If you've read George R.R. Martin

[francy]

Sorry - not a WOT or Jordan question here, I hope you guys don't mind!

 

How would you recommend Geroge R.R. Martin as an author? I've never read any of his books, and I want something to sink my teeth into when I've finished my WOT re-read... Whats Song of Ice and Fire about? (I can get the synopsis from Amazon, of course, but I wanted to hear from those who have read it, and read WOT).

 

How involving is it, how well written? Have you read it over and over, the way most of us do WOT? Does he have less / as much / more romantic relationships amongst the characters than Jordan? Or is it more war / battle related? Its not that important to me if there aren't any relationshippy stuff, but I do like it - being a girl!

 

:-)

 

Are the characters and plots, and the world they reside in, as involving as WOT?

 

Who DIDN'T like it, and why?

 

Again, I hope you don't mind me posing questions about a different author here, it is KIND of WOT related! Sort of... In a very small way...

 

:-)

 

Thanks in advance!

 

P.S - if you don't think that much of Martin (or even if you do) who else would you recommend on the same scale as RJ? I've read loads of fantasy, so you'll probably recommend authors I've read as well, but you never know! There are plenty out there I haven't read, so its worth asking!

[Jimvzyl]

Just got into ASoIaF myself, just finished Game of Thrones.

There's more political intrigue- at a complexity that Jordon cant match.

Game of Thrones did bait me quite intensely for the next novel which I need to now go buy. As for a re-read, I would, but what I loved most about GoT is the suspense and mystery that each chapter unveiled. Don't know how that will hold up in a re-read :).

 

I think his world feels a lot more real, and his descriptions (which are very gritty) and the realisms of a medieval society, habit and lifestyle add to that. It feels as if Martin did far more research into medieval societies whereas Jordon did far more research into allegory, myth and religion. I very much doubt that Martin re-engineered his world like Jordon did.

 

In the end it's very 'apples and oranges' - but I think Jordon will be more fun as a re-read.

[Kadere]

Posts like this are supposed to go in the General Discussions board, not the WoT General Discussions Board.

 

George R. R. Martin is a brilliant author. His use of language is incredible, and the depth and breadth of his world is as rich as anything in WoT, some might argue it's richer. There are hundreds of characters, and multiple PoVs from all over his world. Martin is one of the best authors at creating realistic, flawed, complex, fully realized characters.

 

A Song of Ice and Fire is about a kingdom called Westeros and the fight for power between a number of noble families all trying to gain the Iron Throne, or the central governing power of the kingdom. It's loosely based around the War of the Roses in Europe. Also to the North there's a giant 700-foot Wall which protects the realm from the Wildings/Free folk who live beyond and also the Wights who are supernatural undead warriors. Martin mixes magic throughout the series but doesn't focus on it in the same way as say Jordan does in WoT, it's more sprinkled in at first, but becomes more prevalent later.

 

I have read the entire series about 6 times, many people would consider it to be just as involving and addicting as WoT.

 

Now, I have to be honest here, Martin is VERY adult. The series is riddled with incest, rape, brutal death scenes, carnage, beheadings, girls being beaten, torture, and worse. This is not the series where the good guys always make it, this is not the series where the knight in shining armor saves the day. Characters you LOVE will die like flies. Whenever you think things are going good for your heroes, they'll suddenly go super bad. This series is Dark with a capital "D." Are their romantic relationships? Yes, very well written ones in fact, but not all of them turn out so well. Martin is trying to write a REALISTIC story of the Medieval era, and anyone who knows their history knows it wasn't a great time to be around. I can NOT warn you enough that this series is adult.

 

That said, all of that only adds to the desire to keep reading. It makes it incredibly engaging to read, and an amazing experience to go through. Martin is all about pulling you into his world and making it as visceral an experience as he can, and it does it AMAZINGLY! It's a great series, you should definitely give it a try, but it's not necessarily for everyone.

 

Other authors I'd recommend besides George and RJ would be: Patrick Rothfuss, Tad Williams, Steven Erikson, Roger Zelazny, Frank Herbert, and Scott Lynch.

[Sid]

Kadere's synopsis hits the nail on the head.

 

I was repeatedly shocked by what I was reading the first time through, even though each time I thought I had steeled myself for whatever he could possibly throw at me. This series is dark. This series is dense, probably even denser than WoT. This series is awesome.

