What will Egwene do at FOM?

[Majsju]

 

 

"A bunch of memories".. that seems a wholly inadequate way to describe Rand remembering everything Lews Therin himself knew. Rand needs the female channellers to cooperate with him power-wise but there really isn't anything they can tell him. Any scraps of paper they have that mention the Dark One from the AOL is useless as Rand likely knows it already. We're talking about the guy who fought the dastardly thing for ages and then sealed it away (if inadequately, but he cannot be blamed for that).

 

We're talking about the guy who "humbled" Elan Morin Tedronai in the Hall of Servants (I take this to mean they got into a debate when Ishamael announced himself and Lews Therin came out on top, philosophically speaking).

 

He knows the Dark One, he created the very seals he is going to destroy.

 

I was asked earlier in this thread if I'd like a dictatorship of Rand never listening to his advisers.. well.. yea, why not? He's the divinely appointed guardian of existence and was the greatest man in mankind's greatest Age. I think I'd trust him to know what he's doing.

 

 

 

Rand has memories from 3000 years ago, from a completely different battle. Memories from a man who, despite all his strength, skill, über-ta'vereness and all that jazz, failed. Failed so hard that he nearly caused the destruction of the entire world.

 

Sure, having those memories is useful. But relying completely on them would be extremely stupid.

 

As for "Dictator Rand", he went that route in TGS. How did that turn out? Oh, right, he nearly destroyed the world. Starting to sense a theme here...

[Puny]

 

 

"A bunch of memories".. that seems a wholly inadequate way to describe Rand remembering everything Lews Therin himself knew. Rand needs the female channellers to cooperate with him power-wise but there really isn't anything they can tell him. Any scraps of paper they have that mention the Dark One from the AOL is useless as Rand likely knows it already. We're talking about the guy who fought the dastardly thing for ages and then sealed it away (if inadequately, but he cannot be blamed for that).

 

We're talking about the guy who "humbled" Elan Morin Tedronai in the Hall of Servants (I take this to mean they got into a debate when Ishamael announced himself and Lews Therin came out on top, philosophically speaking).

 

He knows the Dark One, he created the very seals he is going to destroy.

 

I was asked earlier in this thread if I'd like a dictatorship of Rand never listening to his advisers.. well.. yea, why not? He's the divinely appointed guardian of existence and was the greatest man in mankind's greatest Age. I think I'd trust him to know what he's doing.

 

 

 

Rand has memories from 3000 years ago, from a completely different battle. Memories from a man who, despite all his strength, skill, über-ta'vereness and all that jazz, failed. Failed so hard that he nearly caused the destruction of the entire world.

 

Sure, having those memories is useful. But relying completely on them would be extremely stupid.

 

As for "Dictator Rand", he went that route in TGS. How did that turn out? Oh, right, he nearly destroyed the world. Starting to sense a theme here...

 

They are not memories from an entirely different battle. Lews Therin tried to seal the Bore back then and with the memories he has of LTT failing in doing so those memories can aid/guide him in what not to do/what to do right this time. So I don´t think it´s right to disgard those memories just because he failed the last time around. And he isn´t relying on them completely. If he did, he´d be at the Bore already doing his thing.

Dark Rand nearly destroyed the world cause he thought strong meant hard, cause he thought he could discard his own feelings, cause he thought he could and should help everyone, cause he didn´t allow himself to feel anything. It was more about his mental/internal state of mind then that he is destined to destroy the world...

[Suttree]

If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet".

 

You are mistaken...

 

ToM "The Amrylin's Anger"

 

"I don't have the answers yet"

 

The quote where he tells Min he needs her to find the answer comes chapters later. So funny how everyone is bringing up the LTT memories as proof to why Rand wouldn't need AS help. Let's look at what actually happens, he straight out tells Min he needs her to find the answer! Now tell me, who would be better suited to that research? a girl from a mining town or the collected library of the WT and thousands of years of AS knowledge!!!

 

It all comes back to why he had to antagonize Egwene into opposing him. We have no clue what the reason is but we can all agree had he gone into the WT, laid out his plan and asked Egwene for help researching the issue there would have been a vastly different reaction.

