Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

[Occams whiskey bottle]

Brigitte was yanked out of TAR and Gaiden was hanging out there before he was reborn, so spirits do hang out in that realm. They just hide of something.

[Sabio]

That' why I think only specific  spirts are there. 

[DemandredFO]

Like a poster said TAR would be packed if everyone went there. Egwene is not a hero of the horn

[Rand's Left Hand]

The Heroes of the Horn are in TAR waiting to be reborn with each turn of the wheel, and we know wolves can live on in TAR thanks to Hopper but generally if your bog-standard run of the mill person was to die that would generally be it for them except those who the DO has a "claim on". As Sabio and DemandredFO mentioned above, TAR would be absolutely heaving with spirits otherwise!

[Barid Bel Medar]

At the end of the series - assuming Egwene lived - Perrin was stronger. 

 

Tel'aran'Rhiod is more a home of wolves than humans. Wolves go there when they die, humans don't - excepting the HotH. 

 

It is more natural for wolves, and thus wolfbrothers and sisters. Perrin could accomplish more than Egwene ever could, not necessarily because he is smarter - Egwene was a quick learner and more had ingenuity - but for the simple fact that - because of his wolf nature, his can achieve much greater symbiosis and have a greater understanding of T'a'R. 

 

The fact that he has some kind of 'dual soul', part wolf part human, that allows him to jump from T'a'R to the real world in an instant is evidence that his wolf-powers give him greater ability in the Dream. For all we know it may be the first of many advantages. (Before anyone says the obvious: normal humans cannot learn this. It is an effect of having two  souls, or two parts of a soul. Slayer because he was literally two souls, Perrin because he had half wolf half human.)

 

That said, while Perrin would be more of a master of T'a'R overall, there would be areas where Egwene may indeed do better. I wouldn't say Perrin would be greater than her in EVERY aspect, just overall.  

[fionwe1987]

At the end of the series - assuming Egwene lived - Perrin was stronger. 

 

Tel'aran'Rhiod is more a home of wolves than humans. Wolves go there when they die, humans don't - excepting the HotH. 

 

It is more natural for wolves, and thus wolfbrothers and sisters. Perrin could accomplish more than Egwene ever could, not necessarily because he is smarter - Egwene was a quick learner and more had ingenuity - but for the simple fact that - because of his wolf nature, his can achieve much greater symbiosis and have a greater understanding of T'a'R. 

 

The fact that he has some kind of 'dual soul', part wolf part human, that allows him to jump from T'a'R to the real world in an instant is evidence that his wolf-powers give him greater ability in the Dream. For all we know it may be the first of many advantages. (Before anyone says the obvious: normal humans cannot learn this. It is an effect of having two  souls, or two parts of a soul. Slayer because he was literally two souls, Perrin because he had half wolf half human.)

 

That said, while Perrin would be more of a master of T'a'R overall, there would be areas where Egwene may indeed do better. I wouldn't say Perrin would be greater than her in EVERY aspect, just overall.  

I'm not sure about this. While Wolves are natural inhabitants of TAR, so are Dreamwalkers. It isn't like Egwene had to be trained to access TAR. She could do so naturally, and would have done so eventually without any help. 

 

Wolves may go there when they are dead, but humans visit by accident all the time, and leave behind their dreams and nightmares. And as we see from Birgette, just because you go into TAR on death doesn't mean that a Dreamwalker cannot easily best you. Neither wolves nor Heroes seem very good at manipulating TAR. They're fine in surviving it and being themselves in it, but humans, especially Dreamwalkers, are far more adept at manipulating it. 

 

Take this simple example: Perrin's toughest training is all about keeping his personal identity inside a nightmare and not giving into it. Those same nightmares are routinely dismissed to nothing by Wise Ones and Egwene. The why of it seems simple: Nightmares are human thoughts and fears superimposed on TAR. Humans are best at dealing with it.

 

Then there's another advantage Egwene has: she can fold a part of TAR into her own dream, creating a Dreamshard. Perrin just can't do that, and within Egwene's Dreamshard (should they ever have come to blows), he would be quite helpless.

 

Lastly, there is the OP. Frankly, the Brandon introduced concept that the OP totally doesn't matter in TAR always seemed weird to me. The OP is as much a part of the real world as anything else. While Perrin (and Bair) are better able to deny the reality of a weave in TAR, that doesn't mean it is effortless. Perrin can't wish away an arrow used by Slayer without effort. Same is the case with weaves used by a trained Dreamwalker. 

