Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

[Durinax]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

 

But it's not a matter of just knowing, it's a matter of willpower. Just the same way wise ones can hold people in TAR when they try to leave, or how they can change someone else's clothes and keep that person from changing them back, even though the target knows it's not real.

 

Mogh told Nyn she knew a "binding" that would make her be a horse whenever she entered TAR and that no one but 9 forsaken knew the binding to undo it. Could be a lie, though sounds plausible, and interesting she called it a binding.

 

But clearly there are ways to impose things onto TAR trained people even though they know it's not real, it seems self evident those methods would have an advantage over teleporting melee and tracking skills, and I don't see Perrin being even remotely close to Egwene when it comes to imposing will on other people or things.

no but imposing his own will upon himself, he is way better, afterall he 'made' himself blood keeping himself alive. Besides we see how egwene trying to hold perrin worked out (althouhg I will admit she wasnt pouring herself into it). And if perrin employs slayers fighting style egwene would stand 0 chance since she has no idea how to guess where people went (although I would like a quote saying otherwise).

[Kahsm]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

 

But it's not a matter of just knowing, it's a matter of willpower. Just the same way wise ones can hold people in TAR when they try to leave, or how they can change someone else's clothes and keep that person from changing them back, even though the target knows it's not real.

 

Mogh told Nyn she knew a "binding" that would make her be a horse whenever she entered TAR and that no one but 9 forsaken knew the binding to undo it. Could be a lie, though sounds plausible, and interesting she called it a binding.

 

But clearly there are ways to impose things onto TAR trained people even though they know it's not real, it seems self evident those methods would have an advantage over teleporting melee and tracking skills, and I don't see Perrin being even remotely close to Egwene when it comes to imposing will on other people or things.

no but imposing his own will upon himself, he is way better, afterall he 'made' himself blood keeping himself alive. Besides we see how egwene trying to hold perrin worked out (althouhg I will admit she wasnt pouring herself into it). And if perrin employs slayers fighting style egwene would stand 0 chance since she has no idea how to guess where people went (although I would like a quote saying otherwise).

 

We don't know she actually needs to know where he is to just break his mind. And again, the wise ones seem to have no issue finding people. Egwene finds Nyn snooping around in the white tower after one of their meetings, so she may have learned it at some point.

 

Also, channeling is not as useless in TAR as you seem to think. He may shrug off direct attacks, but she could still set wards to notify her of where he is when he pops back into "range". Hell, she could compel him to obey. Can't shrug off what he can't see, and that would even persist outside TAR.

 

And "wasn't pouring herself into it" is a bit of an understatement. She thought he wandered in accidentally and was in danger. Brandon said she was trying to keep him out of the way and safe, that is a totally different mindset than domination.

[Xcorpyo001]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

 

But it's not a matter of just knowing, it's a matter of willpower. Just the same way wise ones can hold people in TAR when they try to leave, or how they can change someone else's clothes and keep that person from changing them back, even though the target knows it's not real.

 

Mogh told Nyn she knew a "binding" that would make her be a horse whenever she entered TAR and that no one but 9 forsaken knew the binding to undo it. Could be a lie, though sounds plausible, and interesting she called it a binding.

 

But clearly there are ways to impose things onto TAR trained people even though they know it's not real, it seems self evident those methods would have an advantage over teleporting melee and tracking skills, and I don't see Perrin being even remotely close to Egwene when it comes to imposing will on other people or things.

no but imposing his own will upon himself, he is way better, afterall he 'made' himself blood keeping himself alive. Besides we see how egwene trying to hold perrin worked out (althouhg I will admit she wasnt pouring herself into it). And if perrin employs slayers fighting style egwene would stand 0 chance since she has no idea how to guess where people went (although I would like a quote saying otherwise).

 

We don't know she actually needs to know where he is to just break his mind. And again, the wise ones seem to have no issue finding people. Egwene finds Nyn snooping around in the white tower after one of their meetings, so she may have learned it at some point.

 

Also, channeling is not as useless in TAR as you seem to think. He may shrug off direct attacks, but she could still set wards to notify her of where he is when he pops back into "range". Hell, she could compel him to obey. Can't shrug off what he can't see, and that would even persist outside TAR.

 

And "wasn't pouring herself into it" is a bit of an understatement. She thought he wandered in accidentally and was in danger. Brandon said she was trying to keep him out of the way and safe, that is a totally different mindset than domination.

 

 

She was fighting BA inside the tower, close to her. If she doesn't need to know for sure where they are, why doesn't she kill/break them directly, and has to fight every one in close proximity, and in plain sight?

 

She warded the place to know when the BA will strike...complete and utter failure. And they were reversed, because the BA were not supposed to see the wards, so they probably just willed themselves to avoid any notice.

