Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[SuperFade]

Almost the entire chap 14 of TOM suggests you are completely wrong. Here's a snippet with a few highlighted parts:

 

Two Wise Ones sat on the floor at the center of the room, amid a forest of columns. Above their light brown skirts and white blouses, their faces were distinctly different. Bair's was wrinkled with age, like leather left to cure in the sun. For all her occasional sternness, smile lines wove from her eyes and mouth.

Amys' face was silky smooth, an effect of being able to channel. Her face was not ageless, but she could have been Aes Sedai for the emotion she showed.

The two had their shawls at their waists, their blouses unlaced. Egwene sat before them but left herself wearing wetlander clothing. Amys raised an eyebrow; was she thinking that Egwene should have changed? Or did she appreciate that Egwene did not imitate something she was not? It was difficult to tell.

"The battle within the White Tower is over," Egwene said.

"The woman Elaida a'Roihan?" Amys asked.

"Taken by the Seanchan," Egwene said. "I have been accepted as Amyr-lin by those who followed her. My position is far from secure—at times, I feel balanced atop a stone that sits balanced atop another stone. But the White Tower is again whole."

Amys clicked her tongue softly. She raised her hand and a striped stole—an Amyrlin's stole—appeared in it. "I suppose you should be wearing this, then."

Egwene let out a soft, slow breath. It was remarkable to her, sometimes, how much stock she put in the opinions of these women. She took the stole, putting it around her shoulders.

Sorilea will dislike this news," Bair said, shaking her head. "She still had a hope that you would leave those fools in the White Tower and return

to us."

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rbiod. In like manner \ cannot abandon those of the White Tower."

So yeah...

 

That's not introspection. Simply showing her POV thoughts isn't self-reflection. She's not second-guessing herself, or wondering if she did the right thing, or chastising herself because she didn't do enough. All she's doing is giving her thoughts on the Aes Sedai and their faults. Not her faults, the faults of the Aes Sedai themselves. It's the same as always; cool self-assurance, with the underlying assertion that she is doing the right thing. This wouldn't be a bad thing if it wasn't present all the time.

 

And then as for "she expects others to follow her unconditionally". That might be because that's exactly the advice Nynaeve gave her when Egwene (Realizing she needed help) asked for it:

 

"It was a matter of not letting them forget my station. They couldn't be allowed to continue to think of me as a young girl. Establish your authority quickly. Be firm with the women in the Tower, Egwene, because they'll begin by seeing how far they can push you. And once you've let them push you a handspan, it's harder than winter molasses to get back what you've lost."

"All right," Egwene said.

"And don't come up with idle work for them to do," Nynaeve said. They passed out of the Hall of the Tower, strolling through the hallways. "Get them used to you giving orders, but make those orders good ones. Make sure they don't bypass you. I'd guess that it might be easy for them to start looking to the Sitters or the Ajah heads instead of you; women in Emond's Field started going to the Women's Circle instead of me.

"If you discover that the Sitters are making decisions that should have come before the entire Hall, you have to make a big fuss about it. Trust me. They'll grouse that you're making too much noise over small things, but they'll think twice about doing something important without your attention."

Egwene nodded. It was good advice, though—of course—it came colored by Nynaeve's view of the world.

 

And yet when Egwene was made Amyrlin for the first time she begged Nyneave and Elayne not to call her 'Mother'. This passage doesn't even support your argument, it's just Nyneave giving Egwene advice on how to behave around other Aes Sedai and Sitters, not her friends.

 

Then of course right after that comes the part I think you're referring too where she convinces Nynaeve to kiss the ring and call her "mother" and such. Though you totally left out the whole part where Nynaeve is reminded how terrible it was for her when she became wisdom and didn't get the same respect from the Women's circle that raised her. She admits she'd do it for another Amyrlin, and she admits Egwene would be best for the job, and concludes herself (given Egwene's guidance) that she SHOULD be doing it:

 

"And? Would you have done it for another Amyrlin?"

"Not happily."

"But you'd have done it."

"Yes."

"And do you honestly think there is another who would do a better job than I?"

Nynaeve hesitated, then shook her head.

Then why is it so bitter for you to serve the Amyrlin? Not me, Nynaeve, but the station."

Nynaeve's face looked as if she'd drunk something very bitter. "This will • . . not be easy for me."