 

And that doesn't account for weaves he just can't see. As Lanfear so easily proved, Perrin is very susceptible to hidden weaves. Things he can't see, he can't fight. The OP is an enormous advantage in TAR. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, I can't really argue about the Brandon/OP thing, but I don't disagree overall. 

 

As I said, I think there are areas where Egwene would have been superior. She certainly was better in T'a'R until basically aMoL Perrin. 

 

Also, I don't think we can ever really 'know' who would be better than who. It depends on what happens. Perrin may never use T'a'R again after this and - had Egwene lived - she most certainly would have, and learned as much as possible. 

 

I say that the Wolf side of being in T'a'R is more powerful than the human side because of the struggle Perrin went through. Wolves are far more accepting and treat it as natural more than humans do. 

 

In the end, Perrin was using T'a'R like a wolf, and my impression of how it worked was that instinctual nature was better suited to manipulating the effects of T'a'R.

What you say about the Power is true, but the Power isn't something of T'a'R, nor a skill of T'a'R. It is an advantage, a big one, but I took the question to be skill in T'a'R itself, and the OP is foreign. In terms of using T'a'R, the OP is actually a weakness in terms of developing T'a'R skill, as you are relying on something of the real world, not the 'mechanics' of T'a'R. 

[Sabio]

Perrin is stronger, he can access and  leave TAR anytime he wants.  Egwene must either channel to get there or sleep.  Not to mention if you look at it, Egwene was shocked Perrin simply did away with her weave.  Egwene like the forsaken kept falling into they needed to channel to get what they wanted done in TAR. Someone who simply thinks what they wished to be done, is always going to be faster then someone relying on channeling.  Look at Perrin's final fight with slayer. Egwene never could of done that.

 

Did Egwene even know how to make a dreamshard?

[fionwe1987]

I say that the Wolf side of being in T'a'R is more powerful than the human side because of the struggle Perrin went through. Wolves are far more accepting and treat it as natural more than humans do. 

But that was uniquely a feature of Perrin's personality. If Egwene had been a Wolfsister, she would have jumped at the chance to learn new abilities, just as she did when she learned she was a channeler, or a Dreamwalker. 

 

In fact, if we go based on acceptance and feeling natural, Egwene has Perrin beat by a mile. She jumped into TAR, discovered several principles on her own, and once she got teachers, soaked whatever they taught as fast as was possible. We never see her question TAR, or feel it is unnatural for her. Scared of it at first, yes, but if you read those quotes she is also addicted to going back.  

 

In the end, Perrin was using T'a'R like a wolf, and my impression of how it worked was that instinctual nature was better suited to manipulating the effects of T'a'R.

I don't know. This was very much a late series introduction. Firstly... what is to say Dreamwalkers aren't naturals with instinct? It IS a Talent they are born with, after all. Secondly... we know for certain that TAR is about a strong sense of self, and also about how creatively you use its malleability. The first part the wolves have, but Egwene's confrontation with Mesaana, and the Wise One's subsequent dialogue shows that she has it in spades too. Certainly, we've seen no one else resist a change so much that it snapped their opponent's brain. 

 

As for creative uses of TAR, all the humans have been shown to be way better at this than any wolf we've seen. Even Perrin does better here than the wolves.

 

 

What you say about the Power is true, but the Power isn't something of T'a'R, nor a skill of T'a'R.

I fail to see how not. The Power is what drives all of Creation. Why is TAR exempt from this? And anyway, if Rand's balefire can make it so TAR cannot repair the damage and go back to normal, and Moghedien can use the OP to simply eject a soul from TAR, I fail to see how we can say the OP doesn't have anything to do with TAR. Like in the real world, it can cause dramatic effects in TAR. And skilled Dreamwalkers can combine it with their TAR skills to achieve things no wolf can imagine.

 

 

It is an advantage, a big one, but I took the question to be skill in T'a'R itself, and the OP is foreign.

Is it? Even Brandon didn't write it so. He has Egwene say that some things are indeed easier to achieve with the Power than by imagining it happening (though frankly that seems silly to me).

 

 

In terms of using T'a'R, the OP is actually a weakness in terms of developing T'a'R skill, as you are relying on something of the real world, not the 'mechanics' of T'a'R.