 

No one can take Perrin by surprise. In the instant she'll try something against him, his six sense will kick in and he'll have time to defend/escape(reread the chapters with Slayer in TSR, waaaay back, and you'll see that he can sense any attack/danger targeted at him, even if he can't actually see it).

 

No, Brandon said she could reach/surpass his potential if she trains more. But now that she think so highly of herself, I don't see so much training in the future.

And about the 'keep him safe' part. She tried to tie him up in the middle of a hallway/garden, surrounded on all sides by BA killing anyone in sight. A BA sister found him seconds later. And Slayer...

 

 

Ohhh, and while you are at reading about Slayer, read the part in which he clearly states that even the Forsaken beg for his help in TaR, and the DO himself is using him for his jobs there(and in other places).

So Slayer>>>>Forsaken(Mesanna), at least in TaR.

[Suttree]

No, Brandon said she could reach/surpass his potential if she trains more. But now that she think so highly of herself, I don't see so much training in the future.

And about the 'keep him safe' part. She tried to tie him up in the middle of a hallway/garden, surrounded on all sides by BA killing anyone in sight. A BA sister found him seconds later. And Slayer...

 

If there is one thing about Eggy we have seen time and time again, it's that she is willing to work very hard to be to increase her various skills. There is nothing to indicate she will grow complacent just because she is good at something.

 

For the second part, BS said:

 

Q: Much has been made of Egwene’s thought to tie up Perrin in the midst of a battle that could have brought about his death if he had not been able to stop her. Such apparent negligence is shocking considering her knowledge of how quickly things can happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Can you Explain Egwene’s thought process? Did she intend to leave Perrin there while she finished the battle?

A: (not verbatim) Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She was acting as the Amyrlin and trying to make sure that he would be safe and out of the way of danger. She was not going to tie him up and leave him, she would have brought him somewhere safe away from the danger of the fight and left him there until it was over.

[Xcorpyo001]

No, Brandon said she could reach/surpass his potential if she trains more. But now that she think so highly of herself, I don't see so much training in the future.

And about the 'keep him safe' part. She tried to tie him up in the middle of a hallway/garden, surrounded on all sides by BA killing anyone in sight. A BA sister found him seconds later. And Slayer...

 

If there is one thing about Eggy we have seen time and time again, it's that she is willing to work very hard to be to increase her various skills. There is nothing to indicate she will grow complacent just because she is good at something.

 

For the second part, BS said:

 

Q: Much has been made of Egwene’s thought to tie up Perrin in the midst of a battle that could have brought about his death if he had not been able to stop her. Such apparent negligence is shocking considering her knowledge of how quickly things can happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Can you Explain Egwene’s thought process? Did she intend to leave Perrin there while she finished the battle?

A: (not verbatim) Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She was acting as the Amyrlin and trying to make sure that he would be safe and out of the way of danger. She was not going to tie him up and leave him, she would have brought him somewhere safe away from the danger of the fight and left him there until it was over.

 

 

Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She also thought that Mesanna&co will just trigger the wards and the trap the way she wanted, or that she'll not try to run if in danger, or that nobody will harm her in her room, etc. Thinking is not enough.

The truth of the matter is that she tied him up and lost focus, and they would have been dead, either by the BA or Slayer, if Perrin didn't acted as fast as he did. You may say that it's his fault in the first place, but without him there, her uber plan was destined to complete and utter failure. Mesanna was ready to bolt the moment she saw things got out of hand.

Brandon also said that with practice she will be better. But, at the moment, she is not.

[cookiecrisp]

I think they fight completely different in TAR.

 

For instance, I don't think Egwene would survive 3 seconds against Slayer even with another trap set up.

 

Slayer seems to kill faster than the speed of thought. His arrows can hit wolves, which are shown to have very expansive knowledge of TAR, and he has an unique ability to simply exit the dream (he's used it in combat after Perrin hit him with an arrow in TSR).

 

I think Egwene probably knows more about the theory of TAR. Egwene can lure opponents and assassinate key figures such as Forsaken through careful planning and mental control. In practice, Perrin has learned to do things like replenish his blood. We know that not all imagined things in TAR are possible, as Slayer stated that one can't simply will the health back into themselves. I think this is where Perrin has the instinctive mechanical advantage that will allow him to fight an opponent like Slayer.

 

Perrin is capable of combating Slayer, a unique existence that could possibly kill hundreds of dream walkers, and can possibly replicate this feat in the waking world against key figures. An instant kill would be required to stop Slayer, as he can simply go between TAR and the waking world, unlike other dream walkers. Despite his abject failure to actually defeat Slayer, he's fought him and even wounded him before.

 

Key abilities that are required in the wolf v. hunter combat that Slayer and Perrin partake in such as: "tracking" opponents, "regenerating" lost blood, "throwing" an opponent out of TAR do not seem to be in the WO teachings of TAR.

