Mafia Grievances

[Myndrunner]

I've played DM mafia games for years off and on, but lately I have noticed a shift that has really tainted the games here.

 

1) Since when have people taken the games so personal? If I call you mafia, its not because I think you are a bad person outside the game, its pure gameplay. Crying about it in the game thread to get sympathy is pathetic. If you can't handle aggressive gameplay, then you shouldn't be playing mafia.

 

2) Since when have the mafia not been allowed to communicate with each other outside the mafia QT? Like on Skype or email, or alternate QT's? When one of the mafia players is suspected of being recruited to a cult or a town spy, how can the mafia handle this situation?

 

3) Why are moderators so trigger happy with modkilling, especially before they hear from the person they modkilled? Mafia games, especially epic and complicated ones where everyone has a role, will always present situations that the moderator hadn't forseen, but is the answer really to modkill a player for an implied rule that was never clearly stated simply because they found a way around the game setup?

 

If this is what DM Mafia has become, then you won't see me around here anymore. I'm sure some of you have no problem with that and are content with sticking your heads in the sand.

[Amadine]

Have to agree with you on 1 and 3 Mynd, there was a couple of times i could have modkilled in my game that has just finished - but as you say, for something that was not crystal clear. Instead i twapped the player and compensate those who with disadvantage with a one-shot ability to balance any damage that had been done.

 

 

And for 2) i had not thought about that aspect. Personally i like to be able to see the discussion and manoeuvring by my scum teams - but perhaps if they suspected a second QT could be set up or something like that...

 

 

 

My pet hate is having to find replacements. I replaced 9 out of a 24 player list (some roles more than once). I understand RL issues but when people have signed up for too many games and they drop out of the ones with the most boring roles its a real kick in the teeth for the mod. Even more so when you see them being replaced in games over, and over, and over again. Limit yourself to the number of games you can comfortably play and play the games you sign up for. </rant>

[Nolder]

for the record the way I learned to play mafia was Scum would only be able to communicate during the Night by PMing each other

I do like the QuickTopic idea better and everyone being able to talk at all times seems good for activity though

[Myndrunner]

Nolder, in the original non-BB Mafia, that was true. Face-2-face scum, the mafia could only communicate at night. Still, in every game I've played in, unless otherwise specified by the mod, mafia can talk to each other and plan any way they can. I recall Verbal actually trying to call his mafia team on MSN to hammer before the voting flipped to him. I've never heard of mafia being forced to use only the mafia QT, especially when there is an actual spy for the town on their team.

 

I hear ya Amadine. Let's look at this example:

 

Suppose the mafia team consists of Lanfear, Rahvin, Ishmael, and Asmodean. The mafia win in the standard way, becoming equal or lesser than the total town.

 

But suppose Asmodean actually wins with the town but is unable to name any of the mafia players. Now, suppose that Ishmael suspects that Asmodean is indeed the spy.

 

Why is it an infraction for Ishmael to communicate behind Asmodean's back without the mod knowing? Why does the Mod need to know everything said by the mafia team? If there is a specific role that needs the QT used only, then it needs to be made crystal clear in the MOD PM, not implied or assumed.

 

As far as trigger happy mods, I think that's just someone letting the role get to their heads, especially when they kill first before hearing their player out.

 

Mods are not supposed to be nuns with iron rulers, but hosts at a party.

[LilyElizabeth]

Mynd, I have to agree with all three of your points. I've only ever modkilled players 3 times in all the games I've run and two of them were for broken PR's. I don't see where there is a need to do it unless you absolutely have to.

 

People must have forgotten what life was like before QT's. It was before my time, but I can still see how it was.

[Myndrunner]

Mynd, I have to agree with all three of your points. I've only ever modkilled players 3 times in all the games I've run and two of them were for broken PR's. I don't see where there is a need to do it unless you absolutely have to.

 

People must have forgotten what life was like before QT's. It was before my time, but I can still see how it was.

 

Lilly, I've witnessed you modkilling and how you handled it. I do not consider you a trigger happy mod at all. Gameplay aside, it really sucked when Ithi got modkilled because I had her worked up, its only karma that she ended up duping me and kate in the end for an epic finale victory. The difference is you communicated with Ithi before you made your decision and when it was made, there was no objection or misinterpretation.

 

Haven't gotten that everywhere. Mafia needs more mods like you.

[amegakure]

so uh...are we not allowed to choose wether or not Scum can have alternate means of communication. I was under the impression we could if we so desired.

[Myndrunner]

so uh...are we not allowed to choose wether or not Scum can have alternate means of communication. I was under the impression we could if we so desired.

