Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[baalsmistress]

Just to back up Ablar's point about the individual green AS.

 

There is little doubt that there are exceptionally gifted channellers within the green ajah, but they have no coherent organisation in battle, no unit tactics, no experience in coordinating their efforts.

 

I'd categorize it as the difference between a roman legion and the ancient briton tribes. While the tribes had a long warrior tradition, and were often individually skilled, when they came up against the coordinated tactics of the romans, they had no answer, and fell.

 

Likewise the Aes Sedai, no matter how skilled, no matter how powerful, will fall if they fight as individuals against a coordinated and drilled unit. As has been said before, the strength of the black tower is as much a result of it's use of coordinated mass channelling and long hours spent drilling in the use of combat weaves as it is a result of the individual strengths of the men.

[MasterAblar]

I am pretty sure they can train with the oaths, they consider using the One Power as a weapon only when they are using it against people. Throwing fireballs and lightnings at rocks or trees during training would surely be OK.

 

Well, yeah, that's what I was thinking too, particularly since if they can't do so, I rather wonder how they pass on the knowledge.

[baalsmistress]

And look, here is this weave. It creates a ball of fire. You can direct it up into the air and it makes a beautiful light show. Perfect for celebrations. Also useful for burning rubbish. (or burning enemy soldiers)

 

And then there is this weave. I calls lightning fromt the sky - very useful for helping with construction work when you need to clear a patch of trees. (or blowing enemy formations apart)

 

Or this weave, it moves earth - most useful for digging holes. (or dropping an army into a pit)

 

This weave will heat a liquid. Most useful for making tea (or boiling someone's blood in their veins)

 

There are any number of alternate uses for weaves that can be weaponised.

[Skeeve the Great]

Where should the Greens be if not the Borderlands? Wherever the hell they want to be. There are any number of useful things they could be doing, and guarding the Blightborder is only one of them, not even the most important.

 

But the main point of stations in Borderlands is that Green can actually perfect their weaves in the regular basis! What's better practice targets than hordes of Trollocs?!

[randsc]

I just hope, for the sake of consistency, that everyone is willing to apply the, "just because it didn't happen on screen doesn't mean it didn't happen" standard to the other characters. Let's hav eno more talk of what Rand, Mat, Perrin, Faile, Nynaeve, etc. failed to do. It might all have happened off-screen, eh?

[Kahsm]

Before she healed stilling, Nynaeve notes that the yellows are the least interested in welcoming her theories on healing. They also scoff at her use of herbs to assist in healing. If you want to complain about an Ajah, I think that is way worse than the Greens. At least greens seem to respect someone who does step up, Yellows just seem to be petty and jealous.

 

A lot of you seem to take the Ra's al Ghul vs. Gotham position to the tower. I think the Aes Sedai "supporters" are not saying nothing is wrong, we're just taking the Batman-ish "It's not beyond saving, there are good people here." approach.

[Suttree]

I just hope, for the sake of consistency, that everyone is willing to apply the, "just because it didn't happen on screen doesn't mean it didn't happen" standard to the other characters. Let's hav eno more talk of what Rand, Mat, Perrin, Faile, Nynaeve, etc. failed to do. It might all have happened off-screen, eh?

 

I'm interested to see all these threads/posts of people calling out those characters failings? Cant find them searching would you mind linking me to a few Randsc?

 

I believe you are referring to the Greens so I'll just ask you straight out. If they don't know tactics and have zero practical combat experience as some put forth how do they possibly play a role at TG? If you hold to that view do people think they are being set up for a monumental failure?

[MasterAblar]

Well, I rather doubt they're being set up for a monumental success...

[MasterAblar]

Before she healed stilling, Nynaeve notes that the yellows are the least interested in welcoming her theories on healing. They also scoff at her use of herbs to assist in healing. If you want to complain about an Ajah, I think that is way worse than the Greens. At least greens seem to respect someone who does step up, Yellows just seem to be petty and jealous.

 

A lot of you seem to take the Ra's al Ghul vs. Gotham position to the tower. I think the Aes Sedai "supporters" are not saying nothing is wrong, we're just taking the Batman-ish "It's not beyond saving, there are good people here." approach.