 

Without these techniques, Slayer can simply run around slaughtering hapless dream walkers. The tracking ability and the regeneration are most likely necessary in prolonged hunting games against the master hunter of TAR.

 

Perrin seems to lack the ability to go into the head to head contests of will that Egwene's iron will grants her an edge in. He's commented on how Slayer is simply so strong before, and appears to be utterly incapable of breaking his mind. Perhaps these contests are ineffective against opponents like Slayer, but I can't see Moggy or Cyndane being slaughtered by Perrin rushing them and smacking them back into the Age of Legends.

[Hopefire]

Perrin seems to lack the ability to go into the head to head contests of will that Egwene's iron will grants her an edge in. He's commented on how Slayer is simply so strong before, and appears to be utterly incapable of breaking his mind. Perhaps these contests are ineffective against opponents like Slayer, but I can't see Moggy or Cyndane being slaughtered by Perrin rushing them and smacking them back into the Age of Legends.

 

I don't think that we've seen evidence that Egwene's will is any stronger than Perrin's. Messana had been sexually assaulted/raped by Shaidar Haran a few weeks previous, and would have been suffering from PTSD and/or RTS. Common symptoms include disorganized thought content, paralyzing anxiety, confusion, and bewilderment. All enormous weaknesses in a fight in TAR. Jordan, having served in Vietnam, would certainly have been aware of this. Egwene just punched out Mohammad Ali has he is now (and really, Messana is more Leon Spinks than Mohammad Ali to begin with).

 

Egwene's strengths are in preparation, organization, building alliances, administration, deception, planning, intelligence gathering and use, etc. While she's no slouch in a fight, it's not her strength.

[Thor]

Why does everybody talk about egwene's strength in preparation and organization? Her skills in those areas are not even any better than Perrin's.

 

And if Perrin didn't stop and think for a few moments in TAR, Slayer would have completely destroyed him, both back in Emond's Field and in ToM.

[Kahsm]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

 

But it's not a matter of just knowing, it's a matter of willpower. Just the same way wise ones can hold people in TAR when they try to leave, or how they can change someone else's clothes and keep that person from changing them back, even though the target knows it's not real.

 

Mogh told Nyn she knew a "binding" that would make her be a horse whenever she entered TAR and that no one but 9 forsaken knew the binding to undo it. Could be a lie, though sounds plausible, and interesting she called it a binding.

 

But clearly there are ways to impose things onto TAR trained people even though they know it's not real, it seems self evident those methods would have an advantage over teleporting melee and tracking skills, and I don't see Perrin being even remotely close to Egwene when it comes to imposing will on other people or things.

no but imposing his own will upon himself, he is way better, afterall he 'made' himself blood keeping himself alive. Besides we see how egwene trying to hold perrin worked out (althouhg I will admit she wasnt pouring herself into it). And if perrin employs slayers fighting style egwene would stand 0 chance since she has no idea how to guess where people went (although I would like a quote saying otherwise).

 

We don't know she actually needs to know where he is to just break his mind. And again, the wise ones seem to have no issue finding people. Egwene finds Nyn snooping around in the white tower after one of their meetings, so she may have learned it at some point.

 

Also, channeling is not as useless in TAR as you seem to think. He may shrug off direct attacks, but she could still set wards to notify her of where he is when he pops back into "range". Hell, she could compel him to obey. Can't shrug off what he can't see, and that would even persist outside TAR.

 

And "wasn't pouring herself into it" is a bit of an understatement. She thought he wandered in accidentally and was in danger. Brandon said she was trying to keep him out of the way and safe, that is a totally different mindset than domination.

 

 

She was fighting BA inside the tower, close to her. If she doesn't need to know for sure where they are, why doesn't she kill/break them directly, and has to fight every one in close proximity, and in plain sight?

 

She warded the place to know when the BA will strike...complete and utter failure. And they were reversed, because the BA were not supposed to see the wards, so they probably just willed themselves to avoid any notice.

 

No one can take Perrin by surprise. In the instant she'll try something against him, his six sense will kick in and he'll have time to defend/escape(reread the chapters with Slayer in TSR, waaaay back, and you'll see that he can sense any attack/danger targeted at him, even if he can't actually see it).

 

No, Brandon said she could reach/surpass his potential if she trains more. But now that she think so highly of herself, I don't see so much training in the future.

And about the 'keep him safe' part. She tried to tie him up in the middle of a hallway/garden, surrounded on all sides by BA killing anyone in sight. A BA sister found him seconds later. And Slayer...

 

 

Ohhh, and while you are at reading about Slayer, read the part in which he clearly states that even the Forsaken beg for his help in TaR, and the DO himself is using him for his jobs there(and in other places).

So Slayer>>>>Forsaken(Mesanna), at least in TaR.

 

Right because Slayer/Lord Luc are such humble people and would never brag. Lanfear claims nearly the same but we find Mogh to be better in TAR than her.

