[Advanced] Lily's Mythical Beings Mafia

[Sakaea]

Red is starting the game as always - town or scum. FOS. FOS. FOS. Not much to say about it jet.

 

 

FOS Hybrid for jumping on a bandwagon. and UNVOTE RED before this goes any further. Joke vote bandwagons are ridiculous.

 

 

 

If Red turns out to be scum later in this game I will remember this.

 

I see your point, but I unvoted because my joke vote was being piled on, and still kind of is. That was not my intention. Just clarifying.

[LilyElizabeth]

A reminder - when posting in discussions about mafia, please don't make reference to ongoing games.

[hazelkrs1]

I'm going to steal a page from Kiv's book:

 

Desp, they call me the WoT queen on DM for a reason. and theres a difference between a pro-town argument which helps us get scum; and the type of argument your now doing which is more of a distrction rather than scum hunting.

 

your points are flawed, and i'm opening another thread on this board to discuss why.

 

 

you seem to be pushing really hard against the No Lynch adn trying a bit to much to explain yourself and sell your vote reason. me thinks your an opportunistic scum that decided to jump on the first thing he saw as a "legit vote"

 

Ok.

 

A reminder - when posting in discussions about mafia, please don't make reference to ongoing games.

 

sorry Lils

[Red2111]

okay, i have my response for that typed up, i'll save it until the threads unlocked ^^ until then i think that we need to move past the merits of a no-lynch and "anti-town/pro-town" moves becuase it's doing nothing to help us catch scum.

 

voting for me because of the "No Lynch is fine" but the discussion steming from it is distracting imo

 

 

I dunno, the arguments we were having in that mafia game seem to have deflated everyone somewhat. But I guess I'll respond to a couple points, quickly if I can:

 

About the "blatant bandwagoning", by saying that's what he was doing, he was poking fun at the concept, a little tongue in cheek if you will. Then he backed up his vote with an argument, which took it out of the blatant bandwagoning territory.

 

actually, i took the "blatant bandwagon" comment as him stating exactly what his vote was; rather than what Sakaea did with her "joke" vote and try to cover it up with an excuse. also, i see the "reason" hybrid listed to validate his blantant bandwagon vote as BS, which is why i'm still wavign the BS flag at him about it.

 

 

Once again, I don't think Red voting no lynch early is on is immediately a policy-lynch type offense, but were she to have her vote stay there and convince others to go no lynch themselves, then she is potentially lifting scum off the hook. And yes, her moves have inadvertently created pressure on someone-herself.

 

Yet this is why your voting me. you keep claiming i'm advocating the No-Lynch which is wrong. i'm pointing out the merits to a No Lynch Day 1 vote versus that of a Joke Vote. i'm not trying to convince others to vote No-Lynch nor am i implying that this is the way the vote should roll today. something you keep insisting that i'm doing. please, quote where i've pressured anyone in this game to vote "No Lynch" or stated that this is what i the vote should be today.

 

 

True, she has gotten discussions started and whatnot, but this doesn't necessarily mean she's not scum. Mafia hiding behind "pro-town" moves, especially early on, are showing a great way to try and get past everyone's initial scumdar.

 

oh i totally agree, scum hide behind "helpful townie" all the time. theres no reason, as a townie, that you shouldn't suspect anyone who seems to have good intentions in this game. its all about how you interpret their motives and what your gut says, at least for the most part.

 

And Red, reaching in the hopes you get lucky and bag a scum is fine, and since I haven't played with you before, I can only assume you're telling the truth in that's what you always do. However, it can also easily be a scummy move, do you not see that? It goes into the whole metagame thing, if you set a precedent in always playing a certain way, it helps clear you a bit when you play that way even as scum. If your play was drastically different as town and mafia, you'd get sniffed out as scum every time.

 

oh i know how the game is played Desp, i get that you can't meta me on my actions and i don't expect you to take my word for it. not that meta will help you much in this game imo.