That's like saying knowing to use the hammer was a weakness for Perrin, since he was relying on something of the real world instead of the mechanics of TAR!

 

Look, TAR allows you to use your real world knowledge in very flexible ways. Whether you choose to use a weave or a hammer, the real thing that matters is how strongly you can project your own idea of reality. Perrin was easily able to deflect Balefire from a person weak in the dream (though even that contradicts the effects Rand's balefire had on TAR), but what if Egwene had thrown the weave at him with a real intention to kill? Or Lanfear? I doubt he'd have had any easier a time than if they'd used a hammer instead.

 

The advantage of the One Power is that you can do (and imagine) even more things, some of which are invisible. There is Compulsion, but also Healing, wards, invisible webs of Air, tiny flames. Some of these things you don't even have to actually weave, but since channelers deal with these things regularly, they can imagine these things with far more ease than non-channelers, who resort to more common things like hammers, bows and arrows, and so on. Nothing stops Perrin from surprising Slayer with a burst of fire, or a collapsing wall. But he never does it, because it just isn't in the way he thinks. Egwene, on the other hand, can do so. She imagines walls, fires, light, darkness, stupidity and so on. Heck, as far back as tFoH, she way more successfully stopped the pain of her very real welts from affecting her. Her created Bela was also far more lifelike than Perrin's created Hopper, though that might be an effect of her having been physically in TAR. 

 

Look, 11 books of evidence shows humans manipulating TAR far more cleverly and powerfully than wolves. We knew dead wolves went to TAR as far back as tSR, yet no one assumed that meant anything for TAR skills. Brandon tried to change some of that, maybe because he didn't think of TAR quite the same way as RJ did, but I prefer to trust what we've seen.

 

And then there's Brandon's own semi-retraction, where he said Perrin and Egwene were more or less equal anyway, which makes no sense if being wolf-like is some advantage.

 

All in all, I'd be more inclined to think the much more clever and inventive humans would do better in TAR. 

[Sabio]

Had Perrin and Egwene been fghting, she would  of been dead because she was relying on channeling.  She was shocked at how easily he took care of her weave.  By default she resorted to channeling.  As we have seen the weakness of channelers is they always try to resort to channeling. 

[fionwe1987]

Had Perrin and Egwene been fghting, she would  of been dead because she was relying on channeling. 

Like he was relying on his hammer. What is your point? Should Egwene have sent a weave of Fire at him, along with the certainty that it would burn him, are you saying Perrin would have had an easier time against it than if she shot an arrow at him?

 

She was shocked at how easily he took care of her weave.  By default she resorted to channeling.  As we have seen the weakness of channelers is they always try to resort to channeling. 

She was shocked that he stopped Balefire from a non-Dreamer. 

 

She was only surprised he pushed back her weave of Air, and her ropes. But Brandon said both those things were because she wasn't trying, and had no idea Perrin would be able to resist. If you think someone strong enough in the Dream to snap the mind of an opponent wouldn't give Perrin trouble with her weaves if she was trying to kill him, you're simply delusional.

[muddasssir]

Dear Fionwe how many ties we have fought over our eggy the exalted one I have lost count, but saying that eggy is stronger than perrin in Tar is a new high by even your very high standards. I mean she couldn't even have come close to slayer let alone kill him. 

[fionwe1987]

Dear Fionwe how many ties we have fought over our eggy the exalted one I have lost count, but saying that eggy is stronger than perrin in Tar is a new high by even your very high standards. I mean she couldn't even have come close to slayer let alone kill him. 

As I remember, Slayer ran away from Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne. 

 

And its not just me saying Egwene is in the same weight class as Perrin, even Brandon says so:

 

 

 

People have asked if I think Perrin is better atTel’aran’rhiod than Egwene. I don’t think he is, the balefire-bending scene notwithstanding. They represent two sides of a coin, instinct and learning. In some cases Perrin will be more capable, and in others Egwene will shine.

 

Also, its worth remembering it isn't just wolf-brothers that get to learn from wolves:

 

 

 

From what I have read of Aes Sedai who had the Talent called Dreaming, Dreamers sometimes spoke of encountering wolves in their dreams, even wolves that acted as guides.