 

Problem is, it's the Aes Sedai who are supposed to be doing the saving in the first place.

 

And I agree the Yellows do come across as rather petty and jealous, at least when Nyneave is around. I'm sure they have redeeming qualities though.

[Kahsm]

Before she healed stilling, Nynaeve notes that the yellows are the least interested in welcoming her theories on healing. They also scoff at her use of herbs to assist in healing. If you want to complain about an Ajah, I think that is way worse than the Greens. At least greens seem to respect someone who does step up, Yellows just seem to be petty and jealous.

 

A lot of you seem to take the Ra's al Ghul vs. Gotham position to the tower. I think the Aes Sedai "supporters" are not saying nothing is wrong, we're just taking the Batman-ish "It's not beyond saving, there are good people here." approach.

 

Problem is, it's the Aes Sedai who are supposed to be doing the saving in the first place.

 

And I agree the Yellows do come across as rather petty and jealous, at least when Nyneave is around. I'm sure they have redeeming qualities though.

 

I think Rand would be Batman in my Analogy, and Egwene would be Rachel, and the Aes Sedai the often, but not always, corrupt DAs and Judges.

[MasterAblar]

Before she healed stilling, Nynaeve notes that the yellows are the least interested in welcoming her theories on healing. They also scoff at her use of herbs to assist in healing. If you want to complain about an Ajah, I think that is way worse than the Greens. At least greens seem to respect someone who does step up, Yellows just seem to be petty and jealous.

 

A lot of you seem to take the Ra's al Ghul vs. Gotham position to the tower. I think the Aes Sedai "supporters" are not saying nothing is wrong, we're just taking the Batman-ish "It's not beyond saving, there are good people here." approach.

 

Problem is, it's the Aes Sedai who are supposed to be doing the saving in the first place.

 

And I agree the Yellows do come across as rather petty and jealous, at least when Nyneave is around. I'm sure they have redeeming qualities though.

 

I think Rand would be Batman in my Analogy, and Egwene would be Rachel, and the Aes Sedai the often, but not always, corrupt DAs and Judges.

 

If that's the case, then Egwene is screwed in aMoL.

[Ala Rubra]

I believe you are referring to the Greens so I'll just ask you straight out. If they don't know tactics and have zero practical combat experience as some put forth how do they possibly play a role at TG? If you hold to that view do people think they are being set up for a monumental failure?

 

Not randsc, but I actually don't think there will be a monumental failure on the Green Ajah's part, worthless though they may appear. I just don't think that's what RJ planned. However, if they did experience a failure due to the reasons mentioned by others here, it would not make them worthless. They can still provide plenty of support through linking. Not just with the Asha'man, but with whatever experienced Aes Sedai there are in the Tower. After all, the great thing about linking is that only the person directing the flows has to be any good at all. The rest are just a power source, and whatever flaws the Greens may have, they can still be used for that.

[Suttree]

Well, I rather doubt they're being set up for a monumental success...

 

I actually think it's exactly that. Surely BS doesn't hold to the extremist views that they have no combat experience and know nothing of strategy. I believe the Seanchan attack was rock bottom for the WT and they are being set up for redemption at TG.

 

 

I believe you are referring to the Greens so I'll just ask you straight out. If they don't know tactics and have zero practical combat experience as some put forth how do they possibly play a role at TG? If you hold to that view do people think they are being set up for a monumental failure?

 

Not randsc, but I actually don't think there will be a monumental failure on the Green Ajah's part, worthless though they may appear. I just don't think that's what RJ planned. However, if they did experience a failure due to the reasons mentioned by others here, it would not make them worthless. They can still provide plenty of support through linking. Not just with the Asha'man, but with whatever experienced Aes Sedai there are in the Tower. After all, the great thing about linking is that only the person directing the flows has to be any good at all. The rest are just a power source, and whatever flaws the Greens may have, they can still be used for that.

 

So is it a flaw in how they have been presented? For some reason people tend to sweep successes under the rug(Kiruna Dumais Wells, Alanna 2Rs), heck I've even seen one person try to ridicule Cadsuane's efforts at the cleansing. Is it that the authors haven't done enough to set them up for possible success at TG? Because if the things some people say are true regarding their skills it is literally impossible for them to contribute in any way other than what you present.