 

No Brandon did not say that. I assume you just read that in another thread because that's an enormous word twisting by people who dislike Egwene. Here's what he actually said:

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

 

That's pretty clear. "Word of God", as some often say. Dreaming is Egwene's thing, and thinking that Perrin is better than Egwene because of that sequence is "unwise". You are being unwise, says Brandon.

 

Where is the mention of Egwene's "potential". People take the fact that she has gotten "rusty" to mean she needs to retrain or something like that. No, she shook the rust off when she realized she should stop channeling and just will what she wanted, and the result was the clear wtfpwnage that destroyed Mesaana's mind.

 

Yes, Perrin had a kickass fight sequence, but when someone can just go BAM, you are now a drooling idiot, that's going to be the end of the fight.

[Hopefire]

Why does everybody talk about egwene's strength in preparation and organization? Her skills in those areas are not even any better than Perrin's.

 

Let me provide some examples.

 

-When the Tower gets attacked by the Seanchan, Egwene is the one who organizes the Aes Sedai to rally and puts together a coherent strategy for beating them back.

 

-Egwene's response to the assassinations in the Tower is to plan an elaborate trap with herself as bait.

 

-The entire set of circumstances that led to where Egwene and Messana fought in TAR is due to Egwene planning an elaborate trap for Messana and the Black Ajah.

 

-Rand's entire plan for gathering the nations of the world together at the Fields of Merrilor is based on his faith in Egwene's organizational ability, and Egwene looks to be pulling it off, gathering the nations of the world at a months notice.

 

-Egwene was able to keep on top of ensuring that the rebel Aes Sedai were able to stay provisioned and their army fed and paid despite being cut off from their traditional sources of power and resources, in the middle of winter.

 

-Egwene has been able to negotiate a tentative agreement between the White Tower and some very closed, secretive channeling societies.

 

-You can see the deceptive aspects of her organizational abilities in every book since she became Amyrlin. About once a book or more, she snookers the Hall into giving her exactly what she wants, with them thinking that they have the upper hand. For example, when she gets them to give her the authority to work with the monarchs of the world without involving the Hall.

 

-Egwene's position while she was captured by the Tower Aes Sedai was largely built on soft power, forming personal friendships, earning respect, with the aim of a peaceful transition.

 

 

Etc, etc. Contrast that with her record in combat. Captured by the Seanchan in TGH, able to kill a Fade in TDR along with the other girls, she won out against a dozing Black Ajah in TAR in TDR, got splatted by Lanfear in FOH. After that, she stayed out of combat until she was captured by the Tower Aes Sedai. With the Tower Aes Sedai, she organized the defense against the Seanchan, and in typical Egwene fashion it was defense via superior organization and firepower. Later, she organized the fight against Messana and the Black Ajah, and in that confrontation her organization beforehand was significantly better than her actual ability on the battlefield. If Messana hadn't been significantly crippled before the fight even started, Egwene probably would have needed a rescue.

[Hopefire]

Yes, Perrin had a kickass fight sequence, but when someone can just go BAM, you are now a drooling idiot, that's going to be the end of the fight.

 

The ability to punch out a cripple does not make you a great fighter.

[Durinax]

Yes, Perrin had a kickass fight sequence, but when someone can just go BAM, you are now a drooling idiot, that's going to be the end of the fight.

I wonder if she will be able to psyche herself up by saying I am the amyrlin, and the Amyrlin IS GOD! after the next book. I have the feeling egwene is going to get a schooling about what AS means....

[Dastion]

Egwene is more knowledgeable, while Perrin is more instinctual. In TAR knowledge is both a strength and a burden.

 

For example, for Egwene controlling her clothing is an act of mental training. Meanwhile, Perrin's clothes never flicker. Yet, for the longest time Perrin moved around TAR in 'strides', while Egwene was hopping from place to place her first night. As Egwene learns, she knows what is possible, or trains herself to think in a certain way. Perrin just reacts, he has a vague idea that everything is potentially malleable.

 

Lets put it this way, I doubt Perrin could have beat Mesanna, but I also doubt Egwene could beat Slayer.

 

Arguably an ignornant but extremely willfull person (i.e. Cadsuane) would probably beat them both at once. Cadsuane would enter TAR, quickly discover that the rules don't apply unless you allow them to and rather than thinking about it more decide the only way to win is to just go with that thought. All it takes is one instance of everything going her way because she expects it to (Cadsuane usually manages this is the waking world) and she's confirmed her belief and has backed it by her impressive willpower.

[MasterAblar]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

 

But it's not a matter of just knowing, it's a matter of willpower. Just the same way wise ones can hold people in TAR when they try to leave, or how they can change someone else's clothes and keep that person from changing them back, even though the target knows it's not real.

 

Mogh told Nyn she knew a "binding" that would make her be a horse whenever she entered TAR and that no one but 9 forsaken knew the binding to undo it. Could be a lie, though sounds plausible, and interesting she called it a binding.

