Fate of the three oaths

[LazyMonk]

It seems to me that the three oaths are destined to disappear.

 

Assuming that Egwene's plan to retire Aes Sedai to the Kin works. In 100-200 years, all the eldest, most experienced, powerful channelers will of the Kin and not Aes Sedai(!)

Whatever they do, as time passes, the Kin will become more and more influential and Aes Sedai still bound by oath will be the "inexperienced young ones".

 

Also, it's safe to assume that the Asha'man, with numerous bondings, are on their way to become part of Aes Sedai and not a separate institute. And I can't see Asha'man accepting oaths like Aes Sedai.

What will happen when Asha'man start to out-live Aes Sedai? When warders start to out-live their Aes Sedai? In 300 years, the eldest, most experienced, powerful channelers in the White Tower will male(!!).

 

In face of all that, if the three oaths are not renounced, White Tower Aes Sedai's position and influence will gradually decline in favor of the Kin and the Asha'man.

[Lisa Campbell]

Perhaps, I think Rand may tell Egwene a few home truths in aMoL. He may find out her plans for the Kin - Aes Sedai retirement plan from Elayne (assuming she has some with her for Gateways, her grasp on the Power is too unreliable for her to have gotten to the Field of Merrilor herself and/or she might want to leave in a hurry) and ask Egwene that if she knows the lifespan effect of the oaths, why are they still bound like criminals?

[Xcorpyo001]

It will probably be a gradual passing, starting with fewer oaths.

For example, they could make a list of rules, like "Rules of Conduct", that can contain all the oaths and more, and make one single oath, to follow all the rules in the 'Rules of Conduct' list.

 

 

That will at least increase their life expectancy, one oath being less binding than three. They'll probably lose just 20-25% of their life expectancy, and it will have to do until the world will trust them enough to not ask this oath from the AS.

[randsc]

It is most sincerely to be hoped that the One Power will be inaccessible in the future, resulting in the Three Oaths becoming largely meaningless, and in any case not enforced by any sort of magical compulsion.

[Pinzarn]

It doesn't matter since all of the channelers will be collared by the Seanchan.

 

Back to the topic at hand...

 

I think the White Tower would be seen as a political organization where as the Kin is a group of channelers with no political ties (wink, wink). In the long run once more and more of the influential Aes Sedai retire in to the Kin, I can see the it progressing back toward the AoL type of Aes Sedai. Instead of a being a manipulative, "better than you" group of channelers, they will becomes the Servants to All.

[Kahsm]

It is most sincerely to be hoped that the One Power will be inaccessible in the future, resulting in the Three Oaths becoming largely meaningless, and in any case not enforced by any sort of magical compulsion.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you even like fantasy at all.

 

But anyway, maybe they'll become meaningless because Egwene will be so awesome she'll rebuild the world's trust in Aes Sedai and they simply won't be required anymore because people won't fear them as they did in the past (and present). Just throwing that out there.

[Xcorpyo001]

It is most sincerely to be hoped that the One Power will be inaccessible in the future, resulting in the Three Oaths becoming largely meaningless, and in any case not enforced by any sort of magical compulsion.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you even like fantasy at all.

 

But anyway, maybe they'll become meaningless because Egwene will be so awesome she'll rebuild the world's trust in Aes Sedai and they simply won't be required anymore because people won't fear them as they did in the past (and present). Just throwing that out there.

 

 

You on the other side seem to like fantasy a little to much.

If they want to remove the oaths, they have to find another way of control, like open Hall meetings where anyone can participate, any decision/law by the tower has to be approved by the world leaders, etc.

[Kahsm]

It is most sincerely to be hoped that the One Power will be inaccessible in the future, resulting in the Three Oaths becoming largely meaningless, and in any case not enforced by any sort of magical compulsion.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you even like fantasy at all.

 

But anyway, maybe they'll become meaningless because Egwene will be so awesome she'll rebuild the world's trust in Aes Sedai and they simply won't be required anymore because people won't fear them as they did in the past (and present). Just throwing that out there.

 

 

You on the other side seem to like fantasy a little to much.

If they want to remove the oaths, they have to find another way of control, like open Hall meetings where anyone can participate, any decision/law by the tower has to be approved by the world leaders, etc.

 

I'm ok with that.

 

Why? They are not a political layer. They don't represent any people (outside their own city state). World leaders can refuse their help/advice if they choose. I'm not saying Aes Sedai shouldn't consult with others, but that would be part of the confidence building. The Teal ajah, dedicated to public consultation ;)

 

In theory, their "control" would come from respect, not fear. People would want and accept their advice because they perceive the "witches" know what they're talking about. That's a big change, yes, hence why I said it was wwaaaay outside the scope of the series.