[AshaShan]

 

The quote where he tells Min he needs her to find the answer comes chapters later. So funny how everyone is bringing up the LTT memories as proof to why Rand wouldn't need AS help. Let's look at what actually happens, he straight out tells Min he needs her to find the answer! Now tell me, who would be better suited to that research? a girl from a mining town or the collected library of the WT and thousands of years of AS knowledge!!!

 

It all comes back to why he had to antagonize Egwene into opposing him. We have no clue what the reason is but we can all agree had he gone into the WT, laid out his plan and asked Egwene for help researching the issue there would have been a vastly different reaction.

 

Rand doesn't want Egwene's help with the Dark One and doesn't respect her opinion on the topic. Why should he? Three millenia of barbaric simpletons aren't going to know more than an indeterminate number of millenia of enlightened technocrats. If LTT's memories don't provide all the answers theres no way a bunch of 3rd Age Aes Sedai are.

 

Min's task is to translate the Prophecies and put them in context, something which a girl who has been seeing the future since she hit puberty is well suited to. She hasn't been asked to, and isn't trying to, find a way to seal the Bore.

 

As to why he wanted to antagonise Egwene... We know from his last POV that the Seals had nothing to do with his visit to the Tower. He doesn't consider Egwene's thoughts on that relevant to what he plans to do. I see two possible motivations. Either he intends for Egwene to confront him publically and usurp his authority, which he will allow happen the better to hand over the reigns of power to someone who would be seen by the casual observer to have bested him. Or he intends for Egwene to confront him publically and be bested herself, thereby breaking the White Towers authority over those assembled at Merrilor.

[Suttree]

 

The quote where he tells Min he needs her to find the answer comes chapters later. So funny how everyone is bringing up the LTT memories as proof to why Rand wouldn't need AS help. Let's look at what actually happens, he straight out tells Min he needs her to find the answer! Now tell me, who would be better suited to that research? a girl from a mining town or the collected library of the WT and thousands of years of AS knowledge!!!

 

It all comes back to why he had to antagonize Egwene into opposing him. We have no clue what the reason is but we can all agree had he gone into the WT, laid out his plan and asked Egwene for help researching the issue there would have been a vastly different reaction.

 

Rand doesn't want Egwene's help with the Dark One and doesn't respect her opinion on the topic. Why should he? Three millenia of barbaric simpletons aren't going to know more than an indeterminate number of millenia of enlightened technocrats. If LTT's memories don't provide all the answers theres no way a bunch of 3rd Age Aes Sedai are.

 

Min's task is to translate the Prophecies and put them in context, something which a girl who has been seeing the future since she hit puberty is well suited to. She hasn't been asked to, and isn't trying to, find a way to seal the Bore.

 

Really? Perhaps you should read the whole thread...no he isn't asking for help with the bore at all

 

ToM "For What Has Been Wrought"

 

"I need you, Min"...."You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me"

[dexterryu]

I think what she is planning to do and what she will actually do are very different.

 

What I believe she wants to so is to stop Rand from breaking the seals. Not sure what her alternate plan is or how she plans to win the LB, but I think it's pretty obvious she is planning on stopping him.

 

However.

 

What will most likely ultimately happen is that she is likely going up against the Taveren affects of not just Rand, but also Perrin (who is also for Rands plan if I recall), and probably Mat too. The three of them are probably enough to influence just about everyone involved.

 

If not, it's pretty obvious that Nyneave is going to join Rand, and most likely either Moiraine too. So it really won't matter.

[Guest PiotrekS]

If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet".

 

You are mistaken...

 

ToM "The Amrylin's Anger"

 

"I don't have the answers yet"

 

Well, thanks for pointing this out! I was really sure this little word was there...But it does not really change much.

 

The quote where he tells Min he needs her to find the answer comes chapters later. So funny how everyone is bringing up the LTT memories as proof to why Rand wouldn't need AS help. Let's look at what actually happens, he straight out tells Min he needs her to find the answer! Now tell me, who would be better suited to that research? a girl from a mining town or the collected library of the WT and thousands of years of AS knowledge!!!

 

It all comes back to why he had to antagonize Egwene into opposing him. We have no clue what the reason is but we can all agree had he gone into the WT, laid out his plan and asked Egwene for help researching the issue there would have been a vastly different reaction.

