Rand at Maradon

[damandred]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

 

Rand had time to prepare at Maradon?

 

Time to prepare? I don't know how exactly you are taking that word but he did pick a open space to fight, far away from shadowspawn and humans. That is why he didn't just start whacking them from city wall.

 

 

Okay your right he chose his ground. But was the shadowspawn really that close to the manner house, Ituralde remarks about how precise he was. I know LTT was still crazy at the time of the manner attack but he still had the prescents of mind not to use Blossoms of Fire when the trollocs got to close. He never hit one tower at maradon.

 

Er..My point is that there is no LTT (atleast not now). LTT cannot take over. Rand was just going crazy. So I don't understand what you are trying to prove? In both instances, it was just Rand, one saner and another going crazy. So if anyone was performing poorly, it was Rand. "LTT taking over" has no meaning because LTT died 3000 years ago. Ghost of LTT is not hanging around. Rand has LTT's memories. He doesn't have LTT. Even in Maradon, he used the exact same memories. Memories cannot boost your endurance or your raw power.

 

 

Rand is LTT reborn, the maddness effected Rand in a way that Rand could hear LTT's voice in his head. Or tapped into the part of rand that could remember being LTT. But maddness or not they were TRUE memories. So when LTT(or mad Rand whatever) got control of saidin at the manner house that part of rand insane or no had all the knowllage of desructive weaves from the AoL. How else do you explain the AoL weaves like deathgates and Blossoms of Fire?

[Kahsm]

The fact that Rand knew he could do it seems like unequivocal proof to me. He strode out there knowing what was there, and that he could kill them all. I mean if he had some powers that were unprecedented, are you suggesting the knowledge of how to use it was also imparted on him? If he has some extra strength no one has ever had, does he instantly know his new limits? Every character has had to learn the limits of their talents and abilities, except in this case? It suggests that the LTT knowledge he has knew exactly what he could do.

 

That being said, option 2 is still viable, since at VoG he got to see all his lives, and like the Rhuidean women's ter'angreal, the knowledge could stay subconsciously, if his soul has some particular prowess that previous incarnations managed to master, but I don't think so. Again, everything described at Maradon seems to fit the channeling system as we know it. The only "stumbling" block, if it could even be called that, is SOME people's impressions of how the numbers work out. But for all we know they are just exaggerations or whatever random number-based words the authors decided to use that day to mean "he killed a lot".

[WhiskyJack]

If Rand at Maradon was something LTT could of done in the AoL, why when he took control of Saidin when the shadowspawn attacked Algarin's manner didn't he do the same. He wove deathgates and blossoms of fire but didn't show the awesomeness of Maradon.

 

It's not the same situation for one. He was channelling from a window, and there were saldean soldiers out there and the ogier, so he couldn't just start destroying everything with impunity, whereas at Maradon, they then enemy was clearly layed out in front of him with no one in the way. Also it was an insane LTT in control of saidin, with Rand definitely not happy about it. Not the best combination for effictiveness.

 

Also it was daytime at Maradon I believe, whereas it was night time in Tear.

 

 

Surley a 100,000+ army is a big enough target to avoid your own men. Also while LTT was insane and Rand was unhappy about him having control, the fact is he WAS in control and he "wove death as fast as he could" plus the fact that a fade almost got to him and even with 20+ other channellers Logain called it a "close run thing". My point being after what we saw at Maradon even with the obsticles you point out it shouldn't of been close at all.

 

Maybe... but then it was a surprise attack. Rand wasn't prepared to face that, whereas at Maradon he had all the time he wanted. And LTT's condition probably made him use brute strength instead of weaving intellegently like Rand did at Maradon.

 

Rand had time to prepare at Maradon?

 

Time to prepare? I don't know how exactly you are taking that word but he did pick a open space to fight, far away from shadowspawn and humans. That is why he didn't just start whacking them from city wall.

 

 

Okay your right he chose his ground. But was the shadowspawn really that close to the manner house, Ituralde remarks about how precise he was. I know LTT was still crazy at the time of the manner attack but he still had the prescents of mind not to use Blossoms of Fire when the trollocs got to close. He never hit one tower at maradon.

