Verin Used Compulsion on Ingtar?

[MyKillK]

Chapter 33 of TGH was an interesting one. In addition to Verin's suspicious private chat with Barthanes, a known Darkfriend, this particular line had me interested, when Rand, Hurin, and Loial return from their Waygate adventure in Barthanes's manor: "Ingtar looked a little dazed." And then Verin walks off as soon as she sees them. It made me wonder if she used Compulsion on him.

 

That wasn't the first time Ingtar acted strangely in the presence of Verin. In an earlier chapter, Hurin was stunned by his behavior of saying "I must have the horn! I must!". It is not the Shienarin way to say 'must' -- to them whatever comes, comes, even for something as important as retrieving the Horn of Valere. I wonder if Verin had previously used Compulsion to retrieve the Horn, explaining his uncharacteristic statement.

 

 

She must have changed her mind (perhaps something Barthanes told her in their conversation 10 minute earlier?), giving Ingtar another Command to allow Rand to have the Horn in the end.

[Suttree]

That wasn't the first time Ingtar acted strangely in the presence of Verin. In an earlier chapter, Hurin was stunned by his behavior of saying "I must have the horn! I must!". It is not the Shienarin way to say 'must' -- to them whatever comes, comes, even for something as important as retrieving the Horn of Valere.

 

Would he say "must" for something as important as his own soul? He viewed retrieving the Horn as a possible way for gaining redemption from being a DF.

[MyKillK]

Would he say "must" for something as important as his own soul? He viewed retrieving the Horn as a possible way for gaining redemption from being a DF.

 

Not that long ago he was freeing Padan Fain from Fal Dara. Is he really repentant or was his behavior at the end of TGH a consequence of Compulsion?

[ironisles]

Would he say "must" for something as important as his own soul? He viewed retrieving the Horn as a possible way for gaining redemption from being a DF.

 

Not that long ago he was freeing Padan Fain from Fal Dara. Is he really repentant or was his behavior at the end of TGH a consequence of Compulsion?

 

Well I am starting PoD and in the prologue Verin uses it on an Aes Sedai prisoner of the Aiel. It takes her a fairly long time to complete it and she had to have complete privacy while doing it. I don't remember her being totally alone with him for that length of time. Maybe it happened off screen?

[Deadsy]

giving Ingtar another Command to allow Rand to have the Horn in the end.

That would destroy his character. That's a good enough reason not to believe it's remotely possible.

[MyKillK]

Would he say "must" for something as important as his own soul? He viewed retrieving the Horn as a possible way for gaining redemption from being a DF.

 

Not that long ago he was freeing Padan Fain from Fal Dara. Is he really repentant or was his behavior at the end of TGH a consequence of Compulsion?

 

Well I am starting PoD and in the prologue Verin uses it on an Aes Sedai prisoner of the Aiel. It takes her a fairly long time to complete it and she had to have complete privacy while doing it. I don't remember her being totally alone with him for that length of time. Maybe it happened off screen?

 

Rand and Loial were away from the party for at least 10-20 minutes checking out the Waygate. Would that be enough time? It's also not the Carhienen way to intrude on another's private conversation, so maybe that would provide the privacy Verin needs to do her weave.

[MyKillK]

There has to be a reason why RJ wrote that particular line. And the fact that he used the world 'dazed' as opposed to 'surprised' or 'shocked' suggests the immediate aftermath of Compulsion being used, rather than Ingtar reacting to Verin revealing herself as a fellow Darkfriend or something.

[Suttree]

There has to be a reason why RJ wrote that particular line. And the fact that he used the world 'dazed' as opposed to 'surprised' or 'shocked' suggests the immediate aftermath of Compulsion being used, rather than Ingtar reacting to Verin revealing herself as a fellow Darkfriend or something.

 

We have to remember Verin does not truly know Compulsion as the Forsaken do. Her version is cobbled together from what she could glean from wilders newly arrived at the Tower. She herself talks about how long it takes and mentions it is rarely effective when used on men.

 

tPoD "Deceptive Appearances"

Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts describe it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was...Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. The fact cut down on its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai. Distrust aside, men were very bad subjects unfortunately...Any strong personality might began to question his own actions

 

even more so if that man is a DF.

