The Seanchan and the Age of Legends

[Luckers]

So, there are some interesting similarities between Seanchan and the Age of Legends. Firstly, note that the helmets worn by the Seanchan soldiers (ones like monstrous insect heads, with the mandibles for face guards) seem very, very similar to those worn by the Soldiers that fought for the Light in the War of the Shadow. For another, notice the names. In the Age of Legends great achievement earned you a third name, and in Seanchan culture, achievement earns you a higher name. And too, as a form of degradation the Age of Legenders gave the Forsaken new names to mark the shame of what they'd done (for all that the Forsaken took these on as marks of pride), and note when Egeanin turns traitor, Selucia gives her an insult for a name--Leilwin Shipless.

 

From there, we may note that the War of the Shadow seemed to never truly end in Seanchan--or at the least it started up straight away after the Breaking. For almost a thousand years after the Breaking the Seanchan continued to fight the Shadow, the Aes Sedai brought in the 'exotic' animals via portal stone, and finally the Shadow suffered total defeat.

 

From there, consider that it's stated that Latra Posae, who was raised First Amongst Servants after Lews Therin died, continued the war against the Shadow, eventually earning herself the title Shaidar Nor, the Slicer of Shadow. And then we have Seanchan where that war seemingly did not end, and we have stronger remnants of Age of Legends culture (especially military culture) and I wonder if it was not here that Latra Posae fought her war and won her title.

 

If this is true--and yeah, it's fairly loose--but if it is, it may well paint the picture of what occured in Seanchan during the two thousand years before Luthair landed. Specifically, Latra seems to have focussed the Aes Sedai on the single-minded destruction of the Shadow. There was obviously a high attrition rate--Latra herself died during the Breaking, and the Aes Sedai in Seanchan lost as many skills as the Aes Sedai in the Westlands (or, perhaps not as many, given they still used the Portal Stones to good effect, and seemingly retained at least some knowledge of the creation of ter'angreal (which may again be a sign of higher societal cohesion during the Breaking), but still alot).

 

With that, generation after generation fighting their war, the Aes Sedai would have to have become an essentially militaristic society, as would have the Seanchan beneath them. So what happens in such a society when the enemy is finally defeated? They turn on one another. Add a thousand years and that is precisely the society that Luthair encountered.

 

 

Anyway, was just thinking randomly, but adds some interesting colouring to Seanchan... *shrug*

 

What do you guys think?

[dwn]

It does make sense. An ongoing war and siege mentality would likely create the kind of cohesion that would better preserve certain (useful) parts of history and culture. In some ways it's similar to how the Aiel preserved a twisted form of their AoL culture.

 

-- dwn

[Elgee]

It makes sense, now that you put it that way. Obviously all Aes Sedai wouldn't have somehow ended up being on "Randland" when the physical breaking of the world happened, so where were those NOT on / in "Randland"? Had to be Seanchan and Shara.

[Leyrann]

I think the world broke everywhere, but that it was the most in Randland and the Land of the Madmen.

[drimid]

It would be great to have more info on what happened following the Breaking in the Seanchan continent. From what I understand the western Aes Sedai didn't develop something equivalent to the Three Oaths that gave the White Tower Aes Sedai the tolerance and respect they enjoyed in the Westlands.

 

It is strange however that for thousands of years communication between the two continents was never established. A half forgotten order like the Watchers is just not enough.

I am still hoping that Fortuona and Rand will become allies before the end to face the Shadow, and that she will give him some valuable relic from the AoL like the Tamyrlin Ring. Who knows what other relics and objects of Power the Seanchan have from that Age.

[LazyMonk]

I see 2 weaknesses in the theory.

1. If Seanchan AS were raised and trained as warriors for 2000 years BEFORE they were leashed... how in the world could they have lost so thoroughly to become damane!? OP users should have been the ruling class.

2. If Seanchan was such a strong civilization that used the OP in battle... How could Hawkwing's army managed to conquer it? Hawkwing's army didn't have channelers.

[Leyrann]

One of those Aes Sedai allied herself first with Hawkwing's armies, and she gave them the first a'dam. And then gained their own channelers, and could create more a'dam.

[GYLD]

What you describe sounds a little too formal and too well organized from what we've heard of pre Hawking Seanchan. The ruling Aes Sedai are described as little more than warlords seizing whatever power they could before they were quickly assassinated and replaced by another.

 

I suppose it's possible that whatever military society Latra created simply fractured over generations, but I always was under the impression things were so bad in Seanchan because channelers lacked an organization that prevented individuals from abusing their power.

[DemandredFO]

Besides, 1000 years of civil I think would ruin anyones day, and that's how Luthair was able to subjugate the continent.

Another support may be that we've never heard Letra's name in Randland. I know AS don't spread knowledge but I'd think among themselves they'd mention Letra

[Sharaman]

The major action appears to have occurred on Rand's continent (Westland). Shayol Ghul, Dragonmount and Tar Valon are all located there. Fairly loose but it could mean Latra and co. were slightly more likely to have been located there.

[Luckers]

1. If Seanchan AS were raised and trained as warriors for 2000 years BEFORE they were leashed... how in the world could they have lost so thoroughly to become damane!? OP users should have been the ruling class.

 

1000 years. I'd suggest the dissolution of whatever military government that had evolved in Seanchan would have begun as soon as the Shadowspawn were defeated. Without an enemy to unite them, a naturally combatative system of government would have began jostling for power pretty quickly.

 

What Luthair found was a thousand years of infighting and chaos later. It's the War of the Hundred Years times ten.

 

What you describe sounds a little too formal and too well organized from what we've heard of pre Hawking Seanchan. The ruling Aes Sedai are described as little more than warlords seizing whatever power they could before they were quickly assassinated and replaced by another.

