Where does Egwene’s confidence come from?

[pilgram]

This is the thing that had me baffled quite a bit while I was reading mid-to-late books. In LOC when Sheriam & co tells her that she is to be Amirlyn Seat she objects it for … sentence or two (or three) and next day when talking to Nynaeve and Elayne it’s: I intend to be Amirlyn, not puppet. So, what I want to ask you is where does all that confidence comes from? What makes her think that she’s qualified for the job at all, let alone why does she think she could run Tower better than Sheriam’s group, or Romanda’s or Lelaina’s or in fact any of the Sitters? After all she is accepted promoted to AS on technicality, 18-years old with few months spend in Tower seriously lacking education (in Tower standards) surrounded with, in some cases, women 10 times older than her. Why is she so sure? As far as I can remember she didn’t really questioned her right and qualification for position.

When I thought about it, only thing that I come up was two possibilities: it’s demand of the plot pure and simple, nothing to think about, just go along with ‘Egwene is determined to be real Amirlyn”. Other possibility is that she saw Rand coming to position of leader and thought: well, if Rand can be leader than certainly I can to.

So, what do you think about it?

[Hadilmir]

I'd say Siuan warned her about what Romanda and Lelaine intend, or perhaps she came to the same conclusion herself. It could be as simple as Siuan or her thoughts saying "They wish to control you" which would, based on Egwene's personality, immediately cause her to stubbornly chose to show them she won't be controlled again. This is from both her time as damane and her Two Rivers upbringing.

[David Selig]

It's partly arrogance, of course.

 

But part of it is that Romanda, Lelaine and most others in Salidar are so obviously inept it doesn't take much for Egwene to decide can do better than them and shouldn't listen to their advice. I wouldn't trust those two and most other Aes Sedai to run a garage sale, never mind such a powerful and influential institution as the WT. BTW, I've always thought that one unfortunate effect of the "Egwene the Great Amyrlin at 18" plotline is that to make it plausible, Jordan really dumbed down the Aes Sedai.

 

There's also the simple fact that a figurehead without real authority who's under the control of a few rival factions is a bad way to run anything, especially at a time of war. And since Egwene couldn't just resign, she had to try to get the real power at least to a degree instead of just letting herself follow the advice of whichever faction is on top this day.

[Ananta]

Then there's the "I am always right" attitude of a teenager which also gives her confidence. "My way or the highway."

 

 

 

And just for the record, I don't hate Egwene like most people here seem to do xD But I, too, find it a bit of a stretch how far she's gone with her wits alone (and a little help from Siuan). It's like... Me becoming the president of USA after being an intern there for a few weeks, and have Bush whispering me tips along the way.

[pilgram]

I'd say Siuan warned her about what Romanda and Lelaine intend, or perhaps she came to the same conclusion herself. It could be as simple as Siuan or her thoughts saying "They wish to control you" which would, based on Egwene's personality, immediately cause her to stubbornly chose to show them she won't be controlled again. This is from both her time as damane and her Two Rivers upbringing.

No,it's actualy before she talked with Siuan - during her conversation with Nynaeve and Elayne in LOC ch. 36 - Amirlyn is raised if i'm not mistaken. That's the very morning after she's been raised, more precisly after her first public speach. At that time she didn't really knew anything about situation in Salidar or any of the Sitters.

[Hadilmir]

No,it's actualy before she talked with Siuan - during her conversation with Nynaeve and Elayne in LOC ch. 36 - Amirlyn is raised if i'm not mistaken. That's the very morning after she's been raised, more precisly after her first public speach. At that time she didn't really knew anything about situation in Salidar or any of the Sitters.

Thanks for clearing that up. Then my answer becomes the second option: under her own volition, Egwene realizes the Aes Sedai mean to use her as a puppet. Her time as damane makes her extremely resistant to being controlled, it's logical she would chose to fight against it. Besides, she's a Two Rivers woman, the same group who charged trollocs with cutlery and tools... yea...

[Mats Spare Hat]

Her experience with the Wise Ones couldn't have hurt. They seem pretty good at building someone up through their training & means. Don't they even remark how disappointed they are to see her go, when she does depart their company?

 

Eh, having such a cadre of folks behind you with their support for what you're capable of, for what you've undergone at their own hands, can do a lot for your confidence in the face of new challenges.

[dwn]

I don't think her confidence or capability at that point is really unusual, at least compared to the other main characters. Egwene was showing a political bent fairly early on and had ample opportunity to develop it. From Moiraine's POV in TSR:

 

The girl showed promise, picking up on what she did not understand. But she still needed to learn to control her emotions, to see what had to be done as well as she saw what she wished could be done.

