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Red2111

[Spoiler Thread] GRRM's Dance with Dragons

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We still don't know who Jon's parents were. The one reference in aDWD to possible infidelity by Ned Stark was with Ashara Dayne, and her stillborn daughter. That would be so very Ned - feel guilty about an affair you had, but the child you raise and claim as your bastard isn't actually yours.

 

I'm increasingly convinced that Ned isn't the father of Ashara's child.

 

Consider that Barristan, in his ADWD POVs, thinks about 'Stark' fathering Ashara's child and is very angry about his dishonour and infidelity. Yet a few chapters earlier he's telling Daenerys about how he was glad not to be in a position of power when Eddard was executed and lit a candle to his memory in the Great Sept and how Eddard was a good guy who argued against the assassination attempt on Daenerys. Plus Barristan got on really well with Eddard throughout AGoT. It seems self-contradictary.

 

Until you revisit the story Jojen and Meera tell Bran in ASoS about the Harrenhal tourney, and you get to the bit where Eddard wanted to dance with Ashara but wasn't brave enough to ask her, so Brandon went off and talked to her by himself. And of course we have a new character in ADWD who spends half the book telling Theon that Brandon was a much nastier piece of work then we thought previously.

 

So, it seems persuasive to me that Brandon got Ashara pregnant (whether by seducing her and then leaving her, or outright sexual assault. though I suspect in the case of the latter being public knowledge Barristan would have likely taken Brandon's head off, regardless of anyone's status), she went off and had a stillborn daughter and the combination of that and the knowledge of her brother's death was enough to send her over the edge (literally, in this case). This explains why Barristan simultaneously detests 'Stark' whilst seeming to quite like Eddard.

 

As for Jon's parentage, we find out in ADWD that Elia and Rhaegar could not have a third child because it would kill her. Since we know Rhaegar was crazy about the PWWP prophecy, that meant he NEEDED to find a second wife to have a child with to complete the conditions necessary for the prophecy to unfold. Bran's vision of Lyanna, showing her as someone who could outfight Benjen (the future First Ranger of the Night's Watch), seems to radically increase the likelihood of her being the Knight of the Smiling Tree from Jojen's story, and we know from the story that Rhaegar went in search of the Knight, allegedly never found 'him' but then gave Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty after winning the tourney. So ADWD, to me, points firmly in the direction of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

Edited by Werthead

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Hmm. I always thought that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Howland Reed but Lyanna makes sense too (and like you say maybe even more now that we know her prowess with arms). When I first read the scene with Jon getting stabbed, I was as pissed as I have been at an author since the Red Wedding. Then I went to Westeros and saw people theorizing about salt and smoke and felt kinda hollow because Jon coming back seems kinda lame to me. Then again, we have seen similar things. Jon coming back to life better be done very well. If not it will be really lame.

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Darwin award goes to Quentyn.

 

We need a rep button

 

I actually kinda liked Quentyn. Was sad to see him go.

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There seem to be several schools of thought:

 

1) Jon comes back as the promised saviour, he defeats the Others, becomes King, marries Daenerys and everything is sweetness and light. This seems highly unlikely.

 

2) Jon comes back as the promised saviour but the prophecy turns out to be a bunch of dingo's kidneys, Jon turns evil, becomes the Night's King, destroys the Wall and has to be defeated by Daenerys. This being GRRM, this seems more in keeping with how things are going, plus it gives the Others' side of the story a POV, something they need sooner rather than later now.

 

3) Jon is dead, but his personality is warged into Ghost's and at some future point he is restored in another body and pursues either 1) or 2) above. However, he might sit out Book 6 in Ghost's body and have no more POV chapters until Book 7.

 

I kind of favour the villain option, since it throws all the boring "Jon and Dany team up and save Westeros," theories from over the years right out the window :)

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I would hate to see Jon end as a villain. Some insight into the Others would be nice and I'm not so sure things are as black and white as many would like (R'hllor and Azor Ahai both seem kinda not right to me), but Jon ending a villain would be horrible imo.

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I'd actually kinda dig Jon as a false messiah. I used to speculate about Bran going this route but, with the reveal of Bloodraven and the Children, I'm less inclined to believe this now. Unless all the myths of the past, of the Children fighting the Others, are false (not impossible considering Sam's musing on the very possibility of the histories being wrong).

 

I <3 Evil Jon.