I ve never known you to avoid a task because it was difficult, Nynaeve." "The station. All right. I'll try." Then you might begin by calling me Mother." Egwene held up a finger

to cut off Nynaeve's objection. "To remind yourself, Nynaeve. It needn't be permanent, at least not in private. But you must begin thinking of me as I Amyrlin."

"All right, all right. You've pricked me with enough thorns. I already feel as if I've been drinking windsatter's draught all day." She hesitated, then added, "Mother." She almost seemed to choke on the word.

Egwene smiled encouragingly.

"I won't treat you the way women did me after I was first named Wisdom," Nynaeve promised. "Light! Odd to be able to feel as they did Well, they were still fools. I'll do better; you'll see it. Mother."

Ah, lovely. I see you too have forgotten something, right in this very paragraph. The phrase 'at least not in private'. And yet that is exactly what Nynaeve is doing. Obeying Egwene as the Amyrlin even in private.

[Leyrann]

Egwene says, in that same first quote, "are we not all fools at some point?". If you think she excludes herself, she says WE.

 

Egwene wants that Nynaeve does not only see her as a friend, but as Amyrlin TOO. She has to obey Egwene, because every Aes Sedai has to. But after she sees Egwene fully as friend AND Amyrlin, Egwene will have no problems with Nynaeve questioning her decisions in private. Maybe not even when they're not in private, but I'm not sure about that. Egwene wants Nynaeve to become like Elayne to Egwene.

[Kahsm]

Almost the entire chap 14 of TOM suggests you are completely wrong. Here's a snippet with a few highlighted parts:

 

Two Wise Ones sat on the floor at the center of the room, amid a forest of columns. Above their light brown skirts and white blouses, their faces were distinctly different. Bair's was wrinkled with age, like leather left to cure in the sun. For all her occasional sternness, smile lines wove from her eyes and mouth.

Amys' face was silky smooth, an effect of being able to channel. Her face was not ageless, but she could have been Aes Sedai for the emotion she showed.

The two had their shawls at their waists, their blouses unlaced. Egwene sat before them but left herself wearing wetlander clothing. Amys raised an eyebrow; was she thinking that Egwene should have changed? Or did she appreciate that Egwene did not imitate something she was not? It was difficult to tell.

"The battle within the White Tower is over," Egwene said.

"The woman Elaida a'Roihan?" Amys asked.

"Taken by the Seanchan," Egwene said. "I have been accepted as Amyr-lin by those who followed her. My position is far from secure—at times, I feel balanced atop a stone that sits balanced atop another stone. But the White Tower is again whole."

Amys clicked her tongue softly. She raised her hand and a striped stole—an Amyrlin's stole—appeared in it. "I suppose you should be wearing this, then."

Egwene let out a soft, slow breath. It was remarkable to her, sometimes, how much stock she put in the opinions of these women. She took the stole, putting it around her shoulders.

Sorilea will dislike this news," Bair said, shaking her head. "She still had a hope that you would leave those fools in the White Tower and return

to us."

"Please take care," Egwene said, summoning herself a cup of tea. "I am not only one of those fools, my friend, but I am their leader. Queen of the fools, you might say."

Bair hesitated. "I have toh."

"Not for speaking the truth," Egwene assured her. "Many of them are fools, but are we not all fools at some point? You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rbiod. In like manner \ cannot abandon those of the White Tower."

So yeah...

 

That's not introspection. Simply showing her POV thoughts isn't self-reflection. She's not second-guessing herself, or wondering if she did the right thing, or chastising herself because she didn't do enough. All she's doing is giving her thoughts on the Aes Sedai and their faults. Not her faults, the faults of the Aes Sedai themselves. It's the same as always; cool self-assurance, with the underlying assertion that she is doing the right thing. This wouldn't be a bad thing if it wasn't present all the time.

 

She wonders how she should have dressed herself to please the WOs, that's exactly her questioning her reasoning for something. She doesn't know if she chose properly, because, as she says in the next bold-ed line, she cares what these women think of her. Maybe that seems small to you, but it's still a direct conflict with your grand assertion that she "never" does it.