 

Realistic Medieval era happenings don't involve a precocious peasant girl making fun of a lordling and making him blubber and blunder away in embarrassment while the smallfolk have a good laugh (as some such series might suggest), they involve her getting run over by his carriage or passed around by his guards. Martin's being realistic in this series. Just sayin'. There is, however, a smattering of magic mixed in to completely throw things for a loop. Every new chapter could turn everything you know on its head, actually. Hopefully no one will tell you which ones.

 

Let's just say that when A Dance with Dragons came out last Tuesday, I basically woke up, read, went to work, came home, read, and went to sleep every day until it was done.

 

 

I'd recommend Joe Abercrombie's 'First Law' trilogy in addition to other authors listed in the thread already.

[Ala Rubra]

I will not contend that the books are well written, however I personally did not care for the tone of the series. It was far too dark and depressing. I honestly don't care about how 'realistic' they are, because that kind of cynical realism is not what I, personally, want to read about. That and the fact that there wasn't really any character I actually could get behind and 'cheer' for are the major reasons I don't like it.

 

But, like I said, they are well written.

[Jon Paul]

I would object to it being "realistic". It's only a superficial and exaggerated "realism" of the medieval period. However it's an all right series. I did enjoy it (though I haven't ever been able to re-read it cover-to-cover).

[Rufae]

I don't think they are realitic so much as sadist. GRRM takes his characters and his readers and puts them through a meat grinder. It seems like the more you like a character or the more "good" a character is, the more GRRM likes to torture them.

 

As for worldbuilding in comparison to WOT, I think Wheel of Time is incredibly more in depth. At time GRRM seems to get lost and not know exactly where he wants his story to go. He focuses his story mainly in one country known as the "Seven Kingdoms". A side story takes place in another land. But in terms of richness of world, I think Jordan wins hands down.

 

That being said, it is a good read and an interesting tale. Read it if you like, but be prepared to repair the holes in your walls from where you toss the book around on a regular basis.

[Guest PiotrekS]

aSoIaF is definitely more realistic than WOT, but it does not mean much since WOT was never supposed to be realistic in the first place.

 

I wouldn't say that ASoIaF is very realistic, mainly because even in Middle Ages there were actually people who lived long lives in peace and quiet. Also in Martin's books, there is some weird connection between the sympathy the reader is expected to feel for a certain character and the amount of suffering this character has to face.

 

 

If it is supposed to be realistic, answer me how come a certain blonde queen is still alive? How can fou fight (and make speeches) when pinned to the ground with a spear?...

 

 

As storytelling goes, I have to say that first three tomes of ASoIaF are fantastic. Political intrigue is great, plot is great, worldbuilding is great and the characters are fantastic! I could even risk and say that some characters are more "alive" and human that our fauvorite characters in WOT. The writing is also very good.

 

WOT is much better in terms of general mechanics and metaphysics of the world though. In ASoIaF, there is much less magic than in WOT, but it still exists. There is prophecy. Where does it come from? What are its rules? We don't know it in ASoIaF and at least I have the feeling that magic and metaphysics are introduced rather for plot convenience than becausue it is a part of a well-thought out mecvhanics of the universe.

[Vinny]

I am astonished that so many people think GRRM writes good prose. His amateurish heavy breathing is no better than any number of the supermarket check-out-line "historical blockbuster" paperbacks he has cross-bred garden-variety sword & sorcery with. I have tried several times to read his books but it's the same old heavy-handed, "Nay nay m'lord Garzonikon!" crap you can get from any 800 page paperback with some airbrushed armored dopes on the cover, with or without magic. Katherine Kurtz already did this "realistic, low magic, historical-like epic fantasy" thing in the 1970's, and she did it with brevity, taste & sympathetic characters.

 

Jordan's just as clunky at the writing table but his softer world is easily more appealing than Martin's hilariously overblown "grittiness," which seems to have presaged the whole genre engendered by the film adaptation of "300."

 

So, blech, meh & more meh on top of more blech.

 

Robert Graves did all of this a billion times better with his "I Claudius" novels, and he did it with truly great prose. Nikos Kazantakis did it better with his novels "Alexander The Great" and "The Last Temptation of Christ." Umberto Eco did it better with "Baudolino." Mervyn Peake did it better with "Titus Groan." I could probably make a whole long list of truly literate authors who wrote lo-fi-magic fantasies or fantasy-historicals and did it better than Martin.