 

But clearly there are ways to impose things onto TAR trained people even though they know it's not real, it seems self evident those methods would have an advantage over teleporting melee and tracking skills, and I don't see Perrin being even remotely close to Egwene when it comes to imposing will on other people or things.

no but imposing his own will upon himself, he is way better, afterall he 'made' himself blood keeping himself alive. Besides we see how egwene trying to hold perrin worked out (althouhg I will admit she wasnt pouring herself into it). And if perrin employs slayers fighting style egwene would stand 0 chance since she has no idea how to guess where people went (although I would like a quote saying otherwise).

 

We don't know she actually needs to know where he is to just break his mind. And again, the wise ones seem to have no issue finding people. Egwene finds Nyn snooping around in the white tower after one of their meetings, so she may have learned it at some point.

 

Also, channeling is not as useless in TAR as you seem to think. He may shrug off direct attacks, but she could still set wards to notify her of where he is when he pops back into "range". Hell, she could compel him to obey. Can't shrug off what he can't see, and that would even persist outside TAR.

 

And "wasn't pouring herself into it" is a bit of an understatement. She thought he wandered in accidentally and was in danger. Brandon said she was trying to keep him out of the way and safe, that is a totally different mindset than domination.

 

 

She was fighting BA inside the tower, close to her. If she doesn't need to know for sure where they are, why doesn't she kill/break them directly, and has to fight every one in close proximity, and in plain sight?

 

She warded the place to know when the BA will strike...complete and utter failure. And they were reversed, because the BA were not supposed to see the wards, so they probably just willed themselves to avoid any notice.

 

No one can take Perrin by surprise. In the instant she'll try something against him, his six sense will kick in and he'll have time to defend/escape(reread the chapters with Slayer in TSR, waaaay back, and you'll see that he can sense any attack/danger targeted at him, even if he can't actually see it).

 

No, Brandon said she could reach/surpass his potential if she trains more. But now that she think so highly of herself, I don't see so much training in the future.

And about the 'keep him safe' part. She tried to tie him up in the middle of a hallway/garden, surrounded on all sides by BA killing anyone in sight. A BA sister found him seconds later. And Slayer...

 

 

Ohhh, and while you are at reading about Slayer, read the part in which he clearly states that even the Forsaken beg for his help in TaR, and the DO himself is using him for his jobs there(and in other places).

So Slayer>>>>Forsaken(Mesanna), at least in TaR.

 

Right because Slayer/Lord Luc are such humble people and would never brag. Lanfear claims nearly the same but we find Mogh to be better in TAR than her.

 

No Brandon did not say that. I assume you just read that in another thread because that's an enormous word twisting by people who dislike Egwene. Here's what he actually said:

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

 

That's pretty clear. "Word of God", as some often say. Dreaming is Egwene's thing, and thinking that Perrin is better than Egwene because of that sequence is "unwise". You are being unwise, says Brandon.

 

Where is the mention of Egwene's "potential". People take the fact that she has gotten "rusty" to mean she needs to retrain or something like that. No, she shook the rust off when she realized she should stop channeling and just will what she wanted, and the result was the clear wtfpwnage that destroyed Mesaana's mind.

 

Yes, Perrin had a kickass fight sequence, but when someone can just go BAM, you are now a drooling idiot, that's going to be the end of the fight.

 

So Dreaming is Egwene's thing. Well healing is suppposed to be Nyneave's thing, but that hasn't stopped others from being better. And Rand is the greatest channelers in the world but Androl is probably better with gateways, Nyneave and Flinn at healing, Neald with making power wrought weapons, Elayne at making terangeal. And while the Aes Sedai are probably the most complete channelers in the world (apart from Rand and the Forsaken), that doesn't stop the Ashaman from being for the most part better fighters. Egwene is the best at Dreaming (at least among the main characters. There is nothing to suggest that she is better than Lanfear and Moghedien, or Slayer for that better, and the Wise Ones.), that doesn't mean she's the best at everything in TAR. Perrin could very well be a better fighter. Afterall he's actually had training that was specifically about fighting in the dream, whereas Egwene's was much more general.

 

He may not impose on others in the Dream but that doesn't mean he doesn't impose on the environement. Also he's shown to have complete mastery of himself in the Dream. In fact that's pretty much what his story arc is about on a personal level. So where is the evidence that Egwene could just completely overwhelm Perrin in the Dream? Mesaana is not Perrin.