[Sharaman]

The societies of the AoL, the Seafolk, the Aiel all seemed to manage having unbound channelers around perfectly well.

No reason why the Westland can't.

[Xcorpyo001]

The societies of the AoL, the Seafolk, the Aiel all seemed to manage having unbound channelers around perfectly well.

No reason why the Westland can't.

 

 

As long as the AS still hang to the idea that they are the only ones capable to deal with politics and all the leaders should listen to them, there will be a problem there.

The AoL AS found a way to balance what they require from the world leaders, and what they can give back as help. The AS from today are a looong way from that point, and as long as they keep their closed doors policy and they distance themselves from everybody else, they will not succeed in not keeping the oaths, but trying to maintain the same level of control as before.

 

The Seafolk channelers don't try to control everything in their society, so they don't have a problem with their people.

 

The WO do meddle in the affairs of the Aiel, maybe more than the AS, but they are clearly more successful in doing it because they don't leave their lives behind, and are also serving their people to the best of their ability. Healing, advice, etc.

And since they don't go on the 'I'm to awesome to let a man touch me or birth a child' wagon, the Aiel see them as family, friends, not a social class that has no other purpose than control their lives and show off how better they are than everybody else.

And the Aiel having a ji'e'toh system that forbids them to harm an WO in any way also helps.

 

Every other channeler group other than the AS work for their position in their society. The AS take it for granted, and do little in return.

Until this changes, they'll have to keep the oaths if they want the others to trust them and keep their meddling in their affairs to a minimum.

[Luckers]

I've suggested before the possibility that Cadsuane might be influential in this. She's strong enough in herself to face the truth of the Oaths, and decide to go against everything she's always believed--especially under the whole thought of 'if I weren't willing to give up the shawl to continue the service it represents, do I deserve it?'.

 

Moreover she's the perfect example of why the 'retire into the Kin' is is dangerous to the Aes Sedai institution--Cadsuane gets her way for being Cadsuane, and even if she tried to not make waves she would. She'd show what the Kin could become if all the most experienced Aes Sedai are within it. Plus the awe and respect most sisters have for her would be a powerful tool toward them getting over the importance they place upon the Oaths.

[Kaznen]

I think the Three Oaths are from the geas in Celtic legend. Others have quit throughly posted the differences of other channlers in WoT as opposed to the AS of Randland. Mo in NS gave the reason why and Rand in LoC gave the effect of why the AS are distrusted.

 

Mo said it was hard to watch your family, husband, and children die of old age. So the AS cut themselves off from loved ones and focus on the Tower instead.

 

Rand thought the WT's greatest mistake was cutting themselves away from the world. Because they were so detached they didn't see how their decisions effect persons.

 

The Windfinders, Wise Ones, and AM all have families and are a "part" of their society. While the Kin don't they were in the streets and amongst the people.

 

I do believe the WT is on its last breath. I was surprised in ToM the Sea Folk and Aiel didn't see through what Egwene was doing. I think when Rand hears about it he'll laugh and say jokingly, "So you're going to let the White Tower control you, eh?" And they'll be like, "...crap, he's right. Never bargin with an AS."

[Suttree]

I do believe the WT is on its last breath. I was surprised in ToM the Sea Folk and Aiel didn't see through what Egwene was doing. I think when Rand hears about it he'll laugh and say jokingly, "So you're going to let the White Tower control you, eh?" And they'll be like, "...crap, he's right. Never bargin with an AS."

 

Or you know they didn't see through it because it was a good deal all around that will foster understanding in the long run and as Egwene said in her own words they will not be trying to control the other groups...

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...If we try and hold too tightly to all of this we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

You're crazy if you don't think all the groups will be jockeying for leadership. You don't think Sorilea will be pulling strings behind close doors? All three groups know this going in, hence Eggy's "have to play best" comment.

[randsc]

Suttree, that post is self-contradictory.

 

Is it to be an alliance of equals where no one will try to control the other groups, or is it to be a contest with all of the groups jockeying for leadership?

 

It's one or the other, or neither. But it can't be both.

[Rose]

Whatever it is, it is not a one-sided deal in which the Tower wins and the others lose.

[Suttree]

Suttree, that post is self-contradictory.

 

Is it to be an alliance of equals where no one will try to control the other groups, or is it to be a contest with all of the groups jockeying for leadership?

 

It's one or the other, or neither. But it can't be both.

 

Jockeying for position in an alliance and trying to control the other groups as an absolute ruler are vastly different things as you know. Maybe my wording didn't make it clear but I suspect you knew what I meant, I realize it has been a while and you couldn't resist.

 

You know very well all will be "playing the game", feigning the innocent in that regards doesn't suit you all that well.