In other words, you're not off the hook for reaching yet, and since you've presented yourself so far as an okay candidate for a lynch, I see no reason we should vote no lynch at this point. I feel no lynch votes should be saved for when there is no good candidate for a lynch.

 

again, comming from your PoV i can see this.

 

Desp, your argument in this post is valid, even though your mistaking a vote for no lynch and arguing the merits with actually pushing for the No Lynch vote. i can go either way with your arguements as far as town or anti-town, so i'm reserving my judgement on you now.

[Barmacral]

Barm why is advocating a No Lynch any worse than a Joke Vote on Day 1? votes are suposed to promote reactions correct? so how is this any more anti-town then joke voting and letting the game run close to the deadline before a mass voter pile up on the one with the most votes.

 

again, i can see where you would say this if the deadlien was close and we had a viable candidate; but this isn't the case. so i question your motives for painting the No Lynch as soemthign bad in this situation.

 

I never said its better or worse than a joke vote. A joke vote is something that lasts the first page or two until things get serious, and should never ever last til the end of the day, or be a reason for a lynch.

 

Your no lynch vote is a serious vote, not a joke vote, and as a serious vote it is a hindrance to the town, as it provides less information than a lynch vote does. The idea is to get as much information into the thread as possible, which, unless under exceptional circumstances (like Kivam's red scare or possibly a Suras game, both of which are very unconventional) you will almost every single time get more information with a lynch vote, therefore making it more beneficial to the town.

 

Things you lack with a no-lynch:

 

1. Pressure on players. Easier to hide when nobody is facing any pressure because nobody has to worry about dying.

2. Mod information. Seeing where everyone has placed their vote is much easier to analyse when you have an alignment.

[LilyElizabeth]

We're still waiting on Verbal and Amegakure to check in. Is anyone able to poke them off of DM? Does anyone know of anyone who might want to be a backup?

[hazelkrs1]

okay, i have my response for that typed up, i'll save it until the threads unlocked ^^ until then i think that we need to move past the merits of a no-lynch and "anti-town/pro-town" moves becuase it's doing nothing to help us catch scum.

 

voting for me because of the "No Lynch is fine" but the discussion steming from it is distracting imo

 

You're right in that the whole pro-town/anti-town thing is distracting us. I didn't vote for you on just the no lynch thing, I just think you're exhibiting scummy behavior altogether

 

Desp, your argument in this post is valid, even though your mistaking a vote for no lynch and arguing the merits with actually pushing for the No Lynch vote. i can go either way with your arguements as far as town or anti-town, so i'm reserving my judgement on you now.

 

You sure are wavering a good bit pretty early on. First you ping slightly in being somewhat defensive in regards to my first post against you. Then you say you're more suspicious of me after my second one. Now you're back to being neutral on me? First you point FOS's without voting on anyone, then you backpedal from trying to paint me as scum. Hrmmmm...

[Hybrid]

happy Hy?

 

What have you done to Red??

 

[Verbal32]

I iz here.

 

 

Vote: Verbal because he sucks at mafia and is full of H8.

 

h8u

 

 

This one is for Verbal, becaue I'm not going "no lynch" today, so he needs a reason to vote me;

 

see above

 

 

 

Vote: Barmacral

 

Finally, some sense.

 

 

 

Checking in.

 

Vote Verbal

 

This game is too easy

 

And like that....it's gone.

 

 

 

Before y'all ask, yes, no lynches are allowed.

 

really?? VOTE: NO LYNCH

 

O_o

 

Vote: Red

 

 

 

whats wrong with a No Lynch Sakaea?? you info off a No Lynch as well, more so than a random or inactive lynch.

 

Barm addressed this, but it bears repeating: if people pile on a No Lynch vote, so what? You can't really get much info from that. Lanth will pretend you can and that anybody who can't is just not good at it, but he's just blowing smoke. You get info from the coroner report and how people reacted to the lynch trains. That's why you need:

 

1. multiple trains

2. an actual player-controlled lynch of another player

 

And that's that.

[hazelkrs1]

Speak some truth Verby.

 

Have I mentioned how much I like your avatar?