[baalsmistress]

If that's the case, then Egwene is screwed in aMoL.

 

She just bonded Galad and decreed she wanted him as husband. And he just saved her life - she's probably screwed already

[AquilaInfernus]

I found the elephant! (s'redit maybe?)

 

The borderlands pay tribute and greatly respect Aes Sedai, Is this because they produce sky lights on demand at festivals? Or perhaps it is because they earned their reputation? The flaws of Aes Sedai come from their arrogance and fickleness - hence all the warnings about trust.

 

Malkier died a mere 40 odd years ago, and Aes Sedai were sent (New Spring; An Answer, 312 Orbit ed), but they arrived after Malkier was broken. Shienar, Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea all sent men. No doubt the 100+ sisters who arrived to witness Malkier's destruction did not just sit their horses while the Malkieri were fleeing. Undoubtedly the majority of those sisters were Green. Not enough to save the country, but clearly they did something, and that was hampered by the speed of events.

 

This knowledge was 'sealed to the Tower' as Moiraine thinks when she tells Lan. Furthermore - who else's exploits would you expect to read about bar those of the characters who appear on screen? Why do the borderland monarchs have 13 Aes Sedai with them heading South, and how many of the 300 odd 'neutral' Aes Sedai are actually accounted for? The White Tower uses mystery and reputation as armour, but how long would this last if there wasn't truth an enduring truth to it?

[Mr Ares]

Where should the Greens be if not the Borderlands? Wherever the hell they want to be. There are any number of useful things they could be doing, and guarding the Blightborder is only one of them, not even the most important.

 

But the main point of stations in Borderlands is that Green can actually perfect their weaves in the regular basis! What's better practice targets than hordes of Trollocs?!

Except they wouldn't be facing hordes of Trollocs on a regular basis. They might go years between any significant sized force. Most days they would face nothing at all. Most raids would sneak past them or attack nowhere near them, so they wouldn't be helping much. If they want practice, they can just go to the Blight, track down Shadowspawn and fight them. Then go home. Sitting and waiting isn't practice. That's what they would spend most of their time on the Blightborder doing. Which part of that was unclear in my last post?

[damandred]

Isn't that the definition of standing ready. While I'll agree that greens stationed in the Borderlands wouldn't be fighting every day were do you get the years from?

Everything I've read points to near constant war at the Border.

And no matter how various people try to spin it, the fact that a AS presence along the border would be invaluable, I think, is common sense.

For those who point to the AS with the borderland monarchs, where were they at Tarwins Gap or least the Shienar kings advisers?

And the point about individual sister fighting with there warders along the blight seems selfish to me. There should be frameworks in place to help the armies in instances like Tarwins Gap,which though may not be regular occurrences, do happen from time to time. When Fal Dara is preparing for war in tEoTW, Lans comments suggest that it had happened before but the armies had always, threw the Trollocs back.

So the AS might get bored sometimes, isn't that one of the duties of any solider/warrior, and the suggestion that the greens are above that just points to more AS arrogance.

[aunt_pol]

I feel a little dense for only now seeing the parallel between the Greens and the Whitecloaks - as in the battle against Trollocs that Galad realises they were totally unprepared for. Obv borderland leaders would not have entertained a private army wandering their kingdoms willy nilly, but surely some form of training/aid/alliance could have ben worked out so that an organisation dedicated to fighting the Shadow might actually gain some experience doing so.

 

Secondly. Couldn't Greens with all of their Warders have garnered some experience exploring the southern reaches of the Blight, linking and using Worms and such for target practice?? Yes, yes, it's dangerous, but Tarmon Gaidon isn't actually going to be a Sunday fair.

And it's stated so often throughout the series that Trollocs are not unusual foes for borderlanders that organised squads of Greens and Warders would hardly have been sitting around twiddling their thumbs. Of course the caveat is that many of them may have been up there fighting away, but keeping it secret just 'cos they like secrets.

 

2B: Gawyn points out to Eg that it's pretty much a moral duty at this stage for AS to increase Warder numbers. That point was really always valid, especially along Blightborder.