 

-- TSR, Into the Heart, p. 242

 

She then spent months with Moiraine and the Wise Ones, and was peripherally involved with the Cairhien court--all of which would have improved her skill at politics and leadership. We certainly saw her grow beyond Elayne and Nynaeve during that time. Even so, she had to slowly build up her influence in Salidar: she snares Siuan and Leane in LoC, then Myrelle, Carlinya, etc. in ACoS, and finally pulls off the war powers coup with the Hall in PoD.

 

Also, remember that Egwene was raised in LoC, a time when Big Important Things were happening fairly quickly. In that context it makes sense for Egwene to fall into her role with some alacrity. Given the more drawn out plot lines in books 8 - 12, however, it may have been better for her to stumble a bit more in securing her power base.

 

-- dwn

[DemandredFO]

One correction, she never grew grew beyond Nyneave she bullied her way past.

[Luckers]

Egwene always tries to be the best at what she is--it's as simple as that.

[francy]

I'd say Siuan warned her about what Romanda and Lelaine intend, or perhaps she came to the same conclusion herself. It could be as simple as Siuan or her thoughts saying "They wish to control you" which would, based on Egwene's personality, immediately cause her to stubbornly chose to show them she won't be controlled again. This is from both her time as damane and her Two Rivers upbringing.

No,it's actualy before she talked with Siuan - during her conversation with Nynaeve and Elayne in LOC ch. 36 - Amirlyn is raised if i'm not mistaken. That's the very morning after she's been raised, more precisly after her first public speach. At that time she didn't really knew anything about situation in Salidar or any of the Sitters.

 

She has shown she is perceptive, which is why she knew very early on that Sheriam and the others would try and control her, use her as a puppet. I agree with the others, her time spent as Damane makes her whole heartedly resist being controlled. Her time with the WO's has given her back bone and matured her. She has tested herself against Nynaeve, who (even though I love her to bits) is a bit of a bully, and has come out on top - which would have increased her confidence. She also used the same tactics on Rand (who could be quite menacing at this point) - not shouting etc, so she has had practice with standing up for herself before she gets to Salidar.

 

Also, in her POV, she thinks something along the lines of AS "just knowing" even when they don't. Sheriam and the others believed it would take Egwene a couple days of traveling through TAR before she would reach Salidar. They believed it, therefore it was so. The reason I'm bringing this up, is because by this stage Egwene has realised that even though AS THINK they know everything, they really don't. She doesn't have as much faith in them by now, and she isn't so willing to go along with them, especially when she feels they are wrong.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think it is because of two things - first, what Luckers has said, Egwene always tries to be the best at everything she does. Second, it is a different thing to have doubts about your qualifications for the job and to allow yourself to be shamelessly used as a puppet. When she realised they want to rule behind her back and manipulate her, she naturally got angry and decided not to allow it.

 

So, thinking she would be great Amyrlin would be Egwene's arrogance. Resisting Sheriam and co's efforts to make Egwene a puppet - I guess that's a natural reaction for any person without serious confidence problems.

 

BTW' date=' I've always thought that one unfortunate effect of the "Egwene the Great Amyrlin at 18" plotline is that to make it plausible, Jordan really dumbed down the Aes Sedai.[/quote']

 

I definitely agree with what David Selig said there!

[randsc]

I also agree with David. Plot device, enabled by the ineptitude of the other Aes Sedai. You don't even have to be especially arrogant to think that you are capable of leading an organization of idiots.

 

The Aes Sedai, as a group, are nearly as lame as the Foresaken. There is really no excuse for women who are 300 years old to be as clueless and foolish. If you had lived through every war since 1711, don't you think you might be a bit wary about defense? Where's that wariness from the Aes Sedai?

[Hybrid]

I also agree with David. Plot device, enabled by the ineptitude of the other Aes Sedai. You don't even have to be especially arrogant to think that you are capable of leading an organization of idiots.

 

The Aes Sedai, as a group, are nearly as lame as the Foresaken. There is really no excuse for women who are 300 years old to be as clueless and foolish. If you had lived through every war since 1711, don't you think you might be a bit wary about defense? Where's that wariness from the Aes Sedai?

 

A couple factors I can think of to contribute to lack of wariness:

 

1. They have a monopoly (from their point of view) on the use of the One Power.

 

2. No one has successfully attacked the Tower since the time of Amalasan, if I remember correctly. And shortly thereafter, Hawkwing -- after uniting the entire continent and regarded as one of the greatest strategians ever -- failed to even set foot in Tar Valon during his siege.