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okay, what sort of idiot do you have to be to think you cane tame a Dragon with a whip?? and your logic comes from "Danny did it, so i can to". yes i agree, Darwins award goes to the Prince of Dorne *shakes head* when he comes on screen next year on HBO i'm just gonna look at him and go "dumb ass"

 

i had to laugh at the last bit where he realizes Rhegal has put him on fire and he goes "Oh" and then starts to scream. i liked Frog, until he did this; now i'm glad that he did die before he got the chance to breed *shakes head*

 

 

 

with Jon, i knew it was comming via the spoilers on here ... but when i got to the chapter i have to say it took me by surprise because really there was no direct build up and it happened so fast. i did tear up for him, but given what we learn about Wargs in the Prolouge and about the priests who worship R'hllor i certiantly don't think John is dead.

 

that he's says ghosts name makes me think his soul jumped into ghosts body. i have to wonder if the Red lady will resurrect John the same way Cat and that other dude were resurrected.

 

 

as for an evil Jon ... i'd like that, but at the same time i'm not sure i would. i just don't think Jon would make a very good bad guy; unless his personality does a total 180 when he comes back. i do hope that Ghost is able toescape alive seeing as he's locked in Johns room right now and i hope that ghost/jon gets to tear out Ramsey Snows throat. the bastard of bolton is an evil, vile creature if i've ever read one and i still can't wait for his death.

 

his claiming to have killed Stannis is imo a lie, Reek & Jeyne were with Stannis, so the fact that Bolton claims to not have his bride or Reek, plus makes no mention of Asha says to me that he only thinks he's killed Stannis.

 

 

 

as for a PoV of the Others, i also think it's about time we got one of those as well. i'm thinknig that we could get that from Coldhands though; so no need for John to turn into a White Walker *nods*

 

 

i'm still not done with the book yet, i'm back to Danny's PoV then i think it's the Epilouge. so it's alot to digest for sure, and i'm sad it's over but i can't wait for the next book.

 

 

all & all i found Danny & Jon's PoV's to be the hardest to get through in this book. mostly because it felt like all Martin was doin was positioning them for the next book rather than furthering their plot lines. i do agree that this book lacked major editing, and had alot of repetiveness.

 

for instance you have Danny thinking to herself, but it says "she thought to himself" i had tochuckle at that. you know if i can spot grammer and spelling mistakes it's pretty bad :laugh:

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There seem to be several schools of thought:

 

1) Jon comes back as the promised saviour, he defeats the Others, becomes King, marries Daenerys and everything is sweetness and light. This seems highly unlikely.

 

2) Jon comes back as the promised saviour but the prophecy turns out to be a bunch of dingo's kidneys, Jon turns evil, becomes the Night's King, destroys the Wall and has to be defeated by Daenerys. This being GRRM, this seems more in keeping with how things are going, plus it gives the Others' side of the story a POV, something they need sooner rather than later now.

 

3) Jon is dead, but his personality is warged into Ghost's and at some future point he is restored in another body and pursues either 1) or 2) above. However, he might sit out Book 6 in Ghost's body and have no more POV chapters until Book 7.

 

I kind of favour the villain option, since it throws all the boring "Jon and Dany team up and save Westeros," theories from over the years right out the window :)

 

There is also

 

4. Jon is healed of his injuries by a combination of luck and Melissandre.

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Aegon isn't dead. WHO SAW THAT COMING!?... I know I didn't. My dad didn't. I don't think GRRM saw it coming up until HBO handed him a check saying, "Add some young noble heartthrob for the girls to enjoy."

 

Are you kidding? The theory has been around for years. I really think the people that make claims such as this aren't understanding even a quarter of what is actually going on in his books.

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Too start off, I'm not well versed in SoIaF lore, however after reading the last 100 pages I just have to get something out there.

 

First and foremost, Jon has been my favorite character since the death of Eddard, mainly because they are very similar. I've read a lot of speculation concerning his rebirth, however is death is somewhat ambiguous. He was surrounded by wildlings who I believe would have defended him; immediately Leathers (and Wun Wun), and then the somewhat drunk Tormund and his horde of wildlings who moments earlier declared support for Jon and were reported as outnumbering the brothers by as much as 5 to 1, including those who would remain loyal to Jon and would likely fight alongside the wildlings if it came down to it.

As far as his survival is concerned, if Moqorro (sp?) Could heal a festering wound on a boat, what is to stop Melisandre from healing Jon on the Wall, where she is significantly stronger? I mean hell, Loras isn't dead yet, and that's just rediculous.