 

Er..My point is that there is no LTT (atleast not now). LTT cannot take over. Rand was just going crazy. So I don't understand what you are trying to prove? In both instances, it was just Rand, one saner and another going crazy. So if anyone was performing poorly, it was Rand. "LTT taking over" has no meaning because LTT died 3000 years ago. Ghost of LTT is not hanging around. Rand has LTT's memories. He doesn't have LTT. Even in Maradon, he used the exact same memories. Memories cannot boost your endurance or your raw power.

 

 

Rand is LTT reborn, the maddness effected Rand in a way that Rand could hear LTT's voice in his head. Or tapped into the part of rand that could remember being LTT. But maddness or not they were TRUE memories. So when LTT(or mad Rand whatever) got control of saidin at the manner house that part of rand insane or no had all the knowllage of desructive weaves from the AoL. How else do you explain the AoL weaves like deathgates and Blossoms of Fire?

 

 

Still not sure what we are debating. Rand again used LTT's memories in Maradon and integration this time was far better. Both times Rand was channeling and both times Rand was using LTT's memories. Only difference is that Rand's efficacy has changed. But none of this reflects on how strong LTT was or how LTT would have performed in such situation unless Rand tells us so.

 

If you are trying to claim that in Tear, LTT, the person was channeling but in Maradon, Rand was...then such assertion is incorrect.

[damandred]

I don't think anyone has got my point yet. Maybe it is my own inability to express them. O well here it goes.

When LTT(let's not quibble) took control of saidin at the manner he was using the same memories of LTT to kill the shadowspawn as rand has now, whether those were of a crazy LTT or not is irrelevent he should of had the same know how and skill to kill trollocs as at Maradon. The idea that he was some how given those memories in VoG is nonsence he always had them in him it was just the maddness twisted them into the voice of a mad man, so when the "voice" took over no matter that he wanted to eat grass, howl at the moon or call himself Napoleon he could of (in theory) performed the same feats as at maradon. (If you believe opinion 1)

 

As we saw at maradon he could be very percise, so the point that he might of damaged the manner only holds so far, as in the middle of the shadowspawn army at maradon were watchtowers and he hit none. Not to mention at the manner he had 20+ extra channeller to help him contain the destruction.

 

Someone said up thread that at the manner the trolloc were only 5 feet away. Were did that come from? I cannot believe that at the start of the battle Rand and co let them get that close, maybe at the end. Even at Maradon it says there was a pile of trolloc directly before him.

 

This is only relevent if you believe Rand rand did not get extra powers on DM, which I believe he did. Could AoL LTT performed Maradon? I'm not convinced.

[Dreggs Morlock]

I agree with most of this, though number 3 I'm a little unclear on. Any of the chosen could have the same knowledge, and Ishy (if he chose to use OP at some point for some reason) could be just as strong and just as skilled.

 

The display of skill shown to us at Maradon was unique. We have never seen this level of skill in weaving the OP from any channeler before either directly or in History. I was trying to make a point as to why I picked Option #2 in the poll above. RJ has made it clear that Raw Power in the OP is not necessarily the deciding factor in a contest between channelers. We know that Ishy was at, or nearly at LTT's same Power Level in the OP, yet LTT was still the best. The display at Maradon shows us why. Rand/LTT was not only at the maximum power level (as far as we know) possible for a male channeler, he also had the finest control over that power as well.

 

I also think you cant discount the description of Rand seeing all of his past lives at VoG, if it didn't mean anything, it would not have been added to the description.

 

I will admit that it is possible that there was something else at play because of the "Light and Power" comments, however, there is nothing to indicate that the skill with which whatever Power Rand was channeling wasn't entirely his own.

I pretty much agree with AL here; there is not one Forsaken that doesn't consider Rand the "Champion of Light" though we as readers have never seen anything that makes him any more special than a very powerful male channeler...until now. I do not have anything but my "gut feeling" on this, but I expect that Rand and the Dark One need to meet, and the Power of Light will meet the Power of Darkness and things will be... decided.

 

If Rand is only one kick ass channeler then...well the Dark One might just have a HUGE edge.