 

My view is that you can design the game however you want, mod is the mod. There are standards though that when your game varies from it should be made crystal clear. For example, if you don't want the mafia to communicate outside the QT, then you need to be specific about it.

 

My question is why would you put that restriction?

[Ithillian Turambar]

The few times I have been on a team, whether Mafia or Mason - the Mod has not minded if we communicate via alternate means. Me and Kathleen were on msn almost permanently during Lily's game.

 

Mafia and suchlike need to react quickly sometimes because they are often at a disadvantage.

 

I have my own complaints about this game - but will share them when it ends.

 

Also - I never blamed you Mynd :) you are a most interesting player to have around and I hope you stay and play some more - you and your snake ;)

[Ithillian Turambar]

Ps. I loved that Lily said 'do what you want' just cos you can communicate outside the Thread doesn't mean you are telling or being told the truth.

 

And even in such a mod-relaxed game I managed to get myself killed - epic lol.

[Myndrunner]

The few times I have been on a team, whether Mafia or Mason - the Mod has not minded if we communicate via alternate means. Me and Kathleen were on msn almost permanently during Lily's game.

 

Mafia and suchlike need to react quickly sometimes because they are often at a disadvantage.

 

I have my own complaints about this game - but will share them when it ends.

 

Also - I never blamed you Mynd :) you are a most interesting player to have around and I hope you stay and play some more - you and your snake ;)

 

Looking forward to it - same here.

 

Ithi you have my respect and I consider you a worthy adversary/colleague. Looking forward to our next game.

[amegakure]

i see no reason except for the town which is obvious. I may actually implement that into my game which needs to hurry up soon

[Ithillian Turambar]

Ahhh alas Dear Mynd - this BG game is to be my last for a while. I have to go back to work :( Still SnakeShakin^TM shouldn't be an Ithi only experience

 

When I have more time again I hope you are still here I will also be modding my first game at some point in the BT - nothing too trixy though, if you would care to join I can let you know when it begins.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Also- I have never modded a Mafia Game before - but I have modded a lot of other games. I always thought the purpose of these games was to create a fun and stimulating environment where its players could have fun, not a means of controlling said players.

[Red2111]

Ithi - but as a Mod you have to retain some control over the players to make sure the game progresses and doesn't get out of hand. It's also part of the fun as a mod to be able to read the different QTs.

 

 

Mynd i have to disagree with you on some of your points

 

 

I've played DM mafia games for years off and on, but lately I have noticed a shift that has really tainted the games here.

 

1) Since when have people taken the games so personal? If I call you mafia, its not because I think you are a bad person outside the game, its pure gameplay. Crying about it in the game thread to get sympathy is pathetic. If you can't handle aggressive gameplay, then you shouldn't be playing mafia.

 

 

agreed. not that i want the emo play style banned form Mafia, some find it to be a useful tool to stave off a lynch and gain sympathy support, or to set up a person as a lynch and create misdirection in the game. but people do need to remember that it is just a game. outside of Mafia, you'll find i'm a chillaxed spammy fun going person; but in Mafia i'm a cut throat player who is in it to win it. still, there is a line that has to be drawn between trying to provoke a reaction from a person and personal attacks. luckily, personal attacks don't seem to be an issue here anymore.

 

 

2) Since when have the mafia not been allowed to communicate with each other outside the mafia QT? Like on Skype or email, or alternate QT's? When one of the mafia players is suspected of being recruited to a cult or a town spy, how can the mafia handle this situation?

 

 

this i totally disagree with. game discussion should be kept to the QT board or PM thread (which ever the Mod assigns the players) as a Mafia Mod, if i found a player to be talking outside of the QT i would either kill, or replace that person; it's one of the few rules i'm anal about when i run my games. to me, doing this, especially without the Mods knoweldge, is cheating. if you ask the Mod and they okay the outside thread communication, thats different, because then the Mod knows about it. but talking about the game outside of the QT might ruin the game mechanics the Mod set up.

 

as for if the game has a traitor, infaltrator, spy, ect on the QT, then yes the option shoudl be available for players to make a QT, and invite team mates who they believe aren't ratting them out. but the Mod should recieve the QT link and it should be up to the players to ask if they can make one on the chance they have a feeling one of their team mates is a turn-coat.

 

its one thing to PM a player after your dead in a game to ask them if their scum or not; i think we've all let our curiostiy get the better of us in this way. but discussing/planning/plotting should be kept to the QT's unless the mod decideds otherwise. i'm a very competitive person, maybe more so than others, when i sign up for a game, i sign up to win it. but its no fun winning at the game by cheating, any more so than winning because the town had a bunch of inactives on the list.