 

/sucking up

[Barmacral]

whats wrong with a No Lynch Sakaea?? you info off a No Lynch as well, more so than a random or inactive lynch.

 

Barm addressed this, but it bears repeating: if people pile on a No Lynch vote, so what? You can't really get much info from that. Lanth will pretend you can and that anybody who can't is just not good at it, but he's just blowing smoke. You get info from the coroner report and how people reacted to the lynch trains. That's why you need:

 

1. multiple trains

2. an actual player-controlled lynch of another player

 

And that's that.

 

This.

[Lanthirrhos]

I dunno, the arguments we were having in that mafia game seem to have deflated everyone somewhat. But I guess I'll respond to a couple points, quickly if I can:

 

About the "blatant bandwagoning", by saying that's what he was doing, he was poking fun at the concept, a little tongue in cheek if you will. Then he backed up his vote with an argument, which took it out of the blatant bandwagoning territory.

 

Once again, I don't think Red voting no lynch early is on is immediately a policy-lynch type offense, but were she to have her vote stay there and convince others to go no lynch themselves, then she is potentially lifting scum off the hook. And yes, her moves have inadvertently created pressure on someone-herself.

 

True, she has gotten discussions started and whatnot, but this doesn't necessarily mean she's not scum. Mafia hiding behind "pro-town" moves, especially early on, are showing a great way to try and get past everyone's initial scumdar.

 

And Red, reaching in the hopes you get lucky and bag a scum is fine, and since I haven't played with you before, I can only assume you're telling the truth in that's what you always do. However, it can also easily be a scummy move, do you not see that? It goes into the whole metagame thing, if you set a precedent in always playing a certain way, it helps clear you a bit when you play that way even as scum. If your play was drastically different as town and mafia, you'd get sniffed out as scum every time.

 

In other words, you're not off the hook for reaching yet, and since you've presented yourself so far as an okay candidate for a lynch, I see no reason we should vote no lynch at this point. I feel no lynch votes should be saved for when there is no good candidate for a lynch.

 

Inadvertently comment: I doubt it was inadvertent. Sorry, Red's been playing with a while. Not only does she like scummy play, but she is using a tactic that I myself use as town or mafia. The exact same. scummy play, and a no lynch debate drawing attention to myself. NOT inadvertent. Guaranteed.

 

Early Scum move: Sorry, this one applies to every aspect of the game, from every person, at all times. Not the best of arguments.

 

Doesn't mean she's not scum: No, no it doesn't. But you can lynch an active, pot mixing player on day one who provides information in their conflict with other players now and in the future--or you could lynch them and leave the relatively inactive players who wont cause a ruckus for information. Sorry, but I'll take an active player to keep alive on day one any day, even if they turn out ultimately to be mafia--worth it for the activity and connections to make in the future days.

 

No reason: Why so serious? She hasn't even PUSHED the no lynch vote, she merely voted and challenged everyone to do something about it.

 

You hould note that "great town plays" can be ANTI-TOWN (no quotes this time) and HELP the town. The decision is almost alway the town's. And it can certainly do both at once. It's never an either or. It's ALWAYS on the shoulders of the town to make or break an individual's play. They usually break it because they'd rather eradicate unorthodoxy and competence than trust--which isn't always a bad thing.

 

When I say anti-town, I'm not referring to moves that might be perceived as anti-town, I'm talking about moves which LITERALLY hurt town. If you make such a move, you're exhibiting anti-town characteristics.

 

If on the other hand, you make a move that many might believe to be anti-town, but it ends up helping the town, then it becomes a pro-town move. If that move ends up helping the town immensely, then it becomes a "great town plays".

 

"Great town plays" are never anti-town in the end. I mean look at what you're doing, you're substituting "great" for "pro", which just means positive, or beneficial (same thing great can mean), so it's like you're trying to make the argument that pro-town moves can be anti-town moves. They can't, it's one or the other. And we're not talking about perceptions here, we're talking about results. If your moves help town win, they were pro-town. If they help scum win, they were anti-town. I would say there's no gray area, but there is, there are moves that are more "neutral-town" in that they can hurt or help both sides.