 

"I feel balanced atop a stone that sits balanced atop another stone." Means she's not feeling secure in her position if she did feel, "absolutely sure of her own rightness", as you claim, she would feel secure and not as if she could fall at any moment. So that must also be wrong. You might be right that paragraph doesn't actually have the actual self-reflection in it, but it still suggest that she does have them off camera. So you cannot claim she does not.

 

Queen of the fools is, yes, a reflection on the organization, but she is also an Aes Sedai, and the leader. Given that she has bought into much of what the Aes Sedai are and what they stand for, then admitting that they can be foolish suggest much more internal struggles as to how they (and she) should conduct themselves for the world.

 

"You did not abandon me to my failures when you found me walking Tel'aran'rbiod." Is Egwene's example of how she was a fool and the WOs helped her. This led her to rather humbly suggesting that Aes Sedai train with WOs before they are raised, going forward, to try and strengthen them as the WOs had strengthened her. There is plenty of self-admittance and recognition of growth thanks to others here. This whole chapter is rife with Egwene's growth as a character thanks to other people and her recognition of it.

 

And then as for "she expects others to follow her unconditionally". That might be because that's exactly the advice Nynaeve gave her when Egwene (Realizing she needed help) asked for it:

 

"It was a matter of not letting them forget my station. They couldn't be allowed to continue to think of me as a young girl. Establish your authority quickly. Be firm with the women in the Tower, Egwene, because they'll begin by seeing how far they can push you. And once you've let them push you a handspan, it's harder than winter molasses to get back what you've lost."

"All right," Egwene said.

"And don't come up with idle work for them to do," Nynaeve said. They passed out of the Hall of the Tower, strolling through the hallways. "Get them used to you giving orders, but make those orders good ones. Make sure they don't bypass you. I'd guess that it might be easy for them to start looking to the Sitters or the Ajah heads instead of you; women in Emond's Field started going to the Women's Circle instead of me.

"If you discover that the Sitters are making decisions that should have come before the entire Hall, you have to make a big fuss about it. Trust me. They'll grouse that you're making too much noise over small things, but they'll think twice about doing something important without your attention."

Egwene nodded. It was good advice, though—of course—it came colored by Nynaeve's view of the world.

 

And yet when Egwene was made Amyrlin for the first time she begged Nyneave and Elayne not to call her 'Mother'. This passage doesn't even support your argument, it's just Nyneave giving Egwene advice on how to behave around other Aes Sedai and Sitters, not her friends.

 

In private she did, originally. Then Nynaeve tried to ignore Egwene and gave all signs she had no intention of ever calling her mother or kissing her ring even in public. Notice Egwene never talked to Elayne about calling her mother in private, because Elayne would hold to it when necessary. Nynaeve was not going to. Which tied this into the next part...

 

Then of course right after that comes the part I think you're referring too where she convinces Nynaeve to kiss the ring and call her "mother" and such. Though you totally left out the whole part where Nynaeve is reminded how terrible it was for her when she became wisdom and didn't get the same respect from the Women's circle that raised her. She admits she'd do it for another Amyrlin, and she admits Egwene would be best for the job, and concludes herself (given Egwene's guidance) that she SHOULD be doing it:

 

"And? Would you have done it for another Amyrlin?"

"Not happily."

"But you'd have done it."

"Yes."

"And do you honestly think there is another who would do a better job than I?"

Nynaeve hesitated, then shook her head.

Then why is it so bitter for you to serve the Amyrlin? Not me, Nynaeve, but the station."

Nynaeve's face looked as if she'd drunk something very bitter. "This will • . . not be easy for me."

I ve never known you to avoid a task because it was difficult, Nynaeve." "The station. All right. I'll try." Then you might begin by calling me Mother." Egwene held up a finger

to cut off Nynaeve's objection. "To remind yourself, Nynaeve. It needn't be permanent, at least not in private. But you must begin thinking of me as I Amyrlin."

"All right, all right. You've pricked me with enough thorns. I already feel as if I've been drinking windsatter's draught all day." She hesitated, then added, "Mother." She almost seemed to choke on the word.

Egwene smiled encouragingly.

"I won't treat you the way women did me after I was first named Wisdom," Nynaeve promised. "Light! Odd to be able to feel as they did Well, they were still fools. I'll do better; you'll see it. Mother."

Ah, lovely. I see you too have forgotten something, right in this very paragraph. The phrase 'at least not in private'. And yet that is exactly what Nynaeve is doing. Obeying Egwene as the Amyrlin even in private.