 

That basically negates any innate differences between Dreamwalkers and Wolfbrothers. They are humans who enter the Dream. They can learn from other Dreamwalkers or Wolves, but they're not fundamentally different in how they approach the Dream.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Like they said, BS was probably implying that Egwene had a stronger presence in TAR, but if it's a kill or be killed dog fight, I'd vote for Perrin. Egwene just lazes around to much and haveto TAR combat training. While Perrin learned TAR/Wolfdream for just that. Of course potentially Egwene could probably overcome Perrin if she does combat train in TAR in preparation for their match up.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Yes, but the fact that she can channel is actually in her favor....she comments that she needed to learn when to just impose her will and when to actually channel because certain things in TAR are actually easier if u channel.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Hmmm... its hard to say.

 

Egwene seems pretty adept at moving about TAR, manipulating it to her advantage, etc. Perrin is very good at combat, and, as someone above me pointed out, hiding in nightmares- I don't see Egwene doing this as readily. I agree with randsc that Egwene is a planner, and Perrin better at acting on instinct, and I think perhaps this has to do with Egwene being in control, or rather, not liking NOT being in control of the situation.

 

Leaving aside questions of their ruthlessness- assuming it did come down to a fight (say one or the other had been turned to the shadow, or Faile was in danger), I think Perrin would win. Egwene's strength in TAR is her ability to manipulate it- she cannot fight Perrin with the OP, he'll simply brush it off- and this is where Perrin's strength at instinctive acting might come in handy- he may be better able to adapt to her fighting style than she to his.

 

I take Brandon's comments as a measure of their reasonably equal skill level, rather than him saying Egwene is better. Bearing in mind, that in the scene he is referring to, Perrin shows up in the tower, brushes off Egwene's weaves like they are nothing (as indeed they are to him), basically swats away Balefire, which she thinks is impossible, and basically leaves her gaping after him. Without saying "Look, Egwene was distracted at that time, and she didn't realise Perrin's ability in TAR", the scene makes it look like Perrin simply owns Egwene in TAR ability, and RJ/BS seem to envision the two of them as both being strong, but in different aspects.

 

So, if its a question of who would win in a fight, its Perrin, for me. In terms of overall strength in TAR- probably about equal, based on Brandon's comments.

 

Also, whilst I appreciate the OP simply meant that they didn't want their thread to descend into Egwene bashing, which is fair enough, telling people to stay away if they have a problem with Egwene, because you like Egwene and not Perrin, does kind of give off the impression that they don't really want a discussion, even if that's not really what they meant to say.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I understand the comment...certain people seem to not like certain characters to the point where many posts devolve into some pointing out a character's weaknesses while downplaying their strengths...and Egwene is one of them. A fight between them isn't likely though...working as a team, they seem more compatible than any Two Rivers characters, even Rand and Nyneave....I'd put my money on Egwene and Perrin against any Two Chosen in TAR any day of the week.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle. http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/hopper.gif http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/perrin.gif http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.gif http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/egwene.gif http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/mad.gif

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Yeah but she can influence others dreams...all she'd have to do is pull him into a dream of her own making. Yes that's wrong according to the Aiel, but point is that once she did he'd lose the ability to influence his environment...

[dexterryu]

Yeah but she can influence others dreams...all she'd have to do is pull him into a dream of her own making. Yes that's wrong according to the Aiel, but point is that once she did he'd lose the ability to influence his environment...

 

That's a different conversation. TAR/WolfDream is different assuming we are talking about who is better in the actual "Unseen World". What you are suggesting is outside of TAR... not sure exactly what it is called.

 

To me this conversation is similar to the Nyneave vs Egwene in a one power battle. While Egwene is more overall knowledgeable... Perrin is more experienced when it comes to combat in the World of Dreams. Almost all of his time there (at least on screen) is in combat (Slayer, Dreamspike, Nightmare training with Hopper). Where Egwene has seen much less combat in TAR (mainly just the Mesaana battle) which is why she's so flabbergasted by the stuff Perrin does. He has a bunch of knowledge, battle experience, and learned battle instincts. She has extreme knowledge but much less in terms of battle experience and instincts.

 

One other thing that tips the scale towards Perrin in my view (specific to TAR)... in TAR he's only had TAR "abilities" to use as a tool whereas Egwene uses and also relies on Power use (which Perrin made moot). Also, think about Bair (a non-channeler) and how impressed Egwene was with how she did in the Mesaana fight.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

 

Yeah but she can influence others dreams...all she'd have to do is pull him into a dream of her own making. Yes that's wrong according to the Aiel, but point is that once she did he'd lose the ability to influence his environment...