 

The Aes Sedai have not shown themselves to be especially wise in terms of AoL knowledge. Those who could be most helpful are either dead or out of the Tower.

 

Recall the scene when Min interprets a part of the prophecies concerning Callandor and is mocked by one of Aes Sedai - then Caduane actually tells them it was Min who understood it correctly! You attitude towards Min is dangerously close to the attitude of that Aes Sedai sister Suttree This "girl from a mining town" has proved herself smarther than a whole lot of White Tower women.

[Suttree]

The Aes Sedai have not shown themselves to be especially wise in terms of AoL knowledge. Those who could be most helpful are either dead or out of the Tower.

 

Recall the scene when Min interprets a part of the prophecies concerning Callandor and is mocked by one of Aes Sedai - then Caduane actually tells them it was Min who understood it correctly! You attitude towards Min is dangerously close to the attitude of that Aes Sedai sister Suttree This "girl from a mining town" has proved herself smarther than a whole lot of White Tower women.

 

Would that be those same AS that when put to the task unearthed enough info on Mesaana to ensure Egwene would be able to trap and defeat her? Even for AS out of the tower Moiraine still showed how useful they can be to the AS cause as when she visited Vandene and Adeleas. Do you imagine that with dreaming Egwene couldn't use that resource to supplement the sisters in the tower?

 

No far from having similar thinking to that AS, I understand that to infer that since Min was more correct about one part of a prophecy in relation to one AS, does not mean she has proved herself smarter than entire WT. That is extremely faulty logic on your part.

[XXX]

The Aes Sedai have not shown themselves to be especially wise in terms of AoL knowledge. Those who could be most helpful are either dead or out of the Tower.

 

Recall the scene when Min interprets a part of the prophecies concerning Callandor and is mocked by one of Aes Sedai - then Caduane actually tells them it was Min who understood it correctly! You attitude towards Min is dangerously close to the attitude of that Aes Sedai sister Suttree This "girl from a mining town" has proved herself smarther than a whole lot of White Tower women.

 

Would that be those same AS that when put to the task unearthed enough info on Mesaana to ensure Egwene would be able to trap and defeat her? Even for AS out of the tower Moiraine still showed how useful they can be to the AS cause as when she visited Vandene and Adeleas. Do you imagine that with dreaming Egwene couldn't use that resource to supplement the sisters in the tower?

 

No far from having similar thinking to that AS, I understand that to infer that since Min was more correct about one part of a prophecy in relation to one AS, does not mean she has proved herself smarter than entire WT. That is extremely faulty logic on your part.

 

 

Rand obviously thinks an Egwene led WT is utterly useless to his needs and that Min is a better option. The WT as an organization has been proved useless again and again throughout the series. Most AS achievement is through individual drive..Cads/Moraine/Ny etc and not through any direction of the tower.

 

In this case..Min knows a lot more about callender and the prophecies than the AS..this has been proved right by Egwene's wrong decision(and unanimous among the AS) to oppose Rand in breaking the seals.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The Aes Sedai have not shown themselves to be especially wise in terms of AoL knowledge. Those who could be most helpful are either dead or out of the Tower.

 

Recall the scene when Min interprets a part of the prophecies concerning Callandor and is mocked by one of Aes Sedai - then Caduane actually tells them it was Min who understood it correctly! You attitude towards Min is dangerously close to the attitude of that Aes Sedai sister Suttree This "girl from a mining town" has proved herself smarther than a whole lot of White Tower women.

 

Would that be those same AS that when put to the task unearthed enough info on Mesaana to ensure Egwene would be able to trap and defeat her? Even for AS out of the tower Moiraine still showed how useful they can be to the AS cause as when she visited Vandene and Adeleas. Do you imagine that with dreaming Egwene couldn't use that resource to supplement the sisters in the tower?

 

No far from having similar thinking to that AS, I understand that to infer that since Min was more correct about one part of a prophecy in relation to one AS, does not mean she has proved herself smarter than entire WT. That is extremely faulty logic on your part.

Egwene was able to defeat Mesaana and live because Perrin brought the Dreamspike to the Tower and Gawyn defeated the Blood Knives. She had ta'veren class luck in that, the information she got from the sisters was pretty useless.