[Luckers]

This topic is about the oaths. The rest belongs solely in the aes sedai/egwenr thread.

[Luckers]

Apparently I need to be clearer. Discussion of Egwene's interaction with the Wise Ones and Windfinders constitutes treadjacking under the stuck topic policy. As such it belongs ONLY in the Egwene/Aes Sedai thread. This thread is on the subject of the future of the Oaths.

 

Comments that ignored my initial instruction have been removed.

[Hyronimus]

Also, it's safe to assume that the Asha'man, with numerous bondings, are on their way to become part of Aes Sedai and not a separate institute. And I can't see Asha'man accepting oaths like Aes Sedai

 

I mentioned this a while ago. It was only one moment, so hardly difinitive, but the scene in ToM where Androl is fixing the brace he imprints the words, Defend, Guard, Protect, for me forshadowed not just the Asha'mens growing sense of their role in the world but three oaths that they would swear so they may take their place by the side of the women.

 

I don't know if the world will be ready for unbound channellers. If the vision through the glass columns tells us anything, the world still won't be perfect after the last battle and trust will still be in short supply. Of course, the men might have their own 'kin', but i still think them taking oaths fits.

 

I wonder what they might Guard, Defend, and Protect? (on topic i hope!)

[FarShainMael]

If Elayne makes and distributes lots of copies of Mat's foxhead, this would reduce the 'political' power of the AS (not sure if that's quite the word I wanted). In particular if 'foxheads' were given to all of Randland's rulers they would be less in fear/awe of the AS, and the ostensible reason for the Oaths - to remove that fear - would no longer apply.

[Xcorpyo001]

If Elayne makes and distributes lots of copies of Mat's foxhead, this would reduce the 'political' power of the AS (not sure if that's quite the word I wanted). In particular if 'foxheads' were given to all of Randland's rulers they would be less in fear/awe of the AS, and the ostensible reason for the Oaths - to remove that fear - would no longer apply.

 

 

On the other hand, the medallions will be a constant remainder that they need protection from the AS.

Oaths or medallions, it will still be the same.

They need to change to their core before they'll be able to be released from the oaths without everybody else freaking out.

 

There's one thing I don't get. Why bother swearing the oaths, since nobody can attest that they did that?

The test is in secret, the swearing of the oaths is also in secret, and no one else besides the AS know they swore.

All they have to do is stop swearing it, but lie to everybody else that they are keeping the oaths. After all, they do lie to people, even if only by omission or any other way they might find.

As long as the sister don't break the oaths publicly, or are not caught in the lie, they should be safe.

 

I don't understand how the people are so sure the AS are swearing oaths. After all, all they have to go on is the word of another AS, since the oaths are not swore in the middle of the city, but in a room where are only AS.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the Whitecloaks have a right to be circumspect about the oaths.

[FarShainMael]

Their ability to lie, at least, can be tested, surely?

[LazyMonk]

There's one thing I don't get. Why bother swearing the oaths, since nobody can attest that they did that?

The test is in secret, the swearing of the oaths is also in secret, and no one else besides the AS know they swore.

All they have to do is stop swearing it, but lie to everybody else that they are keeping the oaths. After all, they do lie to people, even if only by omission or any other way they might find.

As long as the sister don't break the oaths publicly, or are not caught in the lie, they should be safe.

 

I don't understand how the people are so sure the AS are swearing oaths. After all, all they have to go on is the word of another AS, since the oaths are not swore in the middle of the city, but in a room where are only AS.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the Whitecloaks have a right to be circumspect about the oaths.

This could actually be a welcome compromise.

Instead of secret oaths bound by the oath rod. Take the oaths like any other honorable person -- an oath under the light that only a darkfriend will break. And make the swearing a public event.

[Xcorpyo001]

Their ability to lie, at least, can be tested, surely?

 

 

How? The only way they managed to test that was with an adam, and the people of Randland didn't had that for the last 3000 years.

 

X: Lie to me!

AS: I can't!

X: K, I believe you

 

That's not a good test. They should at least make the swearing of the oaths a public display, so anyone could see it happening.

Actually, they could just swear it on a stick, and no one except the one doing it would know, or someone that can use the OP and can see something happening, which I can't seem to remember reading about.

 

So, for the last 3000 years, they believed that the AS are swearing oaths not to lie, because the AS told them they are taking oaths not to lie. A huge leap of faith.

[randsc]

Their ability to lie, at least, can be tested, surely?

 

 

Ummm, no. And the fact that this particular Oath can be circumvented was a major plot point in the last book.

 

Even with the "re-swearing" on the Oath Rod, only those who can see the weave know that it is being done. Or that the Oath Rod is actually the Oath Rod.