 

Right because of the highlighted part... "It needn't be permanent." That's exactly why I highlighted it. Egwene tells Nynaeve to call her mother in private because she needs to practice thinking of her like the Amyrling seat. The two lines we quote together suggest that once Nynaeve gets used to the idea then it will likely be dropped when they are in private.

 

It's really just like how Moir and Siuan were. I'm sure they had similar issues, but Moir is pretty dedicated to Siuan-as-amyrlin. Nynaeve is the one who's being pigheaded and wrong here, and she even admits it. The core of my argument on this point is that despite how much you want to fault Egwene, all she does is point out the situation. Nynaeve herself comes to the conclusion that she should be calling Egwene mother. And the last line is actually quite touching, how she insists she'll do better for Egwene than the Woman's Circle did for her.

[Kahsm]

Alright, so when the last Egwene thread closed Himiko and I continued our conversations in PMs, and now that Luckers has opened it anew, I thought I'd post our conversation. I did get permission from Himiko first as per the CoC. Anyone's welcome to comment. My first PM is more of a rant, but the subsequent messages were more civil.

 

Since bloody Luckers locked the thread... [i take that back, much love <3! ;)]

 

Re: Best at everything. First, I don't see that. [Egwene is] OP strong (by birth) and a scrapper (by necessity). She has next to zero skill with healing. So basically, if Nyn is the healer, it makes sense Eggs is the fighter. However, in the "Is the Amyrlin more important than the Dragon?" thread ALL the same people spewing Egwene hate in this thread were arguing how Nynaeve is a better channeling fighter than Egwene too. And you know it's simply because she's Egwene, and therefore can be given no credit for anything.

 

You can claim she's written to look better, but as soon as I propose she might actually be better at something, Oh no they won't let that happen! There are even 'theories' that she's been compelled by the forsaken, as if Egwene is acting similar to Suroth, or Gabriel in how she's "sowing chaos". Give me a break.

 

There's nothing to say she's some amazing tower lore goddess either. All she needs to do is study the narrow topics she's currently working on. Look up laws regarding starting wars, done. Look up laws regarding becoming Amyrlin and Aes Sedai, done. I mean, all she needs to do is read 1 paragraph people have forgotten from the dustiest book and she can irk out a flashy political victory.

 

Futhermore, as I have pointed out many times, she is not written as if she's LTT's equal as a general either. All she does is blast some seanchan out of the sky and after she managed to coral a handful of tower newbies. That's totally believable given the dispassionate calm she has learned through all her beatings and detached purposefulness.

 

I mean what made Perrin so good with an axe? he never practices. Oh but there I go comparing other's faults. They are the _same_ faults. People will complain about anything regarding Egwene, but the same faults are overlooked in other characters.

 

Just look at Gawyn who, as far as I could tell, is very much written to be a sword god now. And Sanderson basically said 'nah he was just lucky'. So we've seen with Gawyn that when there's nearly conclusive evidence, it's apparently not necessarily true, but then when there's very little evidence with Egwene, why instantly jump to claiming it must be more than what it is? She's good at research, and she's good with the OP. her dispassionate calm makes her a good politician.

 

Why don't people call her out? Well first of all Elayne did, and Egwene self reflected that she WAS being a [censored for public consumption]. Then there's the Wise Ones. And after that she's basically the most powerful person around her. Aes Sedai respect OP strength almost before anything sensible, so they aren't going to call her out, who then would? Nynaeve is unfortunate that she hangs out with the more powerful and talented of the channelers. But that's not Egwene's fault.

 

Yes she's had some big victories, but she does work hard, she is a talented channeler, and she has the stuff to be a cool Aes Sedai like Moir, one who can threaten to kill you if you risk the mission one day, then dance with you the next day. But lets all hate her for minor things you have to twist into being taken negatively and other things that plague various other characters, some of which are the most loved! Makes ZERO sense.

 

My theory: Egwene being a b****h to Nynaeve in TDR made people hate her, and they can't see past that. Everything is coloured by those glasses now, that's why there are other 'interpretations'. Interpretations, which often (not always) make zero sense.

 

- Like submit to the tower, which never happened. It was a rather pleasant conversation FFS.