[Elan Tedronai]

there won't be rand vs shaitan battle. This is not some dragonlance shit where raistlin was destroying one god after another.

[Suttree]

there won't be rand vs shaitan battle. This is not some dragonlance shit where raistlin was destroying one god after another.

 

LOL...just spilled my coffee. Thanks Elan.

[MasterAblar]

A great bit of wisdom in the book was when LTT said that the DO could not be defeated through brute strength. Furthermore Rand destroyed the CK in part because he believed he didn't need such power.

 

It would be sort of ridiculous for him to therefore be given a huge powerup, when he's stated precisely that that's not what will make the difference against the DO.

[Kahsm]

A great bit of wisdom in the book was when LTT said that the DO could not be defeated through brute strength. Furthermore Rand destroyed the CK in part because he believed he didn't need such power.

 

It would be sort of ridiculous for him to therefore be given a huge powerup, when he's stated precisely that that's not what will make the difference against the DO.

 

^^ This. The only reason to think he got a power-up is because you want him to have been powered up. Would be quite wasteful of the pattern to give the CoL something he apparently doesn't really need...

[OptimusPrime]

there won't be rand vs shaitan battle. This is not some dragonlance shit where raistlin was destroying one god after another.

 

See you're still thinking of a battle as one trying to kill another. I doubt Rand can kill the Dark One, and I doubt we will have Rand actually striking at Shaitan either, but that doesnt mean they cant battle.

[Suttree]

there won't be rand vs shaitan battle. This is not some dragonlance shit where raistlin was destroying one god after another.

 

See you're still thinking of a battle as one trying to kill another. I doubt Rand can kill the Dark One, and I doubt we will have Rand actually striking at Shaitan either, but that doesnt mean they cant battle.

 

Well yeah, but in that respects they've been battling for books. As RJ said, TG has started the light side just doesn't know it.

[OptimusPrime]

there won't be rand vs shaitan battle. This is not some dragonlance shit where raistlin was destroying one god after another.

 

See you're still thinking of a battle as one trying to kill another. I doubt Rand can kill the Dark One, and I doubt we will have Rand actually striking at Shaitan either, but that doesnt mean they cant battle.

 

Well yeah, but in that respects they've been battling for books. As RJ said, TG has started the light side just doesn't know it.

 

Well Ive said before that TG started in Eye of the World but that isnt the point. I was merely saying Elans view of a one on one battle might not be broad enough (not meant how it sounds) to let him think Rand can have a fight with the Dark One in a non-conventional way. For example I reckon the Dark One can possess True Power users, and that killing someone while they are possessed is how you punch the Dark One in the face. Its indirect, but its still a fight, and a non-Dragonlance stylee as well. I think Rands fight is to have the Dark One possess him but vie for control over the body, which will distract the Dark One while someone kills Rand. Thus Rand sacrifices himself, weakened the Dark One for another turning, and all that jazz

[water_seeker]

Rand = Garion + Sparhawk.

[MasterAblar]

In my opinion, the only thing that can't be explained by Rand's channelling abilities, or his Taveren effect, is the apparent protection against the taint on his mind. Although the apple episode might qualify as well.

[Lisa Campbell]

 

Well Ive said before that TG started in Eye of the World but that isnt the point. I was merely saying Elans view of a one on one battle might not be broad enough (not meant how it sounds) to let him think Rand can have a fight with the Dark One in a non-conventional way. For example I reckon the Dark One can possess True Power users, and that killing someone while they are possessed is how you punch the Dark One in the face. Its indirect, but its still a fight, and a non-Dragonlance stylee as well. I think Rands fight is to have the Dark One possess him but vie for control over the body, which will distract the Dark One while someone kills Rand. Thus Rand sacrifices himself, weakened the Dark One for another turning, and all that jazz

 

Ya, that would explain the "fight on another level" that Rand talks about in ToM. Rand's fight to trap the DOin his body until Moiraine/Alivia can kill him/help him die.

[Kahsm]

In my opinion, the only thing that can't be explained by Rand's channelling abilities, or his Taveren effect, is the apparent protection against the taint on his mind. Although the apple episode might qualify as well.