 

3. They no longer have any real enemies besides the Trollocs, who haven't come past the Borderlands in centuries, and the Whitecloaks, who are far too few to deal any damage.

 

4. The general Aes Sedai superiority complex from centuries of power.

 

I imagine these factors combined to give them a feeling of invincibility. Who would attack the White Tower, after all? The Trollocs? Haven't been seen south of the Borderlands in centuries. The Whitecloaks? Don't have anywhere near the military strength required. Of course, they should be more wary due to recent developments -- the Seanchan, the Asha'man, the coming Last Battle -- but they're arrogant and cleave to tradition.

 

IMO, it's understandable that they aren't wary of an attack due to arrogance, though I agree that their general foolishness is over the top.

[randsc]

But it isn't just the Tower itself, or Tar Valon, that they need to worry about, right? They claim a monopoly on the use of the One Power, claim a right to influence in all of the nations of Randland, and even collect tribute in the Borderlands. They need to be very, very concerned about things like an increase in activity along the blightborder, or they're idiots.

 

A 20-year-old could be forgiven that stupidity, but not a 300-year-old.

[yoniy0]

Hmm. Keep the discussion on Egwene's leadership please.

[Sid]

Egwene has figured out how foreshadowing works, somehow. Whenever someone makes an offhand or seemingly glib comment, it is 99% certain to become true. So when Elayne told her that she will become Amyrlin Seat one day when she's the queen of Andor, then Egwene knew that both would come true. So she does her best to be the best, and when Siuan says that she has it in her to be the best Amyrlin Seat ever, then she knows it foreshadows her success, thus all the confidence. Plus the rest of the SAS's inability to see the forest for the trees repeatedly helped. Plus all the 'woolheads' she grew up with are leading massive armies and nations, so why not her?

[Agitel]

I also agree with David. Plot device, enabled by the ineptitude of the other Aes Sedai. You don't even have to be especially arrogant to think that you are capable of leading an organization of idiots.

 

The Aes Sedai, as a group, are nearly as lame as the Foresaken. There is really no excuse for women who are 300 years old to be as clueless and foolish. If you had lived through every war since 1711, don't you think you might be a bit wary about defense? Where's that wariness from the Aes Sedai?

 

A couple factors I can think of to contribute to lack of wariness:

 

1. They have a monopoly (from their point of view) on the use of the One Power.

 

2. No one has successfully attacked the Tower since the time of Amalasan, if I remember correctly. And shortly thereafter, Hawkwing -- after uniting the entire continent and regarded as one of the greatest strategians ever -- failed to even set foot in Tar Valon during his siege.

 

3. They no longer have any real enemies besides the Trollocs, who haven't come past the Borderlands in centuries, and the Whitecloaks, who are far too few to deal any damage.

 

4. The general Aes Sedai superiority complex from centuries of power.

 

I imagine these factors combined to give them a feeling of invincibility. Who would attack the White Tower, after all? The Trollocs? Haven't been seen south of the Borderlands in centuries. The Whitecloaks? Don't have anywhere near the military strength required. Of course, they should be more wary due to recent developments -- the Seanchan, the Asha'man, the coming Last Battle -- but they're arrogant and cleave to tradition.

 

IMO, it's understandable that they aren't wary of an attack due to arrogance, though I agree that their general foolishness is over the top.

 

5. They've pretty much got a near literal ivory tower syndrome. Most sisters stay locked up in there and rarely leave, only ever dealing with each other. They deal with the world from a distance, and their experience with it is largely academic. The lack of true challenges to it's status and power also play a role.

[mackoY-kun]

Maybe she thinks she's like rand, a prophesied icon. So she just ups and accepts the offer...???

[Hybrid]

But it isn't just the Tower itself, or Tar Valon, that they need to worry about, right? They claim a monopoly on the use of the One Power, claim a right to influence in all of the nations of Randland, and even collect tribute in the Borderlands. They need to be very, very concerned about things like an increase in activity along the blightborder, or they're idiots.

 

A 20-year-old could be forgiven that stupidity, but not a 300-year-old.

 

That's a solid point. When you claim that sort of power, you inherit that responsibility. I can see why they doubt an attack on Tar Valon itself, but their lack of action towards the Blightborder is pretty much unforgiveable.

 

--

 

On topic: I'm with Luckers here -- she tries to be the best at everything. Also, she's got the Two Rivers stubbornness -- try to push her around and she will automatically fight everything you do.

[Elgee]

Maybe she thinks she's like rand, a prophesied icon. So she just ups and accepts the offer...???