- Egwene being less than human for not crying over Cairhien, which she easily explains as not "wanting" to think about it, which explicitly means she does indeed care.

- Egwene 'fighting against the pattern' which is utter crap. As if the Dragon can make no wrong decisions and should be blindly followed in every decision he makes. Oh Nynaeve stopped him from destroying the borderland army, but lets forget about that and trash Egwene for her opposition

 

There are some, you included, who have had rational reasons for disliking her, and not letting it colour her every line of dialoage. And I rarely argue that someone SHOULD like Egwene (if ever). I simply try to cool, if not eradicate the ridiculousness many people attribute to her various actions or lines.

[Kahsm]

Hey there!

 

Will try and reply to this in more detail in the next couple of days, as I'm very sleepy atm:

 

I do wonder if the Halima- Compulsion theory is to do with the fact that a lot of people want to see the Forsaken do something serious to the main characters, as, whilst they have caused chaos "off screen", as it were, a lot of board members have complained that they don't sense much risk towards the main characters from what are supposed to be the main channeling villains of the series. In Egwene's case, Halima has easy access to her, Egwene has suspicious headaches, and, as was pointed out to me recently, Rand's angstsplosion of Natrin's Barrow wouldn't have been enough to wipe out the Compulsion weaves. Some suggest that because Egwene is so very adamant that Rand's idea is wrong, and so quick to dismiss those who suggest otherwise, it could be a sign of Halima's influence showing through. I don't disagree that some use it as an excuse to criticise Egwene, personally, I would like to see it as I think it would actually show the Forsaken having an effect on the heroes other than "Well, we tried to kill them. And then we failed" XD But we'll see.

 

As for your point about people's early views influencing their later perception of the characters- I agree, to a certain extent. If the Nynave/ Egwene scenes in TFoH didn't exist, and if Egwene hadn't behaved as she did in TDR, I'd almost certainly feel much more neutral towards her as a character. But I think this is the case with every fictional character, that they are coloured, to some extent, by the reader's earlier impressions of them. Presumably you see something in Egwene's character that you liked - perhaps her eagerness to learn, and willingness to move on from her old life, unlike, say, Perrin. That you like this trait may make you more likely to overlook her less positive actions, because you see her as having positive character traits overall? I mean, this isn't always the case, plenty of people change their opinions on characters, and certainly neither opinion is invalid, it depends on the individual reading it- I mean, let's be honest, I reckon we're both pretty reasonable people, and we're unlikely to ever change each other's mind on this topic. Some people dislike Faile because of her earlier treatment of Perrin (some of which did suck), some people dislike Rand because of the list, etc (I have to say, I've never been as keen on him since). In real life, if I've had bad experiences with someone, it takes me a while to get around to liking them again, and if I get on really well with someone, I'm much more likely to excuse some of their more negative behaviour.

 

I should add that I was never a big fan of Moiraine when she was around, either. She kind of made up for it with her "Made of purest kickarse" scene, but yeah- don't know if its relevant, but I've noticed there seems to be at least a little correlation between liking Egwene and liking Moiraine. Though there are some differences, some see Moiraine as acting in the world's interests rather than the WT's, indeed, she keeps her activities secret, where as Egwene has sort of become the Tower's leading force, the personification of AS, etc, an organisation disliked by several readers.

 

As far as the being too talented or not goes- I don't know. Perhaps you're right, and she simply got lucky in what she studied. I don't like that all other AS are made to look stupid in comparison, not seeming to know anything that Egwene does, or be able to function well without her. Perhaps this is the cause of my ire, perhaps if other AS were acting like intelligent, educated women that they are, and Egwene was still beating them, maybe I'd have more respect for her hard work ethic and intelligence. As it is, it gives off the impression that either 99% of the AS are chronically dense, or Egwene, in less than 2 years, has managed to learn such huge amounts, that she makes them look this way by comparison, neither of which seems realistic to me. Also, Egwene is not just good in battle, as compared to Nynaeve being good in healing, she's good at Dreamwalking, politics, history, learning the ways of Aiel, etc. It just never read as realistic to me. I mean, Rand is the ultimate example of this, but at least there's an attempted excuse in the form of him being ta'veren, and having the memories of LTT, thus access to knowing huge amounts of forgotten weaves and information- and, of course, knowing the mistakes that LTT made. Similarly, Matt becomes very lucky and great at being a general overnight, but at least there's explanation given. Perrin's probably the least guilty, since a lot of his "being a good leader" comes from his wife, who has been trained in such matters. However, obviously other people see it differently, fair enough.