 

You said in a previous post that skill doesn't really matter once your will is strong enough. In that case Tuon, Rand, Cadsuane should all be great in the Dream. Except that they're not, because they've had no practice. But they're still some of the most strong willed people in the world. Without practice though they won't be much good in the Dream. Egwene herself already had a strong will when she first learned Dreaming, but that didn't immediatly make her a master at it. Egwene obviously has had practice, and training, and now has a fair bit of experience, but if she's not as skilled in fighting (whether it's because she lacks training for fighting in the Dream, or because she's just not as much of a natural at fighting), it's going to be a drawback no matter how strong willed she is. And she's going to have to get over her instincs to channel, which she hasn't yet. If she had, she would never have had any problem with the adam, but it took her a while to realise that it meant nothing.

[Himiko]

Arguably an ignornant but extremely willfull person (i.e. Cadsuane) would probably beat them both at once. Cadsuane would enter TAR, quickly discover that the rules don't apply unless you allow them to and rather than thinking about it more decide the only way to win is to just go with that thought. All it takes is one instance of everything going her way because she expects it to (Cadsuane usually manages this is the waking world) and she's confirmed her belief and has backed it by her impressive willpower.

 

... I would love to see that, actually XD Cadsuane is a bit of a force of nature, her in TAR could be awesome. But I wonder if she would fall prey to the same thinking that Egwene did, until Perrin corrected her- that channeling can harm you in the dreamworld. Hmmm...

[randsc]

Arguably an ignornant but extremely willfull person (i.e. Cadsuane) would probably beat them both at once. Cadsuane would enter TAR, quickly discover that the rules don't apply unless you allow them to and rather than thinking about it more decide the only way to win is to just go with that thought. All it takes is one instance of everything going her way because she expects it to (Cadsuane usually manages this is the waking world) and she's confirmed her belief and has backed it by her impressive willpower.

 

... I would love to see that, actually XD Cadsuane is a bit of a force of nature, her in TAR could be awesome. But I wonder if she would fall prey to the same thinking that Egwene did, until Perrin corrected her- that channeling can harm you in the dreamworld. Hmmm...

 

Setelle Anan would also be interesting.

[Xcorpyo001]

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

I don't think we should take this as law.

-I'm pretty sure?!? hmmm

 

-he does not see specific prophecies

The guy should read the first books again.

He can enter TaR at will, and he had prophetic dreams(when he looks at the skies and he sees a dark window.)

I think he saw a blind Rand, a tied up Mat and a bunch of women(Elayne and Nyn included) kneeling to Egwene back in TSR...those seem like specific prophecies to me. And that wasn't the only time it happened. And they all came true.

Or was he talking about Rand in that part?

 

-I'll look into it. Not very sure is he?

 

-I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing

 

This is the thing. 'I rebel against it'. So maybe in the notes from RJ, he had some ideas about Perrin being bad-ass in the Dream World, but he 'rebels against it' because he wants it to be Egwene's thing.

 

I think RJ wanted them to be at least equals in TaR, but BS changed some things and seems to be in the "Egwene must be awesome" bandwagon. She can have TaR as well, if she wants it. He still has Faile and a new awesome hammer.

I hope she'll be the one to take the second Dreamspike, since TaR is her thing, right? Perrin can spend the time watching Faile dancing the sa'sara. I won't mind. And neither will he.

[Kahsm]

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

I don't think we should take this as law.

-I'm pretty sure?!? hmmm

 

-he does not see specific prophecies

The guy should read the first books again.

He can enter TaR at will, and he had prophetic dreams(when he looks at the skies and he sees a dark window.)

I think he saw a blind Rand, a tied up Mat and a bunch of women(Elayne and Nyn included) kneeling to Egwene back in TSR...those seem like specific prophecies to me. And that wasn't the only time it happened. And they all came true.

Or was he talking about Rand in that part?

 

-I'll look into it. Not very sure is he?

 

-I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing

 

This is the thing. 'I rebel against it'. So maybe in the notes from RJ, he had some ideas about Perrin being bad-ass in the Dream World, but he 'rebels against it' because he wants it to be Egwene's thing.

 

I think RJ wanted them to be at least equals in TaR, but BS changed some things and seems to be in the "Egwene must be awesome" bandwagon. She can have TaR as well, if she wants it. He still has Faile and a new awesome hammer.

I hope she'll be the one to take the second Dreamspike, since TaR is her thing, right? Perrin can spend the time watching Faile dancing the sa'sara. I won't mind. And neither will he.

 

While I cannot say for certain, it think the rebel against is in response to Terez' idea. he rebels against that idea because it's Egwene's thing. I don't think it's specifically in the notes at all or he'd have a concrete answer. At least not in a form such as "Perrin could take Egwene if they were to go at it." There'd just be notes of what they each do, and from that he wouldn't really be able to say for certain where each would stand on a scale.

 

That said, if the current author rebel's against it, what's it matter? it's still going to be cannon now even if you consider it retconned.

 

But no he's not certain, but add that to the other evidence... like Egwene blowing up one of the Chosen's mind, then you kinda get the drift that she's pretty freakin' awesome on a scale beyond TAR-ified melee.