 

Thirdly. Why, in all that's holy, are there not Yellow-run hospitals throughout Randland? There is simply no excuse for that. The sick being brought to Tar Valon or happening across a wandering AS is not an adequate provision for the ill, nor indeed does it provide sufficient opportunity for Yellows to hone their skills. IIRC Elayne is the first person to show real thought on the possibility of hospital organisation.

 

Basically, for all of Egwene's flaws, they could probably have done with her like a very long time ago.

[MasterAblar]

Well, I rather doubt they're being set up for a monumental success...

 

I actually think it's exactly that. Surely BS doesn't hold to the extremist views that they have no combat experience and know nothing of strategy. I believe the Seanchan attack was rock bottom for the WT and they are being set up for redemption at TG.

 

They'll probably do better than they did then, but I don't think they'll be a key fighting force against the Shadow, not anymore than the other Aes Sedai. In other words they won't be much more important than any other Aes Sedai. So far they simply have not shown anywhere near the combat efficiency of Damane and Ashaman.

 

I believe you are referring to the Greens so I'll just ask you straight out. If they don't know tactics and have zero practical combat experience as some put forth how do they possibly play a role at TG? If you hold to that view do people think they are being set up for a monumental failure?

 

Not randsc, but I actually don't think there will be a monumental failure on the Green Ajah's part, worthless though they may appear. I just don't think that's what RJ planned. However, if they did experience a failure due to the reasons mentioned by others here, it would not make them worthless. They can still provide plenty of support through linking. Not just with the Asha'man, but with whatever experienced Aes Sedai there are in the Tower. After all, the great thing about linking is that only the person directing the flows has to be any good at all. The rest are just a power source, and whatever flaws the Greens may have, they can still be used for that.

 

So is it a flaw in how they have been presented? For some reason people tend to sweep successes under the rug(Kiruna Dumais Wells, Alanna 2Rs), heck I've even seen one person try to ridicule Cadsuane's efforts at the cleansing. Is it that the authors haven't done enough to set them up for possible success at TG? Because if the things some people say are true regarding their skills it is literally impossible for them to contribute in any way other than what you present.

 

I think they simply were not ready. Individual Greens like those have shown battle skills, but as a group they haven't shown anything yet, and the one time they had their chance to prove they could back up their reputation, they blew it, and came off as completely outmached. Now yes there were circumstances, but nonetheless there has been nothing to show that they could match the Damane and Ashaman, who are the two other groups specialized in fighting. Those two groups are effecient, direct, and brutal, and most importantly they've shown great ability to work together. Also those two groups both, particularly the Ashaman, have a hellish training, and perfect discipline. The Green Ajah lack that, so they may have some skills individually, but as a group, I find it unlikely they'll manage the same destructive capability as the Damane and Ashaman.

[Elvira_Sedai]

It seems to me that Greens credo of be ready for Tarmon Gaidon is realised in their number of Warders , which are known as best melee fighters . So , the Greens role throw their Warders will be more than other AS could do .

 

And I have another point of this topic . I mean all characters are the constructs of RJ's mind and they are what he thought they should be and he was only one to decide which events should be on screen and which ones no . Also , I think that Borderlanders would not respect the AS so much if their precense there would so episodic as some their haters post here . So , instead of blaming AS the whole and Greens particular you should blame RJ for not giving them much attention in the books

[Suttree]

For those who point to the AS with the borderland monarchs, where were they at Tarwins Gap or least the Shienar kings advisers?

 

Don't have an answer and I think more than anything it was an early bookism. I would like to point out that for whatever reason in the tPoD prologue where we meet those AS, Shienar is the country that doesn't have an advisor. Also as others have mentioned the AS would not be held with such honor if they never spent time fighting alongside the Borderlanders

 

 

Secondly. Couldn't Greens with all of their Warders have garnered some experience exploring the southern reaches of the Blight, linking and using Worms and such for target practice?? Yes, yes, it's dangerous, but Tarmon Gaidon isn't actually going to be a Sunday fair.

 

It's pretty ridiculous for anyone to put forth that this doesn't happen. Moiraine in tEotW was hardly the first AS to venture into the blight.