 

Anyway, getting a bit rambly now, good night! Will hopefully try and waffle less next time, bad habit, I'm afraid XD

[Kahsm]

I see it as the Aes Sedai looked like fools. Not that Egwene did something spectacular. But I think making those sheltered women look like fools isn't that hard and quite realistic. It relates to what Cadsuane says about channeling. She talks about how Aes Sedai never experiment, and while it's dangerous, you can safely reason new things out if you're even slightly inventive. She does this, but over hundreds of years it seems most Aes Sedai don't.

 

They are just not setup to change or even try rocking the boat. So someone with a fresh perspective, someone untainted by actually holding the shawl, has fresh eyes and will see situations differently. Even Siuan had a little of it, stretching her powers to cover for herself and Moir, and she was raised young.

 

I also have a theory that all the "good" or "smart" Aes Sedai don't hang out in the tower. Cads was out hunting men, Moir was out chasing rumors, The twins were out writing the history of the world in some hut in Arafel. Seems it's the ones who like the easy life who actually hang around the tower. Which, if true, would just make it even easier for Eggs.

 

And just a note on Perrin, I wasn't really commenting on his leadership skills, it's his axe fighting skills that make no sense. Lan shows him a bit in TEotW, and then all he does is talk about how much he hates the thing but chops down whitecloaks without issue... afaik wolves don't have secret affinity to axes.

 

Yeah, Perrin's affinity to axes does seem a bit odd, its true. And Rand's blademaster-skills always seemed to show up far too easily. I mean, I understand he's in good physical shape, he trained with Lan, who IS one of the best, but it still seemed jarring to me- I can understand him being awesome when he's full of LTT's memories, but his skills came so early in the series. Its not just Egwene where this trait annoys me, its just that it seems to happen a lot with her- possibly because she has a wide range of interest, and RJ made things easy for his characters. On a side note, this is why it always surprises me when Egwene-fans bring out Nynaeve as an example of another character for whom things come easy to- no offence, you've actually brought out other examples, but I have noticed that Nynaeve is held up more often than most other characters- of all the people to pick as a comparison, why pick the woman who has a massive channeling block for half the series (over half in terms of the series timeline, am I correct in thinking?), who most of the other AS don't see as a full sister after Egwene raises her, and who's husband has a mighty deathwish for... well, all the time??

 

OK, after that slightly off topic rant: You make some good points about WT AS being more sheltered. I still don't think it accounts for things like Egwene being asked for advice on subjects she shouldn't be expected to know anything about, and I do think that women in the tower most of the time should have less of an excuse not to know their tower history and law, since they're in the perfect place to read up on it, but it would, at least, explain why they acted so dense. I guess the test will be if Egwene clashes with any of the more unconventional AS, and how its written. If, for example, she and Cadsuane took issue with one another, and it came across like the scenes in TGS, I'd probably just start tearing my hair out XD Still, we may never find that out, depending on how things go in the final book.

 

Only reason I hold up Nynaeve is because she has a supposed "talent" for learning things instantly, and so people seem to accept that. But they won't accept Egwene learning quickly because there's no explicit reason given.

 

And really, learning fast could simply be because the timeline in WOT is short, and all the main characters are young and ignorant and they all have a lot to learn to be badass (and actually entertaining) in their respective fields. While some have excuses for their successes, in some areas, most have areas where those excuses don't apply and they still learn quickly. Egwene doesn't really have any excuses so it may be more obvious in her. Most of her skills in whatever area are good 'ol fashioned hard work. And while her success may be unrealistic compared to real life, there are lots of examples of other characters in WOT learning things as fast as Egwene does. Just the way the universe seems to work, at least for our heroes.

 

And if Cads acts as all the other 4th and 5th tier Aes Sedai characters do towards Egwene, I'll have just as big a problem with that as you I'm sure. Though I'd take it out on the author.

 

Oh, yeah, it would definitely be an issue I have with the author- to be fair, Egwene being good at so much isn't why I dislike her as a "person", its just something that annoys me when I'm reading her sections.