[Xcorpyo001]

 

 

While I cannot say for certain, it think the rebel against is in response to Terez' idea. he rebels against that idea because it's Egwene's thing. I don't think it's specifically in the notes at all or he'd have a concrete answer. At least not in a form such as "Perrin could take Egwene if they were to go at it." There'd just be notes of what they each do, and from that he wouldn't really be able to say for certain where each would stand on a scale.

 

That said, if the current author rebel's against it, what's it matter? it's still going to be cannon now even if you consider it retconned.

 

But no he's not certain, but add that to the other evidence... like Egwene blowing up one of the Chosen's mind, then you kinda get the drift that she's pretty freakin' awesome on a scale beyond TAR-ified melee.

 

You are right. If he wants it to be canon, it will be. But those particular answers, like pretty sure, I'll look into it, I rebel against it. I think he still had some problems himself sorting all that out. And it's a little scary, since he was probably working on the last book during that interview?!?

[MasterAblar]

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

I don't think we should take this as law.

-I'm pretty sure?!? hmmm

 

-he does not see specific prophecies

The guy should read the first books again.

He can enter TaR at will, and he had prophetic dreams(when he looks at the skies and he sees a dark window.)

I think he saw a blind Rand, a tied up Mat and a bunch of women(Elayne and Nyn included) kneeling to Egwene back in TSR...those seem like specific prophecies to me. And that wasn't the only time it happened. And they all came true.

Or was he talking about Rand in that part?

 

-I'll look into it. Not very sure is he?

 

-I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing

 

This is the thing. 'I rebel against it'. So maybe in the notes from RJ, he had some ideas about Perrin being bad-ass in the Dream World, but he 'rebels against it' because he wants it to be Egwene's thing.

 

I think RJ wanted them to be at least equals in TaR, but BS changed some things and seems to be in the "Egwene must be awesome" bandwagon. She can have TaR as well, if she wants it. He still has Faile and a new awesome hammer.

I hope she'll be the one to take the second Dreamspike, since TaR is her thing, right? Perrin can spend the time watching Faile dancing the sa'sara. I won't mind. And neither will he.

 

While I cannot say for certain, it think the rebel against is in response to Terez' idea. he rebels against that idea because it's Egwene's thing. I don't think it's specifically in the notes at all or he'd have a concrete answer. At least not in a form such as "Perrin could take Egwene if they were to go at it." There'd just be notes of what they each do, and from that he wouldn't really be able to say for certain where each would stand on a scale.

 

That said, if the current author rebel's against it, what's it matter? it's still going to be cannon now even if you consider it retconned.

 

But no he's not certain, but add that to the other evidence... like Egwene blowing up one of the Chosen's mind, then you kinda get the drift that she's pretty freakin' awesome on a scale beyond TAR-ified melee.

 

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Dreaming is simply having prophetic dreams, as opposed to Dreamwalking which is the more common talent of being able to go into TAR. If that is correct then this has nothing to do with Egwene's ability in TAR.

[Xcorpyo001]

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

I don't think we should take this as law.

-I'm pretty sure?!? hmmm

 

-he does not see specific prophecies

The guy should read the first books again.

He can enter TaR at will, and he had prophetic dreams(when he looks at the skies and he sees a dark window.)

I think he saw a blind Rand, a tied up Mat and a bunch of women(Elayne and Nyn included) kneeling to Egwene back in TSR...those seem like specific prophecies to me. And that wasn't the only time it happened. And they all came true.

Or was he talking about Rand in that part?

 

-I'll look into it. Not very sure is he?

 

-I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing

 

This is the thing. 'I rebel against it'. So maybe in the notes from RJ, he had some ideas about Perrin being bad-ass in the Dream World, but he 'rebels against it' because he wants it to be Egwene's thing.

 

I think RJ wanted them to be at least equals in TaR, but BS changed some things and seems to be in the "Egwene must be awesome" bandwagon. She can have TaR as well, if she wants it. He still has Faile and a new awesome hammer.

I hope she'll be the one to take the second Dreamspike, since TaR is her thing, right? Perrin can spend the time watching Faile dancing the sa'sara. I won't mind. And neither will he.

 

While I cannot say for certain, it think the rebel against is in response to Terez' idea. he rebels against that idea because it's Egwene's thing. I don't think it's specifically in the notes at all or he'd have a concrete answer. At least not in a form such as "Perrin could take Egwene if they were to go at it." There'd just be notes of what they each do, and from that he wouldn't really be able to say for certain where each would stand on a scale.

 

That said, if the current author rebel's against it, what's it matter? it's still going to be cannon now even if you consider it retconned.

 

But no he's not certain, but add that to the other evidence... like Egwene blowing up one of the Chosen's mind, then you kinda get the drift that she's pretty freakin' awesome on a scale beyond TAR-ified melee.