[LazyMonk]

I disagree.

You're reading too much from a simple thing. Ingtar is "dazed" after a multitude of scheming and intrigue laden conversions and being cornered by some of 'ladies' like Rand. Though he's a noble himself, he's more of a professional soldier and completely unused to the 'Game of Houses'.

 

Ingtar is desperate to redeem himself, he fully regrets whatever he had to do as a Darkfriend. He's frantically looking for ways to 'come back to the light'.

In tEotW, he's angry and disappointed when he's ordered to escort Moiraine's party to the Blight border denying him the battle in Tarwin's gap. That's not pride or lust for battle... He sees it as another lost opportunity to 'come back to the light'.

When Fal-Dara is attacked he confronts a Fade that just bested 7 men and refuses aid. That's more than just fighting for the keep, it's a personal duel against the Shadow.

Saving the horn, for Ingtar, is the very last chance to redeem himself and come back to the light. That's the source of his intensity ("I must have the horn! I must!") and 'un-Borderlander' behavior.

[Sharaman]

If she did use Compulsion Verin version, there's no hint of it until TPoD when we first learn that Verin has this skill.

RJ had enough room to have tossed a line into Verin's PoV at some stage. It seems more likely that Ingtar was just experiencing increasing internal conflict at what he had done.

[rand4747]

he wanted to fight at the gap because he knew if he did he would die, wanted to redeem himself by dying defending his people. I don't know why he let the trollocs into the keep, he must have had a visit and been pressured to somehow.

[Kahsm]

My understanding was that it was the two Fain-corrupted jailers that opened the gates. Rand mentions that there are new jailers who died when Fain escaped, and we see the old ones from his first visit are dead at one of the darkfriend camps, having left with the group of darkfriends.

[DemandredFO]

He did let the greyman in though

[Sharaman]

I think Jordan confirmed it was Ingtar who pulled Fain out of the dungeon - this makes it very high probability that he was involved in opening the gates.

[MyKillK]

I disagree.

You're reading too much from a simple thing. Ingtar is "dazed" after a multitude of scheming and intrigue laden conversions and being cornered by some of 'ladies' like Rand. Though he's a noble himself, he's more of a professional soldier and completely unused to the 'Game of Houses'.

 

Ingtar is desperate to redeem himself, he fully regrets whatever he had to do as a Darkfriend. He's frantically looking for ways to 'come back to the light'.

In tEotW, he's angry and disappointed when he's ordered to escort Moiraine's party to the Blight border denying him the battle in Tarwin's gap. That's not pride or lust for battle... He sees it as another lost opportunity to 'come back to the light'.

When Fal-Dara is attacked he confronts a Fade that just bested 7 men and refuses aid. That's more than just fighting for the keep, it's a personal duel against the Shadow.

Saving the horn, for Ingtar, is the very last chance to redeem himself and come back to the light. That's the source of his intensity ("I must have the horn! I must!") and 'un-Borderlander' behavior.

 

 

If I remember correctly, that Fade cracked a smile so it must be Shaidar Haran. I think Ingtar refused any aid because instead of fighting Haran they went together to free Fain.

[MyKillK]

There has to be a reason why RJ wrote that particular line. And the fact that he used the world 'dazed' as opposed to 'surprised' or 'shocked' suggests the immediate aftermath of Compulsion being used, rather than Ingtar reacting to Verin revealing herself as a fellow Darkfriend or something.

 

We have to remember Verin does not truly know Compulsion as the Forsaken do. Her version is cobbled together from what she could glean from wilders newly arrived at the Tower. She herself talks about how long it takes and mentions it is rarely effective when used on men.

 

tPoD "Deceptive Appearances"

Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts describe it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was...Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. The fact cut down on its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai. Distrust aside, men were very bad subjects unfortunately...Any strong personality might began to question his own actions

 

even more so if that man is a DF.

 

Borderlanders respect Aes Sedai though, they aren't suspicious of them. And as for the strong personality questioning his own actions thing...well that might explain why Ingtar seems to bounce around from being a definite DF (Freeing Fain) and desiring redemption (Allowing Rand to have the Horn)