 

Fin

[AquilaInfernus]

I've come to notice that a lot of people seem to have a problem with the learning aspect of Egwene's character. She likes to learn, and has good political instincts (Moiraine comments on it in TDR). I have witnessed, both here and in real life, that a lot of people are disbelieving of those who have a talent for learning (Not Nyneave's Talent, which appears subconscious, but a general willingness, desire and curiosity that isn't sated by conventional education). Often such people show above average competence in diverse fields of enquiry, and quite frequently there is little in the way of public evidence to justify anything but disbelief.

 

In Egwene's case, we know Siuan has been instructing her, she has Wise One training and is willing to take risks. I think a lot of the disbelief stems from the overlooking of Siuan's influence. The woman walked a knife edge since Moiraine told her about Rand way back at the end of EotW, and suffered the slip when she was deposed. Egwene does the same with the walking embodiment of the consequences of failing sitting in front of her everyday. Does no one remember the constant conversations about previous Amyrlins the two seem to have while with the Salidar AS? That is Siuan cramming 10 years of Leadership into 3-6 months. The sheltered life of Tower Aes Sedai also helps, but how else do you show the benefits of Wise One training, as RJ wants it to be, without making them fools in Egwene's presence?

[Kahsm]

Here's some more non existent introspection from everyone's favourite Amyrlin.

 

I should be dead, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins, she'd have been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from Tel'aran'rhiod. She'd never have killed Mesaana.

Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Here's some more non existent introspection from everyone's favourite Amyrlin.

 

I should be dead, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins, she'd have been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from Tel'aran'rhiod. She'd never have killed Mesaana.

Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating.

 

Either I've missed something, or all of your quotes come from ToM, in which a subtle change in Egwene's character happened IMHO. She is more introspective and self-critical. It seems to me it is Brandon's addition, because TGS's Egwene was almost all RJ's and she was totally different, absolutely dominated by her "perfect Amyrlin" persona. RJ even made her give advice on warders to some old Aes Sedai which was beyond ridiculous. I wonder if Brandon's take on Egwene was influenced by her perception by the readers, or maybe more by his own feelings as a long-time fan.

[Lisa Campbell]

I think it was a case of Egwene's experience vs/ preconceived amyrlyn/supierior knowledge passed down by Suian (hold fire, sputwwrrwa, pfftt).

[Suttree]

because TGS's Egwene was almost all RJ's

 

Do you have a quote on that? Would like to check it out...

[randsc]

Brandon just said on the reddit thing that in TGS, RJ wrote a great deal of Egwene, and very little of Perrin or Rand.

[Suttree]

Brandon just said on the reddit thing that in TGS, RJ wrote a great deal of Egwene, and very little of Perrin or Rand.

 

Ahhh thanks Randsc...

[Leyrann]

Problem is, she made no mistakes in, say KoD and TGS. Or can you tell me one? Also, did she make mistakes earlier (read: when she became Amyrlin or later)? I'm not very interested in before she became Amyrlin, because she learned most of what she knows from the world from the WO and Siuan, so she should also made far less mistakes after that.

[Kahsm]

Here's some more non existent introspection from everyone's favourite Amyrlin.

 

I should be dead, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins, she'd have been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from Tel'aran'rhiod. She'd never have killed Mesaana.

Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating.

 

Either I've missed something, or all of your quotes come from ToM, in which a subtle change in Egwene's character happened IMHO. She is more introspective and self-critical. It seems to me it is Brandon's addition, because TGS's Egwene was almost all RJ's and she was totally different, absolutely dominated by her "perfect Amyrlin" persona. RJ even made her give advice on warders to some old Aes Sedai which was beyond ridiculous. I wonder if Brandon's take on Egwene was influenced by her perception by the readers, or maybe more by his own feelings as a long-time fan.

 

When it is is irrelevant given the language in the hate posts is that she "never" does these things. Also, there are plenty from before she's amyrlin too, I have quoted her first meeting with Avi as an example in the past.

 

There is another in TSR when she notes feeling silly for having jealously hogged the dream ter'angreal because at one point she wished Elayne or Nyn could go with her but they were too untrained at that point since she never gave them a chance to try it before she felt she needed the assistance searching for the BA in Tanchico.