 

When I say: Yes, but when I said "anti-town" initially, it was in quotes denoting that I disagreed with the title. You eemed to miss that at the time. Likely my fault, but you based arguments off of the incorrect reading. Hense my further assertations were to make my point. great town plays often hurt the town. Sorry, there's no way around that. Mafia isn't black and white and you can't assert that it is. Sometimes they are more successful than harmful--others not so much. I've een great town plays fail to. It's success or failure doesn't affect the play, because the play was initiated by a player or team, and the ultimate outcome of the play rests with the REST of the game. The play often drives a wedge between the town over percieved "anti-town" actions. Even if immediately succesful, the mafia can STILL turn that great play around and pass it off as though thoe who did it are running a gambit. Just because a play works for the town, doesn't make it ultimately good--vice versa.

 

(I once had a GREAT solo play-through in one of Verb's games--I didn't win. It was still great.)

 

And yes, I'm harping on this because black and white assertions are mafia tells or "anti-town" actions designed for info. (I'll err on the side of the former for now. Allow me to be suspicious.) It portreys confidence and leadership--therefore many players will generally follow becaue it seems logical and simple to achieve. Easy way to try and get support to lead around the town.

 

I never said its better or worse than a joke vote. A joke vote is something that lasts the first page or two until things get serious, and should never ever last til the end of the day, or be a reason for a lynch.

 

Your no lynch vote is a serious vote, not a joke vote, and as a serious vote it is a hindrance to the town, as it provides less information than a lynch vote does. The idea is to get as much information into the thread as possible, which, unless under exceptional circumstances (like Kivam's red scare or possibly a Suras game, both of which are very unconventional) you will almost every single time get more information with a lynch vote, therefore making it more beneficial to the town.

 

Things you lack with a no-lynch:

 

1. Pressure on players. Easier to hide when nobody is facing any pressure because nobody has to worry about dying.

2. Mod information. Seeing where everyone has placed their vote is much easier to analyse when you have an alignment.

 

Joke vote: Sorry, this rule comes from where? I hope you recognize that it comes from your own personal beliefs and not reality. You just accused anyone who hasn't voted Red of wanting their Voted players dead. The ONLY part I can agree with on principle is the part about it not lasting all day. Joke votes are rarely as jokish as people make them out to be, even if they're far down the list of prefered lynch material.

 

serious vote: Lol. Give the logical reasoning behind this in terms that exist in my world please. Not based on some assertation that her vote has lasted more than a day. It still seems to be doing its work, why change it yet?

 

Pressure: Sorry, I'm seeing pressure in the game. I'm giving most of it, shame no one will stand up to it. It's like you're hiding something. Besides, in a normal ideal lynch, you pressure people (multiple for the most info, multiple lynch trains even), then lynch someone. In a no lynch, you pressure peoplemultiple for the most info, multiple lynch trains even), then no lynch. Fail argument bro. There's only ever as much pressure as you make of it--right now, you aren't making much at all.

 

Mod info: EASIER. I said that didn't I? I believe my words were "spoon fed". Where votes are ultimately placed is of little consequence. Mafia will vote for their own just to not appear to be mafia. Where the actual useful information comes from are the actions and arguments of the players, not the votes themselves, it's the reasoning behind the votes, which is something that the mod can NEVER give you with a lynch.

 

happy Hy?

 

What have you done to Red??

 

 

Puppetmaster.

[LilyElizabeth]

Vote count:

 

Key (1) – Ishy

Verbal (1) – Lanth

Min (1) – Ed

Ishy (1) – Key

Barm (2) – Nolder, Tina

Vambram (1) – Leelou

Karas (1) – Kat

No lynch (1) – Red

Kat (1) – Karas

Red (5) – Barm, Hybrid, Des, Min, Verbal

 

Not voting – Vam, Hoof, Ama, Sakaea, Amega

 

With 20 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No deadline for day one yet.

