Three questions about Weaving

[Andhaira]

-Once a weave is cast, how long does the residue last? How long can some other channeler come and copy the weave from the residue and duplicate the effect?

 

-Can males see Saidin being woven, like women can see Saidar woven? Why hasn't there been a duel between male channelers like there was with Moggy and Nynaeve, where they were consistantly cutting each others weaves?

 

-Gateways: Can someone open a gateway to the exact same location someone else opened it too just by looking at the weave residue? If so, how is this possible, as the location to be Travelled to would have been in the head of the person who originally opened the Gateway?

 

Thanks!

 

Oh and another thing that has been bothering me: How did Padan Fain kill those Asha'man? I mean, is he invulnerable to the One Power or something? If not, why didn't they just blast him into oblivion?

[omaleyb]

Reading residues is a Talent and not everyone can do it. I think the strength required to make a weave has an effect on the length the residue lasts, but I think it can be a few moments to hours.

 

Yes, males can see Saidin weaves and most of the male battles have been fought at a distance instead of up close like the Nynaeve/Moggy fight.

 

Yes, if one can read the residue they can mak a gateway to the same place. It's the weave that dictates where the gate opens which is why if someone just opens a gateway without any thought in mind to where they are going it can open anywhere, even the bottom of the ocean. They didn't think of the bottom of the ocean, but their random weaving created a Gateway to a random place anyway.

 

If you are referring to the scene in Far Madding when Rand is trying to kill the Asha'man and Fain shows up, the Asha'man could not channel because they were in Far Madding, which is protected against the OP by a Ter'angrel.

[Shini]

Darnit, I was too slow ^^

Anyways, here's a quote from the The Crown of Swords when Rand is invading Illian;

 

The residue of Sammael’s gateway hung in the air, the dissipating flows like faintly glowing ghosts. Not so faint Rand could not make them out, though. He began to weave, then stopped. He had leaped up here without a thought of a trap. If he copied what he saw exactly, he would step out wherever Sammael had, or so close as made no difference. But with just a slight alteration; no way to be sure whether the change was fifty feet or five hundred, yet either was close enough.

 

I hope that helps a bit atleast :)

[Andhaira]

Thanks for the replies. So not everyone can see reisdues? Does this apply to both males and females?

 

Another question: Is there a brew time forchanneler lightning? That is, can a channeler summon lightning from the sky instantaneously or does he or she need to weave for a little while before it can happen? Also, do there need to be clouds in the sky for the lightning to happen?

[Dastion]

Lightning can be woven from a clear sky, there are several references to this throughout the books. However, it is implied that it may be easier to do so from a stormy sky as Egwene and Avienda put forth the effort to create one during the fight with the Shaido.

 

I can't help but wonder, are you listening to the books on audio? If you're missing things like the inability to channel in Far Madding (something referenced nearly every other sentence) then I'm not sure you're really getting the full experience.

[mackoY-kun]

-Can males see Saidin being woven, like women can see Saidar woven? Why hasn't there been a duel between male channelers like there was with Moggy and Nynaeve, where they were consistantly cutting each others weaves?

There was, when Rand and Asmo were fighting over the Choedan Cal.

 

And your problem is not your own. I also once thought that only the Women can see Saidar being woven. And the Men can only "feel" Saidin being woven. I was dumbfounded when my brother explained it to me. It seem that the difference was with feeling the ability in another channeller.

[Luckers]

-Gateways: Can someone open a gateway to the exact same location someone else opened it too just by looking at the weave residue? If so, how is this possible, as the location to be Travelled to would have been in the head of the person who originally opened the Gateway?

 

 

Yes, but the place and the weave must be exactly identical (presumably to get that element of targeting and location you raised). It can be done, as has been quoted, but Egwene at another point said that getting that exactly identical nature was not easy.

[Kahsm]

My answers only pose more questions. hehe.

 

-Once a weave is cast, how long does the residue last? How long can some other channeler come and copy the weave from the residue and duplicate the effect?

 

Doesn't last long. In the battle of Cairhien, the tower is destroyed by lightning and Rand notes how the residue was already fading after he had fallen and gotten up to inspect it. That's when he realizes it wasn't Admo because the residue moved off in the other direction. Interesting note, if you were fast enough (almost impossibly so) you could trace the residue right back to where the channeler was standing.

 

Reading residues is a Talent and not everyone can do it. I think the strength required to make a weave has an effect on the length the residue lasts, but I think it can be a few moments to hours.

