Lanfear and Grolm

[Luckers]

So, in tGH Lanfear was seemingly able to summon Grolm, even from a distance, without being able to see them. She also is seemingly able to control them, as the Grolm that attacked her did not display any signs of being 'held off' by the Power.

 

This could have interesting implications for the Shadow and the Seanchan--who use more usual forms of training. Thoughts?

[Mystica]

Grolm will obey their trainer, so it's not unlikely that Lanfear trained them. There is one flaw in that option, Lanfear being so full of herself I don't see her mustering up the patience to train them. She's used to everyone doing what she wants, the instant she wants it. On the other hand, she wouldn't be the first Forsaken to have a soft, weak spot for animals while being able to do horrible things to humans. One of them was very fond of cats, I think, and took in every stray she could find.

 

It never occurred to me that she summoned them. I always assuemd she had set them in motion and had calculated their time of arrival at that spot and manipulated events so that they would collide. For Lanfear this would be small potatoes (manipulating things, I mean) since she's been doing that for a long time already (and survived the multiple assassination attempts from other Forsaken).

 

When it comes to a confrontation with the Seanchan Grolm, I always assumed that it would be like horses on a battle field. The horses aren't fighting the battle, but they obey whatever master is holding their reign at the time.

 

 

I'm curious now to your own thoughts though, since you brought it up. Do you see something significant in this?

[Leyrann]

Grolm will obey their trainer, so it's not unlikely that Lanfear trained them. There is one flaw in that option, Lanfear being so full of herself I don't see her mustering up the patience to train them. She's used to everyone doing what she wants, the instant she wants it. On the other hand, she wouldn't be the first Forsaken to have a soft, weak spot for animals while being able to do horrible things to humans. One of them was very fond of cats, I think, and took in every stray she could find.

 

It never occurred to me that she summoned them. I always assuemd she had set them in motion and had calculated their time of arrival at that spot and manipulated events so that they would collide. For Lanfear this would be small potatoes (manipulating things, I mean) since she's been doing that for a long time already (and survived the multiple assassination attempts from other Forsaken).

 

When it comes to a confrontation with the Seanchan Grolm, I always assumed that it would be like horses on a battle field. The horses aren't fighting the battle, but they obey whatever master is holding their reign at the time.

 

 

I'm curious now to your own thoughts though, since you brought it up. Do you see something significant in this?

 

That one who likes cats is Black Ajah. I thought Temaile.

[Luckers]

Lanfear had been free at most a month. To train a grolm would take years. And too there is the problem that the grolm appeared the moment rand balked at going to the portal stone, and then more the instant rand slew the first lot.

[Mystica]

Ah, right, thanks Leyrann. You're right.

 

 

Good points, Luckers. is it possible to Compulse animals? If it is, that could be a way? Or maybe Grolm have been captured by the Shadow and raised/trained like the Trollocs have. There are thousands of those and I doubt they all sprung up in a month's time. Perhaps these Grolm were also corrupted in to Shadowspawn?

[rand4747]

Moiraine in New Spring was somehow able to manipulate a lot of ants to get into Lan's clothes and bite him all at once. Its not compulsion she did but she somehow made them do it.

[ROB_88]

back when i first read it and didn't know how the Power worked i assumed she just "created" them. or maybe they were just an illusion.

 

now however i don't think that would work.

if anyone has the book available, did Rand notice getting any saidar-related goose bumps?

[Mr Ares]

Ah, right, thanks Leyrann. You're right.

Half right - it was Marillin, not Temaile.

 

Good points, Luckers. is it possible to Compulse animals?

The answer to that depends at least in part on how much of a grammar nazi one is.

Or maybe Grolm have been captured by the Shadow and raised/trained like the Trollocs have.

I have wondered whether the grolm (and other Seanchan exotics) might be some sort of mirror world Shadowspawn - the creatures Aginor never got around to creating in the main timeline. This is just idle speculation, of course, and I'm not aware of anything to back it up, but if true it might suggest that the Chosen mark offers the same level of command over these beasties as it does over normal Shadowspawn.

[Leyrann]

So each morat'grolm is a DF? Or morat'raken. Morat'to'raken. And so on. And they also have the Chosen mark? I don't think so.