 

There was no offer :P - one cannot refuse being nominated or proposed for the Amyrlin Seat. She had 2 choices, either be a puppet, or be her own mistress.

 

It's partly arrogance, of course.

 

But part of it is that Romanda, Lelaine and most others in Salidar are so obviously inept it doesn't take much for Egwene to decide can do better than them and shouldn't listen to their advice. I wouldn't trust those two and most other Aes Sedai to run a garage sale, never mind such a powerful and influential institution as the WT. BTW, I've always thought that one unfortunate effect of the "Egwene the Great Amyrlin at 18" plotline is that to make it plausible, Jordan really dumbed down the Aes Sedai.

 

There's also the simple fact that a figurehead without real authority who's under the control of a few rival factions is a bad way to run anything, especially at a time of war. And since Egwene couldn't just resign, she had to try to get the real power at least to a degree instead of just letting herself follow the advice of whichever faction is on top this day.

 

David, thank you! It has been bugging me for years now how 200 or 300 year old women who have not only gone through a rigorous vetting process (not just ANY woman who can channel to a certain strength can become Aes Sedai - the amount of strong Kin shows that), but have been out in the world for centuries too (no, they don't all stay holed up in the Tower) can be so ... infantile and dumb.

[TheAngryDruid]

This is the thing that had me baffled quite a bit while I was reading mid-to-late books. In LOC when Sheriam & co tells her that she is to be Amirlyn Seat she objects it for … sentence or two (or three) and next day when talking to Nynaeve and Elayne it’s: I intend to be Amirlyn, not puppet. So, what I want to ask you is where does all that confidence comes from? What makes her think that she’s qualified for the job at all, let alone why does she think she could run Tower better than Sheriam’s group, or Romanda’s or Lelaina’s or in fact any of the Sitters? After all she is accepted promoted to AS on technicality, 18-years old with few months spend in Tower seriously lacking education (in Tower standards) surrounded with, in some cases, women 10 times older than her. Why is she so sure? As far as I can remember she didn’t really questioned her right and qualification for position.

When I thought about it, only thing that I come up was two possibilities: it’s demand of the plot pure and simple, nothing to think about, just go along with ‘Egwene is determined to be real Amirlyn”. Other possibility is that she saw Rand coming to position of leader and thought: well, if Rand can be leader than certainly I can to.

So, what do you think about it?

 

You are conflating two separate ideas. First is Egwene's worry about being qualified for the job. The second is her desire not to be a puppet.

 

They aren't mutually exclusive. Just because she doesn't wish to be a puppet ("I AM the Amyrlin") doesn't mean she suddenly thinks she's the most qualified person to do things.

 

However, the two things do feed into each other over time. Once you realize you don't want to be a puppet, you have to act decisive in public and in front of other sisters, lest you give off the idea that you NEED to be guided. Plus, the confidence/not a puppet things feeds on itself somewhat. You start telling yourself you can do it because you don't want to end a puppet. She has to convince herself first.

 

The only times Egwene acts indecisive (outside her inner circle) is when she does it as part of the plot w/ Siuan to play Lelaine and Romanda against each other. But just because she is acting decisive (especially in the beginning) doesn't mean she is in fact confident. As we learn from Rand/Ingtar, the time to act most decisive is when you are least sure. But we know she is still unsure, as the meeting with Nynaeve and Elayne after her raising shows.

 

As time goes on, she gets the advice of Siuan. She sees how petty and blind the so-called wise Aes Sedai are in some ways. And she has the Aiel (and Siuan) to compare them to. And Nynaeve/Elayne as well. A queen in training, a former Amyrlin, a former Keeper, a Village Wisdom, and a bunch of Aiel Wise One Dreamwalkers is a pretty good council of advisors. And her confidence begins to grow. Both as her abilities do, and as she perceives the shortcomings of her rivals with the help of her friends/cohorts. That's when the confidence begins to grow in earnest.

[Terez]

Egwene always tries to be the best at what she is--it's as simple as that.

Exactly. She did question her ability to be Amyrlin. They didn't give her a choice. So, she refused to be a puppet. It's to her credit. It might be different if she hadn't been solicitous of Siuan's advice.

[Suttree]

I also agree with David. Plot device, enabled by the ineptitude of the other Aes Sedai. You don't even have to be especially arrogant to think that you are capable of leading an organization of idiots.

 

The Aes Sedai, as a group, are nearly as lame as the Foresaken. There is really no excuse for women who are 300 years old to be as clueless and foolish. If you had lived through every war since 1711, don't you think you might be a bit wary about defense? Where's that wariness from the Aes Sedai?

