retain the oaths but stop using the Oath Rod to enforce them. The ascension of other groups of channelers will reduce the need to make the Aes Sedai appear "safe" to society. The revelation of the age-limiting effects of the Oath Rod will undermine the desire to keep using it.

 

-- dwn

 

Just had a thought, maybe Elayne can make an Oath Rod that doesn't cut life-span in half.

[Beer Rot]

As long as the AS still hang to the idea that they are the only ones capable to deal with politics and all the leaders should listen to them, there will be a problem there.

The AoL AS found a way to balance what they require from the world leaders, and what they can give back as help. The AS from today are a looong way from that point, and as long as they keep their closed doors policy and they distance themselves from everybody else, they will not succeed in not keeping the oaths, but trying to maintain the same level of control as before.

 

 

 

Every other channeler group other than the AS work for their position in their society. The AS take it for granted, and do little in return.

Until this changes, they'll have to keep the oaths if they want the others to trust them and keep their meddling in their affairs to a minimum.

 

 

You are under a misconception, namely that the WT/AS meddle in politics just to meddle, or just because they have the Power to.

 

They don't. Its been clearly stated, and inferred that their number one priority for existing is to keep nations together and peaceful and memory of the DO alive to be ready for TG. Sure as time has passed, especially since they cut into their own lifespans, a lot of the Why for what they were doing has become murky. And they're not doing a terribly good job of it, as most people south of the Blight don't even believe in shadowspawn. Although a lot of that blame can be placed on Ishy rather than the WT.

 

Their use as a political organization is finished the minute the Bore is sealed, and they can go back to being their namesake.

 

 

 

Someone mentioned the amount of oaths sworn cuts increases the percentage of the lifespan cut, I sincerely doubt that.

[Xcorpyo001]

You are under a misconception, namely that the WT/AS meddle in politics just to meddle, or just because they have the Power to.

 

They don't. Its been clearly stated, and inferred that their number one priority for existing is to keep nations together and peaceful and memory of the DO alive to be ready for TG. Sure as time has passed, especially since they cut into their own lifespans, a lot of the Why for what they were doing has become murky. And they're not doing a terribly good job of it, as most people south of the Blight don't even believe in shadowspawn. Although a lot of that blame can be placed on Ishy rather than the WT.

 

Their use as a political organization is finished the minute the Bore is sealed, and they can go back to being their namesake.

 

 

 

Someone mentioned the amount of oaths sworn cuts increases the percentage of the lifespan cut, I sincerely doubt that.

 

[Removed]

 

Most people fear or mistrust the AS because they stop trying to live by their oaths, they just tried to circumvent them, to a point in which almost everybody knows that AS are manipulative and can distort the truth, even if they can't lie directly.

They kept all their failures secret(loosing the seals, Manetheren, Malkier, Hawkwing, BA), and some of those things can come back to haunt them.

 

[Removed]

 

EDIT:

I'll just add the last line again, it was actually on topic.

In my opinion, they should have just one oath, to not interfere in the politics of Randland in any way.

No more meddling will mean that they don't have to lie anymore, or interfere in wars in any way, so the other two oaths can be touched a little, although there is a lot of room to wiggle.

[Suttree]

[Removed]

[MasterAblar]

[Removed]

[yoniy0]

People, let me remind you that this isn't the topic to discuss AS competence. If you want to discuss that, go here. On this thread we will discuss only those behaviors that are directly relevant to the future of the Three Oaths.

 

Your cooperation is appreciated.

 

PS

If I removed part of your posts above, you can contact me for a copy of the text it contained.

[Beer Rot]

You are under a misconception, namely that the WT/AS meddle in politics just to meddle, or just because they have the Power to.

 

They don't. Its been clearly stated, and inferred that their number one priority for existing is to keep nations together and peaceful and memory of the DO alive to be ready for TG. Sure as time has passed, especially since they cut into their own lifespans, a lot of the Why for what they were doing has become murky. And they're not doing a terribly good job of it, as most people south of the Blight don't even believe in shadowspawn. Although a lot of that blame can be placed on Ishy rather than the WT.

 

Their use as a political organization is finished the minute the Bore is sealed, and they can go back to being their namesake.

 

 

 

Someone mentioned the amount of oaths sworn cuts increases the percentage of the lifespan cut, I sincerely doubt that.

 

[Removed]

 

Most people fear or mistrust the AS because they stop trying to live by their oaths, they just tried to circumvent them, to a point in which almost everybody knows that AS are manipulative and can distort the truth, even if they can't lie directly.

They kept all their failures secret(loosing the seals, Manetheren, Malkier, Hawkwing, BA), and some of those things can come back to haunt them.

 

[Removed]

 

EDIT:

I'll just add the last line again, it was actually on topic.

In my opinion, they should have just one oath, to not interfere in the politics of Randland in any way.

No more meddling will mean that they don't have to lie anymore, or interfere in wars in any way, so the other two oaths can be touched a little, although there is a lot of room to wiggle.

 

Most people fear or mistrust the AS because they sit in the tower and dragging kingdoms around for no known reason. The AS were too hush hush about why they do what they do. Most people, as has been stated in the books, have no idea that there are Oaths, or what they entail... just gleeman tales about not trusting what they say. That is a result of the first Oath, and their needing to use manipulation and double talk to skirt around it.

 

The Oaths have done nothing but bind and hinder them. As for their failures, I fail to see how the BA or Hawkwing are failures. Hawkwing was under the direct influence of Ishy, and most of the AS didn't even believe in the BA. They had no idea that oaths could be removed once sworn. Sure that could have been slightly taken care of by just asking an AS if she were a DF the moment the oaths were sworn, but that would not catch those that become DFs later on.

 

I think at the least, Elayne will get info from Rand and/or the RJ statuette that will allow her to make a rod without the life cutting effects. In the long run, the oaths will fall off.