[Didgya]

We saw Grandal control the bird in TOM with the power. Lanfear might have done it that way or she knew what kind of sound/smell/something to attract them. It was probable just a convenient plot driver by RJ that was never explained. One other serious theory involves Asmo and a shock lance. (Yee Haw, get on ya little doggies or uh froggies)

[Kahsm]

While I'm not sure how, I still think she created them somehow, or brought them from the real world.

 

Because that world was faded (one of the weaker possible worlds) and completely unpopulated of anything but foliage. They saw and heard nothing but plants until they found Lanfear. Then they all "conveniently" popped up as Luckers describes.

 

Also, when Hurin catches a glimpse of her before they see her fending off the first one, he says he thought he saw a lady and "something else". So it sounds like the first one was trailing around with her for awhile.

 

I can't really add anything to how she did it. Given that arrows stuck in them, I don't think it could be an illusion. I'd have to guess some sort of animal compulsion, or maybe a spin on bonding (one that AoL people knew) that lets her give orders from afar?

 

Also, I don't think we ever see the final pack, they might not exist. So she may have just had 6 and was making the noises with the OP to herd them after that. She seemed quite frustrated when Rand kept insisting they fight.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

she may have just sensed them and known they would go after fresh meat in such a barren land. perhaps they were like watch dogs and could be expected to act exactly as they did?

[Luckers]

Quick note, grolm and all the other seanchab exotics with the exception of s'redit came from mirror worlds, brought to the real world by aes sedai in seanchan during the first thousand years after the breaking.

 

So there prresense in the mirror worlds is not actually odd.

[Kahsm]

Quick note, grolm and all the other seanchab exotics with the exception of s'redit came from mirror worlds, brought to the real world by aes sedai in seanchan during the first thousand years after the breaking.

 

So there prresense in the mirror worlds is not actually odd.

 

Yep yep, I get that. But while they're travelling they also mention how there's no evidence anything had ever moved through the area either. Just seemed to me that was one of the 'not-likely' unpopulated worlds, and that the grolm were imports. It's entirely possible they're just very isolated though.

[ironisles]

And was that world empty? Something made that contrail they saw.

[Mystica]

Moiraine in New Spring was somehow able to manipulate a lot of ants to get into Lan's clothes and bite him all at once. Its not compulsion she did but she somehow made them do it.

 

yeah, but that did require the use of the One Power. Lanfear didn't use the OP, as far as I can remember. At least, Rand's pov didn't show any goosebumps at the time, did he?

 

 

Good points, Luckers. is it possible to Compulse animals?

The answer to that depends at least in part on how much of a grammar nazi one is.

 

I generally have no use for grammar nazis.

[Kahsm]

Moiraine in New Spring was somehow able to manipulate a lot of ants to get into Lan's clothes and bite him all at once. Its not compulsion she did but she somehow made them do it.

 

yeah, but that did require the use of the One Power. Lanfear didn't use the OP, as far as I can remember. At least, Rand's pov didn't show any goosebumps at the time, did he?

 

 

Rand didn't equate the two until TSR when he meets with Egwene and Elayne and they figure it out. It simply may not have been mentioned because he didn't really notice. Heat of battle and all.

[Luckers]

Yep yep, I get that. But while they're travelling they also mention how there's no evidence anything had ever moved through the area either. Just seemed to me that was one of the 'not-likely' unpopulated worlds, and that the grolm were imports. It's entirely possible they're just very isolated though.

 

 

Except there were over a hundred. Even Lanfear would struggle to bring that many--furthermore its clearly evident that she didn't expect Rand to be able to kill the first lot, and the others only came when she realised five wouldn't be enough to force Rand to use the Portal Stone. Why would she have brought so many if she didn't expect to ever need them?

 

Possibly grolm will not naturally approach or attack people--maybe they are herbivours. It would be a reasonable explanation as to why Rand and co. don't see any until Lanfear needed them. Alternately Lanfear could have been keeping them away from Rand and co. until she needed them. Either way I doubt Lanfear brought them to that world. Lacking an angreal it would have taken a lot of effort, to no percievable need or gain.

 

 

yeah, but that did require the use of the One Power. Lanfear didn't use the OP, as far as I can remember. At least, Rand's pov didn't show any goosebumps at the time, did he?