 

 

3) Why are moderators so trigger happy with modkilling, especially before they hear from the person they modkilled? Mafia games, especially epic and complicated ones where everyone has a role, will always present situations that the moderator hadn't forseen, but is the answer really to modkill a player for an implied rule that was never clearly stated simply because they found a way around the game setup?

 

 

honestly Mynd i don't know of one Mafia Mod here on DM that is trigger happy where MKs are concerned. so far as i know, we all view MKing as something we dont want to do; but it's something we are sometimes forced to do when a player breaks the rules. some "golden" rules should not be broken imo, talking outside of the game thread without the Mods knowledge while all parties are still playing in the game is one of those golden rules. a rule which applies to every player regaurdless of alignment.

 

honestly, if your looking for a way aroudn the rules you should PM the mod and ask what your about to do is okay, instead of going ahead and doing it. in this since, you treat it like a PR. when you look for ways aroudn a PR, you don't run with what you think is okay, you ask the mod first to make sure you wont be MKd for breaking the PR conditions. imo it's not only common sense, but also common curtesy.

 

 

If this is what DM Mafia has become, then you won't see me around here anymore. I'm sure some of you have no problem with that and are content with sticking your heads in the sand.

 

my responses are in blue.

 

 

in all honesty, i'm still a bit miffed about this, not as much as i was when it happened, but yeah, still a bit peeved over this. Mostly because i have alot of respect for you as a player and a person Mynd. you truely are a great player in this game and it's a blast to be in a game your in and even more so to play in a game you've designed and modded. so no, i don't want you to disappear from DM Mafia at all.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Don't you go putting words in my mouth now Red ....

 

 

 

 

 

Bahahahahaaaa

 

 

I should have said control for the sake of control. I stand corrected. I am looking forward to reading and following the QTs when my game gets to the top of the list.

[Red2111]

lmfao

[Niniel]

I believe that some of this is about a certain game that is going on right now, am I right? If so, then you should discuss some of it after that game has ended. I have never seen any mod here that is trigger happy. In all of the games that I have played here (except for two) the rules has stated that you are not allowed to talk outside the game thread or a qt. The two games where you were allowed to do it specified it because it´s not the usual I guess. I don´t know if this is a new rule but I have played for maybe 8 month and that´s what I have seen.

 

I agree that some people take things too personal sometimes. I have learned not to take things personal, even if it took me some games to learn. But when some people are very aggressive they have to understand that others can play hurt too if they think that will be to their advantage.

[LilyElizabeth]

I've been playing DM mafia for about 2 1/2 years and it's never been a rule to my knowledge that the mafia team can't communicate however they see fit. If that's a rule in a particular game, it needs to be specified for us oldtimers (which I've never considered myself one of until today - thanks for that, guys. :P If a mod modkilled for that and hadn't specified, I wouldn't play in their games anymore - plain and simple.

[Niniel]

You MAY NOT under any circumstances discuss this game except on the game thread or a designated QT thread.

 

I stole that line from Ama´s last game here. It has been in the rules most of the games I have played in at least.

[LilyElizabeth]

See? She specified. That's my point. It may have been a common rule for the last few months, but in my opinion, you don't modkill for a rule that wasn't specified. That's bad modding, in my opinion.

[LilyElizabeth]

One thing I've seen that's new and wrong, in my opinion, is mods getting lazy when writing out their rules. Even though it's never okay to quote your role PM, it's still written in the rules. It's never okay for the town to talk off the game thread (with the exception of my MM games) but it's still written in the rules. So, the bottom line for me is if you don't want players doing it, tell them. That's why we list rules at the beginning of the game. But a mod should never modkill for something that isn't written in their rules.

[Niniel]

Oh, I´m not talking about BG´s game (I haven´t read the rules there, don´t want to talk about an ongoing game). I have seen this rule in many, many games so for me it´s not something I even look for any more. It´s like vote red and bold. We always do it. I can´t speak for games before I started playing here.

[LilyElizabeth]

I'm not involved in BG's game, except as board mod of Thakandar. If I have anything to say on that subject specifically, it would be between BG and me privately. I'm just addressing Mynd's points in general.

[aemonkristen]

I have to add my two cents on this one. I think we all have a personal nemesis that no matter what they say just rubs you the wrong way and it always seems to be a personal attack. If you can't handle someone's play style, DON'T PLAY WITH THAT PERSON! Very simple. As many have mentioned, this is a game and should never be taken personally.

 

Communicating off thread is, normally, reserved for the mafia, but I don't really care much about where they do their talking. I always set up a QT for the team, but if I found out later that they were talking on the phone or Skype or whatever I really wouldn't give a rat's....tail. As a mod it would be nice to be privy to the reactions of the scum team, but it's not vital to the set up of the game.

 

I have only recently come back to the games here, so I don't know about trigger-happy modding.