 

I suppose we don't know why he's "one with the land", in a technical/universe mechanics sense. Also odd none of the forsaken or flashbacks seem to mention LTTs one-with-the-land-ness.

[lordofsoup]

I understand why people think that Ishy could do the same as Rand, but the fact that Rand killed the Shadowspawn in the towers, and still managed to not even damage them is so amazing no person without some special abilities could do it.

[OptimusPrime]

In my opinion, the only thing that can't be explained by Rand's channelling abilities, or his Taveren effect, is the apparent protection against the taint on his mind.

 

I personally think that has to do with the link to Moridin.

[WhiskyJack]

In my opinion, the only thing that can't be explained by Rand's channelling abilities, or his Taveren effect, is the apparent protection against the taint on his mind. Although the apple episode might qualify as well.

 

I suppose we don't know why he's "one with the land", in a technical/universe mechanics sense. Also odd none of the forsaken or flashbacks seem to mention LTTs one-with-the-land-ness.

 

 

No but LTT was called Lord of the Morning. Really odd thing to say. I still have n clue about that title.

[MasterAblar]

I understand why people think that Ishy could do the same as Rand, but the fact that Rand killed the Shadowspawn in the towers, and still managed to not even damage them is so amazing no person without some special abilities could do it.

 

Yeah, that's in my opinion the most intersting part of his showing. Only Shadowspawn were hit.

 

 

In my opinion, the only thing that can't be explained by Rand's channelling abilities, or his Taveren effect, is the apparent protection against the taint on his mind.

 

I personally think that has to do with the link to Moridin.

 

It might, afterall the Forsaken have immunity to the taint, but he crossed balefires with Moridin long after he started channelling, and the immunity against the taint is obviously no longer necessary. Also the fact that it's "light" that's protecting his brain makes me doubt any connection to the DO.

[damandred]

In the EoTW the Creator calls Rand the Chosen One. Chosen by who? Maybe whoever it is gives Rand his protection.

[Kahsm]

I understand why people think that Ishy could do the same as Rand, but the fact that Rand killed the Shadowspawn in the towers, and still managed to not even damage them is so amazing no person without some special abilities could do it.

 

Uhh, Aes Sedai can make wards that only go off for shadowspawn, I don't see how targeted lightning is so special.

 

Even the WoT vid game had a seeker ter'angreal. Obviously not cannon, but shows it's not a new idea.

 

In the EoTW the Creator calls Rand the Chosen One. Chosen by who? Maybe whoever it is gives Rand his protection.

 

IMO it's a prerecorded message, left on the CoL's answering machine at the creation of the pattern, before the creator stepped away for good. The pattern choses based on the creator's ruleset and this message is played to the CoL at some important milestone.

 

I still like the idea that the taint protection was in tEotW, left by the AoLers so that the future could inoculate men who would be needed to repair the seals. But Rand used it all himself. Kept him from going nutz, but doesn't protect from the soul barrier degradation.

[FarShainMael]

In my opinion, the only thing that can't be explained by Rand's channelling abilities, or his Taveren effect, is the apparent protection against the taint on his mind. Although the apple episode might qualify as well.

 

I suppose we don't know why he's "one with the land", in a technical/universe mechanics sense. Also odd none of the forsaken or flashbacks seem to mention LTTs one-with-the-land-ness.

 

 

No but LTT was called Lord of the Morning. Really odd thing to say. I still have n clue about that title.

 

Morning brings light after darkness, maybe?

[Dreggs Morlock]

You know, the one thing we all can agree on is, we really don't know yet what, if any, new powers Rand has since stepping into the CoL's shoes full time. Will he NEED extra mojo to do "battle"? We don't know. Does he have powers other channelers do not have? We don't know, there are good arguments on both sides of that issue.

 

The one thing we DO know is, we don't know.

[Lisa Campbell]

I can't remember if it has been mentioned before because I come back to this thread randomly but I've had a thought about Rand's super power at Maradon...

 

In one of the books (maybe when Asmodean was training Rand?) I recall a POV that women gain their strength in sort of a parabolic fashion over about 5 years so it is relatively easy to predict what their full strength will be but that men, jump up levels of strength in a haphazard fashion. Could this be the reason for Rand's power boost since VoG?