 

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Dreaming is simply having prophetic dreams, as opposed to Dreamwalking which is the more common talent of being able to go into TAR. If that is correct then this has nothing to do with Egwene's ability in TAR.

 

 

Perrin and Egwene can do both things, so it doesn't change much. There were more answers by BS, but I chose those because they were a little vague.

[MasterAblar]

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

 

I don't think we should take this as law.

-I'm pretty sure?!? hmmm

 

-he does not see specific prophecies

The guy should read the first books again.

He can enter TaR at will, and he had prophetic dreams(when he looks at the skies and he sees a dark window.)

I think he saw a blind Rand, a tied up Mat and a bunch of women(Elayne and Nyn included) kneeling to Egwene back in TSR...those seem like specific prophecies to me. And that wasn't the only time it happened. And they all came true.

Or was he talking about Rand in that part?

 

-I'll look into it. Not very sure is he?

 

-I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing

 

This is the thing. 'I rebel against it'. So maybe in the notes from RJ, he had some ideas about Perrin being bad-ass in the Dream World, but he 'rebels against it' because he wants it to be Egwene's thing.

 

I think RJ wanted them to be at least equals in TaR, but BS changed some things and seems to be in the "Egwene must be awesome" bandwagon. She can have TaR as well, if she wants it. He still has Faile and a new awesome hammer.

I hope she'll be the one to take the second Dreamspike, since TaR is her thing, right? Perrin can spend the time watching Faile dancing the sa'sara. I won't mind. And neither will he.

 

While I cannot say for certain, it think the rebel against is in response to Terez' idea. he rebels against that idea because it's Egwene's thing. I don't think it's specifically in the notes at all or he'd have a concrete answer. At least not in a form such as "Perrin could take Egwene if they were to go at it." There'd just be notes of what they each do, and from that he wouldn't really be able to say for certain where each would stand on a scale.

 

That said, if the current author rebel's against it, what's it matter? it's still going to be cannon now even if you consider it retconned.

 

But no he's not certain, but add that to the other evidence... like Egwene blowing up one of the Chosen's mind, then you kinda get the drift that she's pretty freakin' awesome on a scale beyond TAR-ified melee.

 

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Dreaming is simply having prophetic dreams, as opposed to Dreamwalking which is the more common talent of being able to go into TAR. If that is correct then this has nothing to do with Egwene's ability in TAR.

 

 

Perrin and Egwene can do both things, so it doesn't change much. There were more answers by BS, but I chose those because they were a little vague.

 

Well, yes and no. While they are similar, Brandon says that what Perrin does is something different. Regardless, the point is that when Brandon says that Dreaming is Egwene's thing, he's talking about her prophetic dreams not her ability in TAR. Which means that that's not evidence of Egwene being better than Perrin.

[Rose]

I agree with Master Ablar.

 

That Brandon quote has nothing to do with who would win in a TAR fight. It's about whether Perrin is a Dreamer or not. I think he's not, as Brandon said: what he does is different. He doesn't go to sleep and have true Dreams (without entering TAR) like Egwene does. He enters TAR in his sleep and sees visions in the sky there. Not the same thing. But that doesn't mean he doesn't kick ass in TAR. It just means he's not a Dreamer.

 

Similarly, when Brandon says that Dreaming is Egwene's thing, it doesn't mean that she's the best in TAR. Several of the Forsaken were really good in TAR but unless I am mistaken, they were not Dreamers. Dreamwalking and Dreaming are two different things. One can be a master of TAR without ever having prophetic dreams. I seem to recall from one of the Forsaken's POVs that it was common practice to teach students to enter TAR (with rings similar to the ones Elayne made). Likely, most of those students were not Dreamers. But they could enter TAR and learn to control it quite well, or it wouldn't have been taught to them.

[Kahsm]

Ran: Are Dreaming and Dreamwalking essentially just different names for the same Talent, or are they separate Talents that often occur together? The illustrated guide seemed to confuse the issue somewhat.

 

RJ: No. They're very different. A Dreamwalker can enter dreams but a Dreamer only "understands" dreams, though Dreamwalkers are generally Dreamers too.

 

Being a wolfbrother is again different, even if the effect is essentially the same. A channeler with earth and a blacksmith can create the same object, but what they do to get there is quite different. And we don't really know where the limitations of each are since they have never been spelled out.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Everything we have seen says we are building toward a showdown between Perrin and Isam. But I expect that Perrin might get help along the way, as this story always seems to hinge on cooperation between the main characters in getting things done. The person most likely to be able to help Perrin IS Egwene, which makes for the interesting question posed here, that being: How would Egwene make out versus Isam? Would her different take on TAR give her an advantage, or would she fare worst than Perrin?

 

The Perrin/Egwene war has been exhausted... well, in my opinion, others may disagree. But TAR fascinates me, and the two power characters on the good side have two very different takes on how to bend it towards their will... will this make a difference?