I do subscribe to the belief that he is AA reborn. Sacrifice was made out to be a key factor in the saga of AA (stabbing his wife and all), and throughout DwD we see Jon sacrifice something quite different, although no less meaningful. He gives up his friends, his wolf due to his worries concerning the wildling skinchanger and his boar, and he gives up his standing among his brothers by flooding the realm with wildlings; his final act even goes as far as to sacrifice his honor by breaking his vows and waging war against Ramsay Snow with a wildling army.

That's probably enough on Jon (he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, Ned claimed him to keep Robert from killing him along with the other Dragons), in closing, if he gets reborn into Ghost I'll be pissed. I can't stop! My favorite line in the book was when Jon coldly asked Bowen Marsh what would happen if the wildlings at Hardhome died, it was just awesome.

 

That went on a little longer than I would have liked, but it was necessary, I was pretty angry when he died.

 

As far as the bodies thrown over the walls of Mereen are concerned, while I'm 100% certain they are victims of the pale mare, I really hope it was Daario, I hate his character almost as much as I like Jon.

 

As cool as Bran is, I would be somewhat annoyed if he is confined to that cave for the remaining two books. There are a number of ways GRRM could get around that, I hope he chooses to employ one. And I really like Davos, but I am confused with how Rickon is going to be incorporated into the story. He is still very very young, and using him as a figurehead for the North would be akin to having a boy king on the Iron Throne.

 

Speaking of other boy kings, Tommen won't last much longer. Cersei has never been entirely sane, but now after her humiliating walk through Kings Landing, she'll either be cimpletely inactive and allow the Tyrells to take control (unlikely), or go completely off her rocker and ruin everything until she's killed (maybe by jaime if he escapes Catelyn?)

 

As far as Aegon is concerned, I'm pretty happy with that. It's good to know where Varys stands, and I like Jon Connington. I figured that all the true knights were gone with the days of Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower and such (I haven't forgotten Barristan Selmy either), however Connington seems like a swell fella. Aegon has yet to prove himself, but I'm not a huge fan of Dany's inactivity, so consider this an open relationship.

 

People seem to not like Quentyn, and I don't quite get why. He was young and stupid, and died for it, but I liked Gerris significantly less. Arch, however, is awesome. I approve of anyone who Barristan likes.

 

I'm pretty sure Coldhands could be Benjen, it seems odd that there was never any real closure, and who else could it be?

 

There is no way Stannis is dead. How on earth did it go from an envoy from the iron bank to war and death in no seconds flat? I don't buy it.

 

That dragged on, but not as much as these next few years will..

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i finally finished the book :sad: i have to say, i loved the ending. totally didn't see that one comming!!!

 

Turney, i agree with most of what you've said honestly. with Bran though, it depends on how his power developes. it seems like he may become the "old gods" in the sense of how the man/tree is an old god. i'm thinking the plot line here has to do with the un-named "other" which mean Bran is likely to be the main villian if your on R'hllor's side. Bran actually annoys me, so i was fine wit him getting stuck in a cave for the entire book :laugh:

 

with Cersie, i have to agree that she's likely to go even more insane with he uncle being killed. likely she'll blame the Imo like Varys suggests which should snap her out of this meek act. and yes, i believe all this "i'll act meek" is an act and her just waiting until her trial is over before becoming the class A psycho that we all love to hate. i do hope Jamie kills her, just because i know how much it will destroy her. though Tyrions plans for her seem poetic in a way lmao. yes if you can't tell i'm a major Cersie hater.

 

as for eogon, if the Spider says its realy him, i'm inclined to believe him on this. little finger & Varys are the only two characters that know whats going on and that you have a good chance of not having had them hoodwinked by another character. so when they say "So & So is alive" i'm taking their word for truth. it's been said before, but i agree. the Spider had no reason to lie to a dead man. peronslaly i think these two characters are the two that Martin uses to speak through and set rumors striaght with. every author has one; for RJ it is Moraine, for JKR it was Hermy & DD, for Tolkien it was Gandolf. i believe for Martin it's Littlefinger and the Spider and more so the Spider.

 

 

Aegon isn't dead. WHO SAW THAT COMING!?... I know I didn't. My dad didn't. I don't think GRRM saw it coming up until HBO handed him a check saying, "Add some young noble heartthrob for the girls to enjoy."

 

Are you kidding? The theory has been around for years. I really think the people that make claims such as this aren't understanding even a quarter of what is actually going on in his books.