 

 

Now yes there were circumstances, but nonetheless there has been nothing to show that they could match the Damane and Ashaman, who are the two other groups specialized in fighting. Those two groups are effecient, direct, and brutal, and most importantly they've shown great ability to work together. Also those two groups both, particularly the Ashaman, have a hellish training, and perfect discipline. The Green Ajah lack that, so they may have some skills individually, but as a group, I find it unlikely they'll manage the same destructive capability as the Damane and Ashaman.

 

You don't think that warders and linking make up for any difference in skill with battle weaves they may have with the Damane?

 

Now the Ashaman are a diff thing entirely. Their skills are a step above.

[MasterAblar]

Now yes there were circumstances, but nonetheless there has been nothing to show that they could match the Damane and Ashaman, who are the two other groups specialized in fighting. Those two groups are effecient, direct, and brutal, and most importantly they've shown great ability to work together. Also those two groups both, particularly the Ashaman, have a hellish training, and perfect discipline. The Green Ajah lack that, so they may have some skills individually, but as a group, I find it unlikely they'll manage the same destructive capability as the Damane and Ashaman.

 

You don't think that warders and linking make up for any difference in skill with battle weaves they may have with the Damane?

 

Now the Ashaman are a diff thing entirely. Their skills are a step above.

 

The warders, I don't think so, they'd never manage to reach the Damane before dying, though I suppose they might be able to distract them. I think the best use for them would be protect the Aes Sedai from anyone trying to harm her, so basically to watch her back. They would be best used defensively rather than offensively.

 

Linking on the other hand, could, and probably should, even things out. It is afterall the area where the Damane are inferior. The problem is, linking can be a dangerous thing to use, because while it grants great power to the one leading the circle, the rest are left defenceless, and harmless. In fact, in aCoS, Cadsuane herself says precisely what the drawback to linking is: only one person can weave. Furthermore the channellers in the circle have to stay together, and if the enemy manages to surround them then they're probably done for. This wasn't an issue for Egwene and the novices in the WT because they would have been fighting in close quarters, which meant every cirle was like a machine gun pointed down a corridor. Good luck getting past it. When you're not in close quarters the best solution would be to have individual channellers acting like warders and protecting the Aes Sedai in the cirle. Let the circle deal with attacking, while the individual channellers defend. This might make up for the Damane's supperior discipline and training with battle weaves. Of course the other problem the Aes Sedai have is the oaths. They can't attack first, they have to feel like their life is threatened.

 

Now, the Damane have their own drawback, which no one else has: they have to have a Suldam with them. Which means instead of one target, you have two. Just knocking the Suldam off balance might gain the opposing channeller the advantage. So yes, if the Green Ajah Aes Sedai can manage to come up with an effective use of circles, they should be able to match the Damane. Probably. But, I have a feeling that the Green Ajah are a little hot headed, so whoever is leading will have to put an emphasis on discipline. And honestly, discipline seems to be what it comes down to more often than not.

[Suttree]

Now yes there were circumstances, but nonetheless there has been nothing to show that they could match the Damane and Ashaman, who are the two other groups specialized in fighting. Those two groups are effecient, direct, and brutal, and most importantly they've shown great ability to work together. Also those two groups both, particularly the Ashaman, have a hellish training, and perfect discipline. The Green Ajah lack that, so they may have some skills individually, but as a group, I find it unlikely they'll manage the same destructive capability as the Damane and Ashaman.

 

You don't think that warders and linking make up for any difference in skill with battle weaves they may have with the Damane?

 

Now the Ashaman are a diff thing entirely. Their skills are a step above.

 

The warders, I don't think so, they'd never manage to reach the Damane before dying, though I suppose they might be able to distract them. I think the best use for them would be protect the Aes Sedai from anyone trying to harm her, so basically to watch her back. They would be best used defensively rather than offensively.