That's a different conversation. TAR/WolfDream is different assuming we are talking about who is better in the actual "Unseen World". What you are suggesting is outside of TAR... not sure exactly what it is called.

 

To me this conversation is similar to the Nyneave vs Egwene in a one power battle. While Egwene is more overall knowledgeable... Perrin is more experienced when it comes to combat in the World of Dreams. Almost all of his time there (at least on screen) is in combat (Slayer, Dreamspike, Nightmare training with Hopper). Where Egwene has seen much less combat in TAR (mainly just the Mesaana battle) which is why she's so flabbergasted by the stuff Perrin does. He has a bunch of knowledge, battle experience, and learned battle instincts. She has extreme knowledge but much less in terms of battle experience and instincts.

 

One other thing that tips the scale towards Perrin in my view (specific to TAR)... in TAR he's only had TAR "abilities" to use as a tool whereas Egwene uses and also relies on Power use (which Perrin made moot). Also, think about Bair (a non-channeler) and how impressed Egwene was with how she did in the Mesaana fight.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

This is all true, but Egwene understands why things work a certain way, whereas even though Perrin has an extensive knowledge of how things work for the most part he doesn't really understand the mechanics...in other words, in an actual fight he'd be handicapped by the fact that his limited understanding would put a glass ceiling, so to speak, on his abilities. Egwene was able to ride Bela to Salidar, whereas Perrin was unable to bring an image of Hopper to life in the same way, implying that there was more to the process than just imagining him there. However, I think that the fact that egwene was able to use the Power affected these things. Perrin didn't destroy the weave of balefire, he merely deflected it, and Egwene herself realized during this fight that in fact it was easier to do certain things using the Power rather than trying to impose your will on TAR. I also wonder if this is why the Aes Sedai seem to think there is some sort of connection between OP strength and strength of will.

[dexterryu]

This is all true, but Egwene understands why things work a certain way, whereas even though Perrin has an extensive knowledge of how things work for the most part he doesn't really understand the mechanics...in other words, in an actual fight he'd be handicapped by the fact that his limited understanding would put a glass ceiling, so to speak, on his abilities. Egwene was able to ride Bela to Salidar, whereas Perrin was unable to bring an image of Hopper to life in the same way, implying that there was more to the process than just imagining him there. However, I think that the fact that egwene was able to use the Power affected these things. Perrin didn't destroy the weave of balefire, he merely deflected it, and Egwene herself realized during this fight that in fact it was easier to do certain things using the Power rather than trying to impose your will on TAR. I also wonder if this is why the Aes Sedai seem to think there is some sort of connection between OP strength and strength of will.

 

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not hating on Egwene's abilities (or her character). She's a badass, but Perrin is better. I just know first hand that in a fight that instinct > fighting mechanics. The best fighters have both. This is why I put Perrin ahead in a theoretical duel. He has been schooled on how to fight in TAR whereas Egwene has been schooled in TAR in general. Combine that with actual experience and I believe Perrin would come out on top.

 

Some other things to think about... Perrin defeated Slayer who was in TAR in the flesh. He also defeated Cyndane (Lanfear) 1 on 1 while both were in TAR.

[flinn]

 We saw this play out and Perrin thoroughly abused Egwene in TAR. He had an understanding of TAR that she was nowhere close to, and this is not Egwene bashing. I actually like Egwene, she is my favorite female character I do believe.

[rand4747]

I think the difference with what Perrin and Egwene did in TAR with Bela/Hopper is Perrin tried to bring the real hopper back which just is not possible. He can not retrieve the soul and return it to his creation. Whereas Egwene created a horse that is like Bela, but is not THE Bela, it has its own created personality which just resembles Bela.

 

So I think its possible to create sorta generic animals and people, just not create something that IS the real thing. Like in the fear dreams you can have animals and people in them but they are just representations.

Think of Perrin bringing back hopper to Rand trying to bring that child back to life in the Stone of Tear. Whereas Bela in TAR is like someone using something the mirror of mists to create an illusion, except in TAR you can give it physical form, which i guess in the real world could imitate physical form with weaves of air too.