 

But that's beside the point. I wasn't trying to logically prove that Min was smarter than entire WT, it was just an example of Min's intelligence and fresh way of thinking in matters of interpretation of the prophecy and pretty standarized and old-fashioned way of thinking of most Aes Sedai. Min was able to interpret the prophecy better than the educated and full of herself Aes Sedai sister, surely it tells us something about both Min and the Aes Sedai?

 

As has been repeatedly pointed out, most of the the most helpful, wise and reliable sisters could be found outside the Tower. Now some are dead (Adeleas, Vandene, Verin), others are out of the Tower still (Moiraine, Cadsuane). Nynaeve is not very integrated into the WT, Siuan is no longer a character in her own right and is reduced to singing Egwene's praises. Sisters outside the Tower are not immediately available to Egwene and she does not use their input in her decision making process (to her credit, she brought Nynaeve in - and still did not treat her advice seriously!)

 

I'm not saying the Aes Sedai knowledge and resources could not prove helpful. But the Aes Sedai can no longer claim to be superior to other players in the market of ideas and knowledge. Rand's memories from the Age of Legends are invaluable. If in doubt, consider how much of the Aes Sedai knowledge consists of some fragments and memories from the AoL - some pages of the books that survived, old ter'angreal nobody remembers the original purpose of etc. Rand remembers lots of things they could only guess or try to imagine. They are old and faded copies, he's the original.

 

They will work together in the end though, it won't be a tragic ending after all.

[Kahsm]

Basically Majsju has it right, except for the silliness about Egwene haters. This strikes me as a reasonable question with which to begin a thread.

 

I don't agree with Kael about the ta'veren thing. We have no evidence whatsoever that ta'veren effect has no impact if you are already inclined in a particular direction. None. We do have evidence that ta'veren power isn't something that can be consciously "used" (or abused). We do have evidence that Egwene felt exactly the same physical effects that others who have come under ta'veren influence felt. Why write about her dizziness if it doesn't mean anything? Practically the definition of Chekhov's Gun.

 

Ok this is just dumb now... let me walk you through it. If you are ta'veren and I hate ice cream and you say "let's go for icecream", I'll say yes, even though I hate icecream, because I'm weak willed. I get all dizzy after and am like wtf I hate icecream!

 

Now let's say I love icecream, and you ask "Let's go for icecream". I say yes because it's what I am inclined to to. Your ta'veren effect has nothing to do. I still get dizzy sure cause I was caught in your whirlpool, but I was already going to go that way.

 

You are completely missing the point. We are not talking about a decision Egwene would never have made. Of course this was one option she would have considered. One option of many.

 

The actual decision she made is however just a part of it. Another part, and one I consider far bigger) is the process of reaching that decision. She immidiatly accepts it, and does not stop for a second to consider what other options there are, so she can weigh them against eachother to see which one is the most optimal. Something Egwene would normally have done.

 

Look at all the pieces here. We know from the other Aes sedai that Rands ta'veren pull is in full gear during the meeting. We know she made the exact decision Rand wanted her to make. We see her reach that decision in a way that is completely out of character. And we see her feel typical effects from one directly influenced by a ta'veren.

 

And yet we are supposed it was just a coincidene? That it was just dumb luck that she picked the right decision? Maybe if she momentarily switched soul with Mat.

... yes Egwene is so very thoughtful and purposeful in her actions, just like Perrin. Are you nuts?

 

Also, there is no other option. Rand said he was going to do something that anyone in this age would think is insane. There is no other option but to try and convince him not to do it. And since she already tried to tell him not to do it herself, there's no other option but to increase her moral authority by gaining the support of nations. So I guess, yes, it's a "coincidence" as you say that he manipulated her into doing what he wanted through his words and actions.

 

Bottom line, you still have not explained why he would bother manipulating her if his ta'veren-ness was all he needed. Why play an Aes Sedai's game when he never has before? Answer: It didn't work on Tuon, and he figured it wouldn't work on Egwene either. Rand makes it pretty clear he knew what she would do because of his manipulation, her actions are the obvious ones she would make because of what he told her, and how he told her. Not because he's Ta'veren.

 

Rand may or may not have any idea...we know Egwene does not know ANYTHING about the bore or the seals.

 

That is hardly the point of the thread..Egwene said that she "hopes that he does not force her hand"...what "hand" would that be. Try to take on the Dragon in an OP fight?