 

As far as this genre goes, it's better than average. But the average is so stinking low, that isn't saying much.

[Red2111]

guys watch it on the spoilers, try to tak about the book entirely instead of focusing on characters, we have a spoiler thread for that okay and we don't want to ruin the anticipation and other feelings we all felt by letting new readers know "so & so is still alive" or "i hate that so & so is dead" part of the draw to the series is the unexpected deaths and that you never know who or when a charcter will bite the bullet.

 

 

that said, i've really enjoyed this series. comparing it to WoT imo is bad, it degrades both series and makes you have to say which was better. for me each series is good on it's own account. like others have said, Martin focuses mainly on political manuvering and succession rather than magic; and the magic that is there is still overshadowed by more realistic means. magic isn't the focus of this series at all.

 

Martin is also very discriptive, and the world he builds is one that a reader can relate to easily and slip into rather quickly. the characters he writes are shrouded in grey area rather than black & white; most characters have redeeming qualities and even characters you find yourself rooting for have a darkside to them.

 

his world is dark, and he tends to show the worse side of humanity more than the good side. the books are long and like the WoT pick up rather slow. for me, the EotW didn't pick up until Shadar Logoth, at about the same % way through GoT's it gripped me as well. also like WoT, the books slow down in the middle, building up to a major conflict near the end. and like WoT, this series has the middle books which you find hard to get through but because the story is good you push through them anyways.

 

 

others have said this book is adult, when they say Martin writes about rape, incest and other things most authors shy about they aren't kidding. often you find him describing things that you wish he hadn't and you'll find yourself wishing you can reach into the world and throttle a good many characters either because their just so evil or because their so niave. if your still unsure about this series, HBO made the first book into a show a few months ago called "Game of Thrones" in a few months it should be comming out on DVD and i'd highly suggest snagging it at Blockbuster or Netflix and watching it. HBOP did a wonderful job of gettng the book onto the screen and this will give you a better judge of if you will like the series enought o pick it up more than any reader can.

 

 

i just have two things to warn you about. try not to get attached to characters, if you do just remeber that it's not sure that they will live. the last is that this last book tookd 6 years for Martin to write, so savor the books that you read and know goign in that your gonna have to wait awhile for a new book. word is, Martin has already said he's taking a year break before starting on book 6.

[Red2111]

almost forgot, for other series we've got a few threads floating around this board as well as a pinned "Recommended Reading" thread that has alot of the authors Dmers normally recomend for pickign up after the WoT. we're always looking for new series to add to it, so if you or anyone knows of a series and see's it's not on the list please recomend it!!

 

it goes withou saying that you shoudl try Sandersons other books. personally, i really enjoy YA fantasy as well as Adult; if you can read with that in mid, i can't recomend Narnia, Harry Potter & Percy Jackson enough.

[RyanL24]

I read it, and thought it was alright. My little lady read it. I told her I didn't think she would like it. We were sitting in an airport waiting for our plane, and we were reading. She got to the part where all of her favorite characters were slaughtered. She yelled at me! "Why did you make me read these books!?" I was like hey, I didn't make you. "Why did you LET me read them!?"

 

 

So you know, some people don't like them. RJ was very careful with his precious characters and never let them die. GRRM is worse (better?) than Steve King when it comes to making you love a character and then abruptly killing that character. Be prepared for that.

[Clayden69]

book 1 is ok, i have the 2nd book in front of me and im hoping for an improvement. dont get me wrong the book has some very, very good parts, i was expecting more, damn hype!!

[Rufae]

IMHO, Books 2 and 3 are the best of the series so far. Though I haven't read the latest, Dance with Dragons yet.

[DocBean]

Honestly?

Song of Ice and Fire is superior to Wheel of Time in just about every way, and this is coming from a huge Wheel of Time fan.

 

This is what you get from SOIAF that WoT doesn't deliver:

A fear for the characters you're reading about. Characters die, good and bad, and with very little resurrection unlike the Forsaken.

Religion, Temples, and multiple Languages.

Shades of Gray - characters aren't as black and white as Jordan's

War between humans - There aren't Trollocs or Orcs running around, but there are some supernatural goings on.