[randsc]

I don't think the argument is that she is "never" introspective. "Very seldom" for sure, and most importantly, "Very little when compared with other characters."

 

As for the change with Sanderson writing her, it's real. He writes in the reddit convo that Jordan had planned the Elaida dinner sequence as a single event, and that he (BS) changed it because he didn't feel the character had earned that. This gives me some degree of hope for the future.

[Kahsm]

I don't think the argument is that she is "never" introspective. "Very seldom" for sure, and most importantly, "Very little when compared with other characters."

 

As for the change with Sanderson writing her, it's real. He writes in the reddit convo that Jordan had planned the Elaida dinner sequence as a single event, and that he (BS) changed it because he didn't feel the character had earned that. This gives me some degree of hope for the future.

 

Ahh, conveniently very difficult to prove. At least we're starting to get to the real root of your problem with Egwene, that you think RJ wrote her poorly.

 

Though I think it's rather foolish to assume RJs notes would have been final in how a book by him would have turned out. Particularly since in the same quote you're referring to Brandon says Harriet told him that it wouldn't have been.

 

And you twist words like an Aes Sedai. Making it sound like Egwene's failing somehow that RJ was going to give her something she didn't work for lol. Here's the quote in context.

 

Brandon: Because of the nature of RJ's notes and writing process, there are a lot of things I can (and was told I should) change. Harriet didn't say specifically "Change this." She told me "Jim (RJ) would not have done it exactly like this. You do what you think is best for the story first--that is your primary charge. Don't feel completely beholden to his notes, but respect his story."

 

That's kind of how I've done it. If the notes say something that I feel needs to change, I change it, but try to be respectful. An example is Egwene's dinner with Elaida. RJ had this planned as a single event. I split it into two chapters, separated by further discovery by Egwene and growth to earn the second half of the dinner.

 

There are many things like that. Places where RJ said "I'm going to do this, or maybe I'll do this, or maybe neither." I choose what fits for the story. It's usually one of the two, sometimes neither one works. I can be more specific once the last book is out.

 

That said, I wasn't particularly hip on writing Cadsuane spanking Semirhage. There was no good reason to change it, though. Jim had outlined the scene, and it was in line with the characters.

 

Apparently Brandon feels he's keeping with the character. And I agree. He also notes he didn't change things that worked that he didn't really like, so I doubt that was the motivation behind the Egwene change.

[randsc]

Dude, seriously, lighten up.

[Dewairah]

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

[Goldstar]

See, people mention her insistence/obsession, and yet it seems no one thinks of the possibility of compulsion.

[Sharaman]

There's been plenty of debate about whether Halima did Compel Egwene. The consensus is probably not because Halima's own PoV suggests she was merely interfering with Egwene's Dreams. No other Forsaken has possibly Compelled Egwene - Mesaana was the only other one close enough and she never tried.

[Dewairah]

If she has been compelled then that is fine and I'll subtract all my comments - I just don't think I've read anything definitive to suggest it has ever happened

[Leyrann]

Dude, seriously, lighten up.

 

You mean "I can't find anything to tell you she is arrogant, but I will not stop hating her"?

 

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

She had no control over that Aes Sedai, and what they did to him. And Rand himself knows too that Egwene is different from most Aes Sedai. So I don't see a problem. By the way, can you quote the last time she thinks of him needing her advice, except about breaking the seals (because I'm sure that he must NOT do that. I can't find it now, but Terez has written a pretty awesome, backed up well, theory about it on Theoryland. Maybe she can link you (if she sees this thread)?)?

[Suttree]

That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

[BMahle]

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Agreed! That regularly irritates me. How can she still think the White Tower is the end-all, be-all for a guiding force in the world when Aes Sedai have wronged Rand so many times. It seems like she should just take a step back and view the world from someone else's POV. I actually don't dislike Egwene. I think that a lot of the negative emotions stem from her seeming disloyalty toward her friends. She puts this organization in front of the individual, which is a good quality in a leader, but not an overly likeable or relatable one. I personally prefer a character who will at least consider damning the world for the people she loves (Nynaeve), but Egwene is almost turning into the female Galad. Respectable, great leader...not that personable. I think she works for what she is--the Amyrlin. Not the change-the-world and shake things up character that Nynaeve and Rand types represent, but a strong leader and capable of bringing a falling organization together.