[Barmacral]

Joke vote: Sorry, this rule comes from where? I hope you recognize that it comes from your own personal beliefs and not reality. You just accused anyone who hasn't voted Red of wanting their Voted players dead. The ONLY part I can agree with on principle is the part about it not lasting all day. Joke votes are rarely as jokish as people make them out to be, even if they're far down the list of prefered lynch material.

 

Not a rule, common sense. Which isn't necessarily as common as one would expect. I also did not make any such accusation, you're trying to put your own words in my mouth here.

 

serious vote: Lol. Give the logical reasoning behind this in terms that exist in my world please. Not based on some assertation that her vote has lasted more than a day. It still seems to be doing its work, why change it yet?

 

Whats not to get? The vote wasn't made on a basis of humour, but to actually progress the game. Therefore: Serious.

 

Pressure: Sorry, I'm seeing pressure in the game. I'm giving most of it, shame no one will stand up to it. It's like you're hiding something. Besides, in a normal ideal lynch, you pressure people (multiple for the most info, multiple lynch trains even), then lynch someone. In a no lynch, you pressure peoplemultiple for the most info, multiple lynch trains even), then no lynch. Fail argument bro. There's only ever as much pressure as you make of it--right now, you aren't making much at all.

 

What a stupid argument. A no-lynch doesn't apply pressure to anyone except those who propose it, in this case Red. In fact, no competing trains have popped up because a large number of people are voting Red due to her no lynch vote. Your hypothetical scenario (not what is playing out right now btw) of pressuring multiple people then voting for a no lynch might be viable if enough confirmed information came to light. Except that the only way to confirm the information we have is to lynch somebody. Got yourself into a catch 22 there bub.

[Nolder]

No Lynch is a bad idea simply because lynching is the only power we can be sure we have as town and it's a limited resource

let's not waste it

[ed2funy]

Did a quick skim because I have a short lunch today.

 

Checking in! VOTE RED for voting for a no lynch.

 

This is my first Lily game, really looking forward to this^_^

 

Don't make it a challenge. I'll do it too. And you'll love it or else.

 

Honestly, it felt like that is the reason Red voted for No Lynch. She mentioned she's done it before, but I've not seen it, so kinda meta there.

While she may not be actively advocating it, she voted for it, and it don't sit well. I'm against a No Lynch on Day 1, because I think it provides little info, as well.

Red stop posting faster than me and saying what I said first, but before me.

 

She doesn't go back to correct typos. >.>

Eddie I would have OMGUS voted you, but I think I am on to real scum hunting, which is what this game is all about. Oh, and Red before you do one of your dramatic long full of ##it posts about my post, the only time I have seen no lynches pushed were by mafia.

 

Min be scum. She no vote me.

[hazelkrs1]

Lanth, I'm going to assume you've been mafia starved for some time, and are just trying to ween as much amusement out of this game as possible right now, cause that is the only explanation I can say that doesn't violate the 14th rule.

 

It's only going to serve as a greater distraction the more you try to convince us pro-town moves can be anti-town. I'm not saying mafia is black and white, but making the distinction of a move either being beneficial to (pro), or harmful to (anti) town is exactly that. Of course, the degrees to which a move can be helpful towards town can be discussed, but if you say a move is pro-town then it's because the move helps town, end of story. An attempt to make a pro-town move that ends up hurting the town is an anti-town move, period. The intentions of the person who makes the move have nothing to do with it, it's all about results. You can still have pro-town moves in which scum end up winning, it just means the scum were more clever and their moves countered the pro-town moves. Once again, perceptions also don't have anything to do with it; everyone might believe a move is anti-town, but if it ends up helping town, it was a pro-town move the whole time.

 

Something else to bring up, while we're on the subject of anti-town moves: if you're right in that you've played with Red enough to know she was being deliberate in trying to draw attention on herself, you drawing attention to that fact could potentially hurt town. If it's her intention to draw suspicion on herself in some elaborate pro-town scheme, you prob shouldve left it as a WIFOM for anyone who was thinking the same thing as you.