 

I was under this impression too, but I can't remember why. Is there a reliable quote for this? Moir, Rand, Avi... all seem to have this 'talent'. Moir is often scrubbing the area to remove residue from her weavings, so if it's a talent she must figure it's not very rare? And there's supposedly a weave women can use to detect the residue of a Man's channeling, but they can't always see their own? That seems silly.

 

-Can males see Saidin being woven, like women can see Saidar woven? Why hasn't there been a duel between male channelers like there was with Moggy and Nynaeve, where they were consistantly cutting each others weaves?

There was, when Rand and Asmo were fighting over the Choedan Cal.

 

And your problem is not your own. I also once thought that only the Women can see Saidar being woven. And the Men can only "feel" Saidin being woven. I was dumbfounded when my brother explained it to me. It seem that the difference was with feeling the ability in another channeller.

 

This is true, but it wasn't "slicing" waves, it was described as "deflecting" the strikes. And we weren't really told what the nature of those strikes were. But that's because it was Rand's PoV and he had no idea. But then after we find out the city was pretty much destroyed and all the mountain/hills around it were nearly flattened or misshapen.

 

The point is, there's no reason that men couldn't fight in the way Nyn/Mogh did. Unless... men can't make their spirit sharp enough? Nyneave and Egwene both note how difficult it is to hold the sharp edge on a shield (what makes it a stilling weave). And if women have more "fine" control over weaving to balance men's strength, maybe men can't get their spirit flows sharp enough to slice weaves but can only deflect them. This could explain why they tend to rely on fireballs and blowing shit up.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Kael Pyralis

[Ferdawoon]

I am not sure these are two different things: There is a talent to read residues, but there is also a way to use your own weaves to try to sense a resonance. I'm trying to find any source for this but cannot find anything, so maybe I dreamed this..

Apparently there is a way for women to be able to find out what a man have channeled ("There is almost no way for a woman to tell when a man is channeling, though the residues of his channeling can be detected using an appropriate weave." http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power'>http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power) and I think it is the thing about resonance.

 

The reason you might think that men cannot see weaves is probably because men cannot really see if another man hold saidin, at least not the way women do with the bright aura of light. ("A man can sense when another man is holding saidin, though not in the way women do: a man would describe it as a feeling of awe and menace -- with nothing truly visible -- and not easily pinpointed to a particular location or person." http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power)

 

Also, I might have this confused with some other books, but the reason there have not been any fights like the one between Nyn and Moggy but between two men, is because men apparently rather fight with offensice attacks like fire and lightning instead of the more "subtle" act of shielding. We see Rand fighting Rhavin in TAR by encasing him in roaring fire, instead of just cutting off his link to the One Power or something similar.

It could also just be that Rand have fought to kill while Moggy and Nyn fought to capture and survive.

[Dastion]

This is true. Men often fight with something which can be described simply as lightning, balefire, etc. though there are cases where weaving is described by the channeler, I can't think of any where a male observes the actual weaving of another male.

 

That also reminds me of something I thought was odd before, when Asmo is training Rand he mentions how it would be easier if they had a link. I always thought that was just RJ showing Asmo's devious nature in trying to get Rand to come up with the idea of linking them by bringing the naive Egwene into his secret to link them.

 

However, we have several instances of rand or an Asha'man learning from another channeler. Rand learns from Sammael, and the Ashaman learn new weaves from him. But I still can't think of any specific instance where a male channeler refers to the individual weaves of another male rather than feeling Saidin or seeing the result.

[rand4747]

with linking it probably just helps you learn when its your power thats doing the weaving. Also asmodean is too weak for alot of stuff so if he used the power from someone stronger like Rand he could do it.

[damandred]

Logain can see rands weaves at the fight at Algarin's manner house. He says to rand "did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways.......... I just copied your weave exactly. And earlier in the fight rand sees logains weaves pull the heat out of the fires. Lastly rand cut lanfears weave in cairhien.

[Arkane101]

I'm thinking any saidin channeler can see residue of saidin, and any saidar can see residue of saidar, but only those with the talent can read it.

[Kahsm]

I'm thinking any saidin channeler can see residue of saidin, and any saidar can see residue of saidar, but only those with the talent can read it.

 

Ooo la la, that's an interesting distinction. That could very well be true, bravo. Explains why Moir would often remove the residues back in the early books, just to hide she had done "something" not what it was.

[water_seeker]

I'm thinking any saidin channeler can see residue of saidin, and any saidar can see residue of saidar, but only those with the talent can read it.