A rich history.

Fire, Ice, Rape, Blood, Violence, Death, and Love - and it's actually believable.

Subtle magic - it's there, but it's not ruining everything, people don't get chopped in the face without suffering, scarring, or dying. No magical healers.

Political intrigue.

Mystery

and more...

[Rufae]

Honestly?

Song of Ice and Fire is superior to Wheel of Time in just about every way, and this is coming from a huge Wheel of Time fan.

 

This is what you get from SOIAF that WoT doesn't deliver:

A fear for the characters you're reading about. Characters die, good and bad, and with very little resurrection unlike the Forsaken.

Unless you don't count Khal Drago, The Mountain, Borric, Gray Lady, the Hound, and possibly Onion Knight (off the top of my head)

 

Religion, Temples, and multiple Languages. WoT has Religion buyt no need for Temples. It also has multiple languages (actually more languages than ASoIaF)

Shades of Gray - characters aren't as black and white as Jordan's Fain, Farstrider, Verin, Elaida, Lanfear, Evil Rand/Good Rand, Children of teh Light, Seanchan, et al...all have shades of gray

War between humans - There aren't Trollocs or Orcs running around, but there are some supernatural goings on. Uhm, half the WoT series is war between humans. Not sure what you eman here.

A rich history. Again, you must not have researched WoT history very much to think it is not as rich if not more so than GRRM

Fire, Ice, Rape, Blood, Violence, Death, and Love - and it's actually believable. WoT has all of these actually. And? ALso, how believable is it when GRRM makes some terrible happen to any character who shows any type of goodness. You could bet your house on it.

Subtle magic - it's there, but it's not ruining everything, people don't get chopped in the face without suffering, scarring, or dying. No magical healers. It's so subtle as to be almost nonexsistant until here recently. If you like that, then that is your preference.

Political intrigue. Seanchan, Andor, Cairhienen, Aes Sedai, Borderlanders, Aiel, et al.... all heavily political and plot filled.

Mystery Uhm.... don't see much mystery in ASoIaF. One or two things but that is all.

and more...

[Clayden69]

IMHO, Books 2 and 3 are the best of the series so far. Though I haven't read the latest, Dance with Dragons yet.

 

 

well, i spose thats sumthing to look forward to.... picking up book 2 now ;)

[francy]

Thank you so much, to everyone that has posted so far!

 

I'm glad I asked the question, because while I don't mind if there is incest, rape, etc, but I do have to be in the right frame of mind for it.

 

I remember I was pregnant with my third little bubs when I started reading Brent Weeks Night Angel trilogy. The first couple chapters were tough going, with all the raping, maiming and killing of the "littles" (or did he call them "smalls"? Can't remember now). I think if I had been forewarned on that I would not have read it until I'd had the baby, because - boy. It was tough going!! I persevered, but I didn't start enjoying the book until several chapters in when things started to settle down.

 

Now I'm warned about GRRM, if I'm not in that frame of mind I'll know to reread something more fluffy like David Eddings..

 

LOL

 

I do want something epic, something that doesn't end with the first book, something to get fully involved in. I am not going to like having likable characters killed out from under me, but at least I'm prepared for that now!

 

There are so many differing opinions here, some of you loving it and others hating it. I can't wait to start reading, just to see which I'll be!

 

Thanks again for taking the time - much appreciated!

[Red2111]

with the rape & incest, it's constantly in the background but never in your face. so far in the series, there has yet to be a PoV of a character while being raped. having intercourse yes, but not that. Martin more uses it as a "this happens during war" he includes it enough so the readers knows it's present in the world but it's never a focus.

 

 

the worst bit of rape is one of the characters seeing it happening and stopping it; if that helps any. but it is good to know that it is there *nods*

 

 

 

Sam - i don't recall rape being included in the WoT ... but i agree with the rest of what you wrote.

 

Edit - never mind, there is a bit of rape int he WoT, it's just not as in the forfront as it is in ASoF&I

[Red2111]

i split off the discussion about Comparing & contrasting the two series into a different thread. it's a good discussion but was derailing this topic

[Rufae]

Actually, the exact purpose of Callandor with the Dragon and its role in the Last Battle is a mystery. Rand thinks about this in ToM and asks Min to research the books for theanswer.