 

Either way let's please drop the whole protown/antitown thing.

[John E. Kelley]

I'll have none of the No Lynch vote. Just not for me. I also won't call Red out on it because:

1) Never seen it used before, so I'm probably not the best person to speak out on it's uses / disadvantages.

2) She already has 5 votes and I won't be part of a landslide I'm not qualified to judge.

 

I will however Unvote, since it's obvious we're going to move the game along and the time for joke votes is over.

[Hybrid]

If you're not voting for someone on Day 1, you're not moving the game along.

 

In other news, I think Verbal and Blackhoof are on a team.

[Amadine]

While i don't agree with a no lynch on day one, i see what Red did there.

 

Let's go for pressure on the next candidate.

 

VOTE BARM

[Blackhoof]

wow, lots of activity O.O

[Blackhoof]

will be back later to comment when i have time

[Verbal32]

Speak some truth Verby.

 

Have I mentioned how much I like your avatar?

 

/sucking up

 

No, but please continue anyway.

 

/it's working

 

 

 

 

If you're not voting for someone on Day 1, you're not moving the game along.

 

In other news, I think Verbal and Blackhoof are on a team.

 

Dammit, did I send the QT to you as well? Foiled yet again.

[keyholder21]

Wow, lots of talking about the no lynch vote. Even if it was a serious vote people, I have complete faith that it wouldn't have had enough votes to be our "lynch" for the day, so what's the big deal? In fact, so far in this game it's actually served to start things rolling.

 

 

 

Ed - I've seen her do it before. Twice, I believe. Once she was mafia, once she wasn't, sooo I don't think that tells us anything.

[Red2111]

WoT inbound..

 

I never said its better or worse than a joke vote. A joke vote is something that lasts the first page or two until things get serious, and should never ever last til the end of the day, or be a reason for a lynch.

 

Your no lynch vote is a serious vote, not a joke vote, and as a serious vote it is a hindrance to the town, as it provides less information than a lynch vote does. The idea is to get as much information into the thread as possible, which, unless under exceptional circumstances (like Kivam's red scare or possibly a Suras game, both of which are very unconventional) you will almost every single time get more information with a lynch vote, therefore making it more beneficial to the town.

 

Things you lack with a no-lynch:

 

1. Pressure on players. Easier to hide when nobody is facing any pressure because nobody has to worry about dying.

2. Mod information. Seeing where everyone has placed their vote is much easier to analyse when you have an alignment.

 

but heres the thing, how do you know that the No Lynch vote from me was serious and not me just beating the grass with a large inflamitory stick that i knew would get the ball rolling?? i did this because i'm tired of the typical Day 1 "joke votes" whih then turns into a mass exit to pile onto the person with the most votes because no one is taking Day 1 seriously.

 

that and to stir the pot cause i wanted to see reactions. of which i got plenty of.

 

will i pull my vote off the no lynch right now, no; i don't fold to pressure and i wont be bullied off it by votes. i don't like slinging my vote around needlessly unless i see something worth voting. did i ever expect people to be cool with a no lynch, if i did i wouldn't have beat the grass with this stick.

 

 

so why dont you guys stop focusing on where my vote is and realize the fact that i'm not pushing for the No lynch and put our combined effort into sniffing out the scumsters that are likely on my vote. i'm betting atleast one couldn't help themselves but to pile on what looked like such an easy "legit" lynch.

 

 

 

 

Vote count:

 

Key (1) – Ishy

Verbal (1) – Lanth

Min (1) – Ed

Ishy (1) – Key

Barm (2) – Nolder, Tina

Vambram (1) – Leelou

Karas (1) – Kat

No lynch (1) – Red

Kat (1) – Karas

Red (5) – Barm, Hybrid, Des, Red, Verbal

 

Not voting – Vam, Hoof, Ama, Sakaea, Amega

 

With 20 alive it takes 11 to lynch. No deadline for day one yet.

 

 

why iz i voting for myself and No Lynch