 

Nor did he show goosebumps when Egwene channeled the lamp alight in Fal Dara. In fact as near as I recall there is only one instance prior to tSR when he feels the goosebumps, so possibly the sense is intermitent at first, like how Egwene sees a flicker of light around Siuan when she channels during their lesson on the boat to Tar Valon, but doesn't truly see the light of channeling until Elayne channels in the White Tower.

 

Alternately, the goosebumps I'm thinking of occur when he knew Moiraine was channeling, and was feeling nervy of it, so it might not even be the 'sense'.

[Mystica]

from the BWB:

 

Grolm are the size of large bears, weighing between three to five hundred pounds. They have a gray-green colored skin with the texture of tough frogs.

They have three eyes, small and fierce that lack the intelligence of a torm.

Their beaks are horny and used for tearing and ripping flesh.

Grolm appear awkward and wobbly when walking but that changes the moment they start to run, using their muscular hind legs to leaped and bound forward at great speed.

 

They are used as guard animals because of their very good vision, keen sense of smell and tendency to be extremely territorial. They learn quickly who is allowed in a given area and will use their sense of smell to distinguish anyone who is nervous or afraid.

 

They are also used in battle, but only against lightly armored opponents. To break holes in an enemy line which will be quickly exploited by human soldiers. They can also be used against cavalry, as horses often panic in their presence unless they are trained to tolerate them. Grolm are very hard to kill, fortunately as their hides are thick enough to turn most blows from swords, axes or spears away and arrows fail to penetrate their hide unless aimed at a vulnerable spot such as an eye. They have fantastic endurance and will keep going even when injured and it takes seriously ferocious wounds to even slow them down significantly. They also heal very rapidly.

 

Grolm give birth to litters of young at a time, though usually only one from each litter survives.

 

They are kept separate in captivity as they show aggression to their own kind if unchecked. They will often rip apart and eat one of their own that is injured and they even consume their own dead.

 

Grolm are controlled by spoken commands, hand signals and the use of a small, piercing whistle-like flute. It is a matter of pride among morat'grolm to use only the hand signals and the flute, probably in distant imitation of the way the Blood communicate.

 

 

 

So they're carnivors, extremely territorial and can be controlled by the use of a flute (maybe one above human hearing?).

 

 

To be honest, I dunno. Its one of those things I never really stopped to consider because it didn't seem important in the big picture. Probably will turn around and bite me later, but meh. I'll find out in the last book

[Sharaman]

IIRC, the grolm were brought to Seanchan to fight Shadowspawn post-Breaking. If so, Lanfear had no previous knowledge of them before she was trapped in the Bore. So whatever method she used to control or lure them was generic or relatively easy. Since these are mirror world Grolms, there's also very little chance that she was working with trained animals from Seanchan.

My best guess : She knew a way to lure them - maybe by direct manipulation of their minds/ senses. rand as pointed out earlier, doesn't always feel goosebumps and he may not even notice because he's under stress and Lanfear is hot enough to give him goosebumps anyhow.

[Mr Ares]

So each morat'grolm is a DF? Or morat'raken. Morat'to'raken. And so on. And they also have the Chosen mark? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. But as I never said anything like that, and nor did anyone else...

[Entreri]

how do you know that Lanfear isn't a half-human half-grolm hybrid?

 

beastiality wouldn't be out of the question in AoL

[ROB_88]

how do you know that Lanfear isn't a half-human half-grolm hybrid?

 

beastiality wouldn't be out of the question in AoL

 

the image that just popped into my head was horrible

[Leyrann]

So each morat'grolm is a DF? Or morat'raken. Morat'to'raken. And so on. And they also have the Chosen mark? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. But as I never said anything like that, and nor did anyone else...

 

You did. There is no other way than the Chosen mark or (maybe) strong OP to control Shadowspawn.

[Allotafagina]

Quick note, grolm and all the other seanchab exotics with the exception of s'redit came from mirror worlds, brought to the real world by aes sedai in seanchan during the first thousand years after the breaking.

 

So there prresense in the mirror worlds is not actually odd.

Do you have a source? I dont doubt that its true just want to know here you got the info. =) And has you seem learned on the subjects, are they creations of Aginor?