 

Linking on the other hand, could, and probably should, even things out. It is afterall the area where the Damane are inferior. The problem is, linking can be a dangerous thing to use, because while it grants great power to the one leading the circle, the rest are left defenceless, and harmless. In fact, in aCoS, Cadsuane herself says precisely what the drawback to linking is: only one person can weave. Furthermore the channellers in the circle have to stay together, and if the enemy manages to surround them then they're probably done for. This wasn't an issue for Egwene and the novices in the WT because they would have been fighting in close quarters, which meant every cirle was like a machine gun pointed down a corridor. Good luck getting past it. When you're not in close quarters the best solution would be to have individual channellers acting like warders and protecting the Aes Sedai in the cirle. Let the circle deal with attacking, while the individual channellers defend. This might make up for the Damane's supperior discipline and training with battle weaves. Of course the other problem the Aes Sedai have is the oaths. They can't attack first, they have to feel like their life is threatened.

 

Now, the Damane have their own drawback, which no one else has: they have to have a Suldam with them. Which means instead of one target, you have two. Just knocking the Suldam off balance might gain the opposing channeller the advantage. So yes, if the Green Ajah Aes Sedai can manage to come up with an effective use of circles, they should be able to match the Damane. Probably. But, I have a feeling that the Green Ajah are a little hot headed, so whoever is leading will have to put an emphasis on discipline. And honestly, discipline seems to be what it comes down to more often than not.

 

When I read "match" I thought you were referring to the diff groups fighting Shadowspawn at TG. I was thinking warders and linking might put them a step above in that context. Regardless your answer was very solid, I concur totally.

[Mr Ares]

Isn't that the definition of standing ready.

Sitting idle? Not really.

While I'll agree that greens stationed in the Borderlands wouldn't be fighting every day were do you get the years from?

Everything I've read points to near constant war at the Border.

Really? What I've read points to much raiding (over a border thousands of miles long, somewhat hampering the abilities of the AS to effectively guard them), with larger attacks being rarer. For example, in EotW, Agelmar states that "Kandor, Arafel, Saldaea - the Trollocs raided them all straight through the winter. Nothing like that has happened since the Trolloc Wars." In other words, a winter of heavy raiding is damn near unheard of. Conflict might be constant along the Blightborder - enough so as to justify the massive military presence - but most of it is small scale, and spread over a wide area. Precisely what the AS - low numbers of elite fighters - are worst equipped to deal with. Also, not likely to be what TG is composed of. In a pitched battle they could do a lot of good. Against raiding, they wouldn't be there, it would just be too little, too late.

And no matter how various people try to spin it, the fact that a AS presence along the border would be invaluable, I think, is common sense.

And yet your justifications for it are so poor.

For those who point to the AS with the borderland monarchs, where were they at Tarwins Gap or least the Shienar kings advisers?

Presumably the Shienaran king's advisor was in her place - with the Shienaran king.

And the point about individual sister fighting with there warders along the blight seems selfish to me. There should be frameworks in place to help the armies in instances like Tarwins Gap,which though may not be regular occurrences, do happen from time to time. When Fal Dara is preparing for war in tEoTW, Lans comments suggest that it had happened before but the armies had always, threw the Trollocs back.

So the AS might get bored sometimes, isn't that one of the duties of any solider/warrior, and the suggestion that the greens are above that just points to more AS arrogance.

Or it points to the fact that they would be useless most of the time, helpful some of the time, and essential once every few centuries. Meanwhile, their presence elsewhere could allow them to do other useful things, and being elsewhere in no way hampers their mission statement. In other words, if they were stationed along the Blightborder, the little good they would do there when they could be helping elsewhere could also be used as ammunition against them.

[aunt_pol]

 

Secondly. Couldn't Greens with all of their Warders have garnered some experience exploring the southern reaches of the Blight, linking and using Worms and such for target practice?? Yes, yes, it's dangerous, but Tarmon Gaidon isn't actually going to be a Sunday fair.

 

It's pretty ridiculous for anyone to put forth that this doesn't happen. Moiraine in tEotW was hardly the first AS to venture into the blight.

 

 

Yes, but all we have to go on is the books and I don't recall any passage suggesting she wasn't. All we have to go on, to judge them on, is the books. By the way the Tower Greens flap about during the Seanchan raid, they clearly have no experience working as a team. The odd woman every now and again wandering around to satisfy her own ends/curiosity isn't going to make them TG-ready. I probable should have made my point better in the first place. Discipline, command structure - they seem more or less to be things AS set aside once they attain the shawl. And TG won't be won without both, I'd imagine.