 

if you go by just canon and not fan sites (like me for instance, i don't frequent an ASoF&I fan site) this did come as a shock and unexpected. your reaction honestly is like telling a casual reader who goes "OMG, Grendal killed Asmo! didn't see that comming" that "Well duh, people have only been saying that since Asmo was killed"

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Thing I don't get is why Varys is supporting/plotting for the Targaryens to reclaim the throne? I mean what does it matter to him. He was one of the few people who wasn't punished or faced any consequences for working for Aerys when Robert took the throne. In fact it was just business as usual for him. So what would he have to gain? Also why on earth didn't he try to contact Viserys or later Dany. I know Ilyrio is working for him but still Its seems odd he wouldn't reveal his plans or that he was helping them even if he kept it secret who he was.

 

I'm also not sure about this whole Aegon thing, swapping babies. Surely the mother would notice unless you left it to the last minute. And why did he keep Aegon and Viserys and Dany apart from each other?

 

Also why if he is helping the Targaryens would he send that assassin after Dany in the first book? He couldn't have known Jorah would foil the plan and it's hardly a great way to endear yourself to the woman who you want to be the future queen.

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Thing I don't get is why Varys is supporting/plotting for the Targaryens to reclaim the throne? I mean what does it matter to him.

 

maybe because he see's a Targ rule as being the best option for the realm. he always claims that he serves the realm, but honestly i've always questioned that statement.

 

 

He was one of the few people who wasn't punished or faced any consequences for working for Aerys when Robert took the throne. In fact it was just business as usual for him. So what would he have to gain?

 

same thing that ilryio has to gain i suppose ... that the Targ's will remember them when they regain rule and give them alot of reward for it. being that he's played for all sides, he stands to gain no matter who takes the throne reguardless of who he seems to be pushing harder for

 

 

Also why on earth didn't he try to contact Viserys or later Dany. I know Ilyrio is working for him but still Its seems odd he wouldn't reveal his plans or that he was helping them even if he kept it secret who he was.

 

fear of Robert finding out and not wanting to put all his eggs in one basket?? i unno. maybe he didn't contact ilyrio becuase dude already had orders on what to do concerning Dany & Viserys.

 

 

I'm also not sure about this whole Aegon thing, swapping babies. Surely the mother would notice unless you left it to the last minute. And why did he keep Aegon and Viserys and Dany apart from each other?

 

likely the mom knew her life was at an end and saw it as the best chance for her son to survive. if i was in her shoes, i'd have takent he hance too and swapped my kid while pretending it was still my child until my dieing breath.

 

 

Also why if he is helping the Targaryens would he send that assassin after Dany in the first book? He couldn't have known Jorah would foil the plan and it's hardly a great way to endear yourself to the woman who you want to be the future queen.

 

my guess is that he did know jorah was fed up with turning spy on Danny and guessed at the knights feelings for Dany and wouldn't let her be killed. the spider has mice & birds everywhere, so it's easy enough to assume one of them reported how fond Jorah had become of Danny, even standing up to Visery for her.

 

as for the assassin, again thsi would be part of him not putting all his eggs in one basket. at this point Robert was still alive and as far as we know he had no intention of killing Robert. also, i'm guessing it was part act as well, tryign to keep up the facade so Robert didn't suspect him.

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not to mention, if Aegon was alive this entire time, then Danny's death woudln't have been all that hard to the Spiders cause, sicne he had 2 back ups in both Visery's and the kid.

 

 

in the game of chess, sometimes you have to sacrifice you Queen in order to achive check mate on your opponite

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your reaction honestly is like telling a casual reader who goes "OMG, Grendal killed Asmo! didn't see that comming" that "Well duh, people have only been saying that since Asmo was killed"

 

Come on Red...per RJ that was "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer" :biggrin:

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Thing I don't get is why Varys is supporting/plotting for the Targaryens to reclaim the throne? I mean what does it matter to him.

 

There's an interesting fan theory that Varys is a descendant of the female line of the Blackfyre Pretenders, and his plan is to put either the Blackfyres or the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne.

 

To back up a little, Daemon Blackfyre was a bastard son of King Aegon IV Targaryen who was given the Targaryen Valyrian steel sword, Blackfyre, by his father, about 115 years before the events of the books. Daemon was considered to be a brave and honourable warrior, a much better prospective king than Aegon's legitimate son, Daeron II, was soft, fat and more of a negotiator and talker. When Aegon IV died, he legitimised Daemon, and he founded House Blackfyre. Ten years later, Daemon apparently discovered evidence that Daeron II was in fact a bastard, whose real father was Aegon IV's brother. That gave Daemon a better claim to the Iron Throne and a civil war broke out. During the war Daemon was supported by his bastard half-brother, Bittersteel, a great warrior, but the third of Aegon's 'great bastards', Bloodraven (who is the three-eyed crow in ADWD, just to show how everything is connected), sided with Daeron II. There was a huge war and Bloodraven killed Daemon Blackfyre. Bittersteel fled to the Free Cities with Daemon's surviving sons.