 

I suppose it's possible that whatever military society Latra created simply fractured over generations, but I always was under the impression things were so bad in Seanchan because channelers lacked an organization that prevented individuals from abusing their power.

 

Since that's precisely what I suggested in my original post, yes. The Shadowspawn in Seanchan had been defeated by the beginning of the Trolloc Wars. That leaves over a thousand years for their infrastructure too turn in on itself and disolve--which, given it was a society that was forged in war (and not just a warlike society like the Aiel, but one forged to fight an enemy), then I see no problems on it turning on itself once that enemy was defeated.

 

And then yes, after a thousand years of infighting all constraint was gone, and that was what Luthair found.

 

The major action appears to have occurred on Rand's continent (Westland). Shayol Ghul, Dragonmount and Tar Valon are all located there. Fairly loose but it could mean Latra and co. were slightly more likely to have been located there.

 

Shayol Ghoul was an island in the Age of Legends--and one described as far out of the way. A rustic retreat. Furthermore Lews Therin created Dragonmount (and subsequently Tar Valon in the creation of the island) in a place he chose specifically because it was out of the way.

 

There is no reason to believe at all that the significance of the Westlands in modern times had any impact on the disposition or interaction of forces in the Age of Legends--especially in a society with Sho-wings and travelling.

[Lacanos]

I think this theory has a lot of merit and it's one I've considered before, albeit without including Latra Posae in it.

 

The Aes Sedai not maintaining stable rule is easily understandable - the problems of numbers and treachery and infighting among these channelers would stop any individual creating a substantive kingdom.

[hazelkrs1]

I think this theory is pretty sound overall. One other thing I wanted to throw in was that there probably wouldn't be as much of a centralized Aes Sedai authority like there is in Randland, due to the militaristic society. Because of that, any random "wilder" who came along who found herself to be stronger than the average Aes Sedai would be the potential seed for a different rebellious faction.

[Luckers]

I think this theory is pretty sound overall. One other thing I wanted to throw in was that there probably wouldn't be as much of a centralized Aes Sedai authority like there is in Randland, due to the militaristic society. Because of that, any random "wilder" who came along who found herself to be stronger than the average Aes Sedai would be the potential seed for a different rebellious faction.

 

Actually I'm thinking the opposite. I think the Aes Sedai stayed rigidly centralized during the wars with the Shadowspawn--its the only way such an effort could be maintained over a thousand years. It was only after the Trollocs were defeated that I believe that that rigidity fractured--precisely because it would have been so strictly rigid--and thus we see the situation devolve to what Luthair found..

[Hyronimus]

The devolution of the systems of servitude does suggest harsher, more iron fisted demands.

 

The slave systems of the seachan, with slaves that can occupy positions of respect, and the fact that slavery is hereditary seems to be related to the old covenant, but adapted by the stricter, meaner demands of a militant society.

 

Contrast this with our current Aiel, who seemed to have preserved a larger amount of that sense of willing, 'enpowered', honourable (though there are honourable seachan slaves) service, which i would differentiate from servitude.

 

The Aiel of the age of legends considered themselves dedicated. For our Aiel it now means a devotion to ideals of honour, while for the Seachen it may have meant/resulted in the giving of one self complety, to be used as needed, as property is used as needed.

[hazelkrs1]

I think this theory is pretty sound overall. One other thing I wanted to throw in was that there probably wouldn't be as much of a centralized Aes Sedai authority like there is in Randland, due to the militaristic society. Because of that, any random "wilder" who came along who found herself to be stronger than the average Aes Sedai would be the potential seed for a different rebellious faction.

 

Actually I'm thinking the opposite. I think the Aes Sedai stayed rigidly centralized during the wars with the Shadowspawn--its the only way such an effort could be maintained over a thousand years. It was only after the Trollocs were defeated that I believe that that rigidity fractured--precisely because it would have been so strictly rigid--and thus we see the situation devolve to what Luthair found..

 

I think you might have misunderstood me, there was a militaristic structure involving the Aes Sedai, but not a centralized political presence, as in the case with Tar Valon. Consider how the Sea Folk use their channelers, they spread them out along the entire fleet. A militaristic society would do the same, every battalion would have X channelers, and whatnot. Since the threat of the shadow was so serious, there was no need to create a policing organization to control channelers. Once the threat of the shadow died, it was too late to try and create an instituition which could exercise the authority of one like the White Tower.

[Hybrid]

IIRC:

 

I see 2 weaknesses in the theory.

1. If Seanchan AS were raised and trained as warriors for 2000 years BEFORE they were leashed... how in the world could they have lost so thoroughly to become damane!? OP users should have been the ruling class.

 

When Luthair showed up, the OP users were the ruling class.

 

2. If Seanchan was such a strong civilization that used the OP in battle... How could Hawkwing's army managed to conquer it? Hawkwing's army didn't have channelers.

 

One of the Seanchan channelers approached Luthair with the first a'dam. Luthair leashed most of the channelers with her help and the help of his growing army of damane, then he turned on her.

[Charlz Guybon]

What you describe sounds a little too formal and too well organized from what we've heard of pre Hawking Seanchan. The ruling Aes Sedai are described as little more than warlords seizing whatever power they could before they were quickly assassinated and replaced by another.

 

I suppose it's possible that whatever military society Latra created simply fractured over generations, but I always was under the impression things were so bad in Seanchan because channelers lacked an organization that prevented individuals from abusing their power.

 

To defeat the Shadow (even with the advantage of being cut off from the main Blight) so thoroughly they would have needed stable states/organizations. These institutions could easily have been destroyed in constant civil war over the next thousand years after the Shadow was beaten.