 

Ooo la la, that's an interesting distinction. That could very well be true, bravo. Explains why Moir would often remove the residues back in the early books, just to hide she had done "something" not what it was.

 

When did she do that?

[omaleyb]

I think you are missing the distinction of seeing someone use a weave and then copying it and reading a residue of a weave that you didn't see made. Channelers can see other channelers (of the same kind, saidar/saidin) weaves when they are made, but to read a residue (maybe even to see a residue) after the fact is a completely different task. It is stated in the books that reading residues is a Talent.

[yoniy0]

Explains why Moir would often remove the residues back in the early books, just to hide she had done "something" not what it was.

Because Myrrdraal can also sense residues of the OP, and the gang were trying to lie low.

[MasterAblar]

This is true. Men often fight with something which can be described simply as lightning, balefire, etc. though there are cases where weaving is described by the channeler, I can't think of any where a male observes the actual weaving of another male.

 

That also reminds me of something I thought was odd before, when Asmo is training Rand he mentions how it would be easier if they had a link. I always thought that was just RJ showing Asmo's devious nature in trying to get Rand to come up with the idea of linking them by bringing the naive Egwene into his secret to link them.

 

However, we have several instances of rand or an Asha'man learning from another channeler. Rand learns from Sammael, and the Ashaman learn new weaves from him. But I still can't think of any specific instance where a male channeler refers to the individual weaves of another male rather than feeling Saidin or seeing the result.

 

Aginor/Osangar/Dashiva prepares a few weaves described by Rand as "nasty", if I remember correctly, in case Rand wants him to clear his chamber of the AS. This happens at the end of aCoS, in the last or second to last chapter, right after Rand wakes up for the first time after being cut by Fain's dagger, right before he goes off to Ilian to fight Sammael.

[Dastion]

Aginor/Osangar/Dashiva prepares a few weaves described by Rand as "nasty", if I remember correctly, in case Rand wants him to clear his chamber of the AS. This happens at the end of aCoS, in the last or second to last chapter, right after Rand wakes up for the first time after being cut by Fain's dagger, right before he goes off to Ilian to fight Sammael.

Good point! I couldn't think of an example at the time, and I dislike telling someone they are wrong without proof or an example. I did later think of the confrontation between Arangar and Flinn's Circle, he described having the "webs" flung at him.

 

As I recall from the description of the event you brought up, Rand said that he could tell from the weave that it would leave them in too much pain to consider channeling.

[mb]

About reading residues, this is what encyclopaedia tells::

Reading Residues

All channelers can detect the residue of weavings, but some have this ability so refined that they can read and duplicate a weaving as much as two days after it has dissipated. Aviendha has this Talent. (TPoD,Ch2)

There are weaves that a woman can use to detect the resonance of the residue of saidin. The weaves do not detect saidin weaves directly. (Tor Website Q&A)

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/weaves.html

[rand4747]

weaves can be felt though although theres no way it can be told what it is really. They seem to be solid to other threads of power, so you can use the power to "feel" around it. Although when Rand is having a go at the shields on him he doesn't even have the power couse hes shielded but I assume something about the connection lets you "feel" around and undo the weaves.

[Saelgaire]

Quote

This is true, but it wasn't "slicing" weaves, it was described as "deflecting" the strikes. And we weren't really told what the nature of those strikes were. But that's because it was Rand's PoV and he had no idea. But then after we find out the city was pretty much destroyed and all the mountain/hills around it were nearly flattened or misshapen.

 

The point is, there's no reason that men couldn't fight in the way Nyn/Mogh did. Unless... men can't make their spirit sharp enough? Nyneave and Egwene both note how difficult it is to hold the sharp edge on a shield (what makes it a stilling weave). And if women have more "fine" control over weaving to balance men's strength, maybe men can't get their spirit flows sharp enough to slice weaves but can only deflect them. This could explain why they tend to rely on fireballs and blowing crap up.

In rand's fight with lanfear on the docs, he says spirit woven with fire and earth just so, when he slices her weave. He later talks about the difficulty in slicing weaves that he can't see. I am not sure about this, but it might be that cutting weaves depends greatly on the weave you are using. The weave Nyneave and Moghedien are slicing were all spirit trying to sever or shield. When rand slicing lanfear's she is making the girls feel pain with nothing visibly described except standing on tip toe. It is possible that she was crushing with air or using spirit to cause pain in the same way that A'dam does.

 

Either way later in the fight, he has to slice based on when he feels his weave being sliced, right? So, it seems like certain weaves can be sliced like a shield or most weaves of spirit.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Saelgaire