 

Those sons and their descendants - the Blackfyre Pretenders - tried five times to retake the Iron Throne over the course of sixty years, mostly using the army that Bittersteel founded, the Golden Company. The final time was during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, when Barristan killed Maelys the Monstrous, ending the male line forever. However, in ADWD it is mentioned several times that only the male line was wiped out. Presumably the female line continues in the Free Cities.

 

This has led to fan speculation that either Varys himself is born of that line and has been fulfilly a lifelong promise to restore the dragons (either the red Targaryens or black Blackfyres) to the Iron Throne, or that Aegon VI is actually not a Targaryen but a Blackfyre of the female line, and Varys' lifelong ambition has been to get him on the throne for some reason (maybe a Blackfyre helped him out when he was young?).

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Aegon being alive was made clear by the fact that EVERY time the books referenced his murder, it repeated that his head was bashed in and the corpse was unrecognizable

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Aegon being alive was made clear by the fact that EVERY time the books referenced his murder, it repeated that his head was bashed in and the corpse was unrecognizable

 

Not to mention that we meet Aegon as a baby in ACoK in a vision, and Rhaegar goes on about him being important to future events, then we see a 'mummer's dragon' in the same vision which has some impact on Daenerys.

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well for me it was a great shock to find him still alive and see that the babies had been swaped. i had no reason to suspect that Aegon was still alive and took it at face value that Gregor was just that big of a butt to have smashed the kid so hard and so much that he was beyond recognition.

 

 

same with i never expected it to have been Greandal that killed Asmo. *shrugs8 but again, i also was just a casual reader *grins at Suttree* i didn't pick apart the books like ya'll :tongue:

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It´s very hard to criticize Martin, who is simply master of characterization and style (repeated phrases aside) but as I see it he no longer writes the book in the sense that he wants to write compact whole with the start and sort of ending, rather he is writing one long flow that will not give us rest until the last page of (hopefully) seventh novel. I´ve probably just described most of fantasy authors, but that doesn´t change the fact that when book fails to work on it´s own, perhaps writers should simply realese updates to Kindle ebook text.

 

From the main trio of Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion, I would actually say that ironically it was Jon who got some true resolution with obvious perspective that he is a)not dead and b)ready to take drastically different route. But why Martin couldn´t do Meereenese politics at least a little interesting or why he thought we would be grateful for stupid cliffhnager for Jaime and Brienne (in the end of SINGLE Jaime chapter, no less) I will never know.

Edited by Samwell Tarly

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well Samwell, i think the only thing i'm greatful for on the Berniey/Jamie chapter is that we know that Bernie is atleast alive, which was a major debated over the past 6 years and soemthing most people wanted resolved in this book.

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I agree there could have definitely been a bit more resolution to some of the characters. When I first got the book I expected to see Jon doing his lord commander thing and someting new from the Others to make us go OMG! I expected to see Tyrion meet Dany and while I didn't think she would be heading to westeros I did think we see her beginning to seriously think about going.

 

I also thought we'd see that maester (can't remember his name), the one that Sam met at the end of Feast who who supposedly going to Dany.

 

I thought the Jaime chapter was a bit weird. It seemed sort of out of place in the book. I'd have thought it would be more at home in Feast or in Winds. I was also frustrated that we see Briene but we still don't know what her one word was.

 

I thought jon's ending was the best even though it was a cliffhanger but I really wish we'd seen the end of Barristan's little takeover and Tyrion's scheme. It felt like those two and Dany's chapters ended just when they were finally becoming like vintage ASOIAF quality.

 

I have to admit also that while I thought Quentyn's great plan was pretty dumb I do feel kind of sorry for the Martells. Every plan they make just ends failing completely. Oberyn tries to kill Gregor but succeeds only with his own death (and even that was short-lived now there is ungregor). Arienne tries to crown Myrcella but is foiled by an informer and the girl maimed. And now Quentyn and Doran's plan to ally with Dany gets trashed. They're are becoming like the villains in scooby doo. Maybe we'll have have where Doran says "And I would have got away with it too if it wasn't for your pesky dragons!"

 

I really do think its about time they succeeded in someting. Even the Starks had and number of successes before it all went wrong.

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Who else thinks Hound is still alive? Despite being proclaimed dead by that monk priestofathingie?

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