 

A couple factors I can think of to contribute to lack of wariness:

 

1. They have a monopoly (from their point of view) on the use of the One Power.

 

2. No one has successfully attacked the Tower since the time of Amalasan, if I remember correctly. And shortly thereafter, Hawkwing -- after uniting the entire continent and regarded as one of the greatest strategians ever -- failed to even set foot in Tar Valon during his siege.

 

3. They no longer have any real enemies besides the Trollocs, who haven't come past the Borderlands in centuries, and the Whitecloaks, who are far too few to deal any damage.

 

4. The general Aes Sedai superiority complex from centuries of power.

 

I imagine these factors combined to give them a feeling of invincibility. Who would attack the White Tower, after all? The Trollocs? Haven't been seen south of the Borderlands in centuries. The Whitecloaks? Don't have anywhere near the military strength required. Of course, they should be more wary due to recent developments -- the Seanchan, the Asha'man, the coming Last Battle -- but they're arrogant and cleave to tradition.

 

IMO, it's understandable that they aren't wary of an attack due to arrogance, though I agree that their general foolishness is over the top.

 

5. They've pretty much got a near literal ivory tower syndrome. Most sisters stay locked up in there and rarely leave, only ever dealing with each other. They deal with the world from a distance, and their experience with it is largely academic. The lack of true challenges to it's status and power also play a role.

 

I've heard people say this before but is it really true? Seems to me a large number of sisters spend the majority of there time outside of the tower. We see various rooms with items gained from years of adventure and even now a third of the tower is out in the wide world.

[Guest PiotrekS]

This is the thing that had me baffled quite a bit while I was reading mid-to-late books. In LOC when Sheriam & co tells her that she is to be Amirlyn Seat she objects it for … sentence or two (or three) and next day when talking to Nynaeve and Elayne it’s: I intend to be Amirlyn, not puppet. So, what I want to ask you is where does all that confidence comes from? What makes her think that she’s qualified for the job at all, let alone why does she think she could run Tower better than Sheriam’s group, or Romanda’s or Lelaina’s or in fact any of the Sitters? After all she is accepted promoted to AS on technicality, 18-years old with few months spend in Tower seriously lacking education (in Tower standards) surrounded with, in some cases, women 10 times older than her. Why is she so sure? As far as I can remember she didn’t really questioned her right and qualification for position.

When I thought about it, only thing that I come up was two possibilities: it’s demand of the plot pure and simple, nothing to think about, just go along with ‘Egwene is determined to be real Amirlyn”. Other possibility is that she saw Rand coming to position of leader and thought: well, if Rand can be leader than certainly I can to.

So, what do you think about it?

 

You are conflating two separate ideas. First is Egwene's worry about being qualified for the job. The second is her desire not to be a puppet.

 

They aren't mutually exclusive. Just because she doesn't wish to be a puppet ("I AM the Amyrlin") doesn't mean she suddenly thinks she's the most qualified person to do things.

 

However, the two things do feed into each other over time. Once you realize you don't want to be a puppet, you have to act decisive in public and in front of other sisters, lest you give off the idea that you NEED to be guided. Plus, the confidence/not a puppet things feeds on itself somewhat. You start telling yourself you can do it because you don't want to end a puppet. She has to convince herself first.

 

The only times Egwene acts indecisive (outside her inner circle) is when she does it as part of the plot w/ Siuan to play Lelaine and Romanda against each other. But just because she is acting decisive (especially in the beginning) doesn't mean she is in fact confident. As we learn from Rand/Ingtar, the time to act most decisive is when you are least sure. But we know she is still unsure, as the meeting with Nynaeve and Elayne after her raising shows.

 

As time goes on, she gets the advice of Siuan. She sees how petty and blind the so-called wise Aes Sedai are in some ways. And she has the Aiel (and Siuan) to compare them to. And Nynaeve/Elayne as well. A queen in training, a former Amyrlin, a former Keeper, a Village Wisdom, and a bunch of Aiel Wise One Dreamwalkers is a pretty good council of advisors. And her confidence begins to grow. Both as her abilities do, and as she perceives the shortcomings of her rivals with the help of her friends/cohorts. That's when the confidence begins to grow in earnest.

 

Your post shows how Egwene as Amyrlin arc could have been better written- especially the bolded part. In the books, Egwene was a master politician from the start, there was no growth there, Siuan's advice was almost redundant. Almost no time needed to pass for her to gain skills and confidence. It her arc was streched out for, let's say, 10 years, I could maybe buy it. But in the books there was not enough time for all that to happen and yet it did.