 

Oh stop being ridiculous, she could have meant any number of rather benign things as I suggested. And personally I always assumed she just meant force her hand into parading the monarchs and leaders she thinks she can gather infront of rand. And she says it that way because she doesn't want to be, or be seen opposing Rand on anything. So he's forcing her hand into making it very, very public. That is all.

 

How exactly that does stop him from breaking the seal?...I don't understand.

 

Already all the monarchs she has asked to come to the field know she is opposing Rand...so what is new in parading them?

You don't understand because the concept of debate, actually listening to someone else's side, is beyond you.

 

They have come to he field, that doesn't make it official or public to the masses that there's a divide. It's entirely possible that she hopes her hand is not forced into doing something that could hurt the tower even further, but something she would have to do anyway, like making it public that she doesn't support the Dragon's plan. That could be quite bad because some people might confuse her opposition to one thing as complete opposition to the Dragon himself. Even if that is utterly ridiculous, some people think that way. Crazy, I know.

 

Do you honestly think Elayne will make a Domination Band for Egwene or something? Even if you don't agree with this one, which is fine it was just an opinion. There are still a bajillion other rather benign things it could be. And she could very well mean her forced hand would not actually hurt the Dragon but the Tower because she has to stand on principal instead of doing what's popular.

 

See a lot of politicians will run on something counter to their actual beliefs because it's popular, instead of doing the leaderly thing and actually convincing people that your way is better. And if they still don't agree and don't vote for you, so be it. Running on the flavour of the week is stupid, cowardly, and manipulative.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet".

 

You are mistaken...

 

ToM "The Amrylin's Anger"

 

"I don't have the answers yet"

 

Well, thanks for pointing this out! I was really sure this little word was there...But it does not really change much.

 

The quote where he tells Min he needs her to find the answer comes chapters later. So funny how everyone is bringing up the LTT memories as proof to why Rand wouldn't need AS help. Let's look at what actually happens, he straight out tells Min he needs her to find the answer! Now tell me, who would be better suited to that research? a girl from a mining town or the collected library of the WT and thousands of years of AS knowledge!!!

 

It all comes back to why he had to antagonize Egwene into opposing him. We have no clue what the reason is but we can all agree had he gone into the WT, laid out his plan and asked Egwene for help researching the issue there would have been a vastly different reaction.

 

The Aes Sedai have not shown themselves to be especially wise in terms of AoL knowledge. Those who could be most helpful are either dead or out of the Tower.

 

Recall the scene when Min interprets a part of the prophecies concerning Callandor and is mocked by one of Aes Sedai - then Caduane actually tells them it was Min who understood it correctly! You attitude towards Min is dangerously close to the attitude of that Aes Sedai sister Suttree This "girl from a mining town" has proved herself smarther than a whole lot of White Tower women.

Uhh, no one said Min should stop, but why not add more people? One Aes Sedai disagreed, Cads confirmed. The system works. If it was just Min you'd have no idea if she were right or wrong. Now you can be more certain.

 

The Aes Sedai have not shown themselves to be especially wise in terms of AoL knowledge. Those who could be most helpful are either dead or out of the Tower.

 

Recall the scene when Min interprets a part of the prophecies concerning Callandor and is mocked by one of Aes Sedai - then Caduane actually tells them it was Min who understood it correctly! You attitude towards Min is dangerously close to the attitude of that Aes Sedai sister Suttree This "girl from a mining town" has proved herself smarther than a whole lot of White Tower women.

 

Would that be those same AS that when put to the task unearthed enough info on Mesaana to ensure Egwene would be able to trap and defeat her? Even for AS out of the tower Moiraine still showed how useful they can be to the AS cause as when she visited Vandene and Adeleas. Do you imagine that with dreaming Egwene couldn't use that resource to supplement the sisters in the tower?

 

No far from having similar thinking to that AS, I understand that to infer that since Min was more correct about one part of a prophecy in relation to one AS, does not mean she has proved herself smarter than entire WT. That is extremely faulty logic on your part.

 

 

Rand obviously thinks an Egwene led WT is utterly useless to his needs and that Min is a better option. The WT as an organization has been proved useless again and again throughout the series. Most AS achievement is through individual drive..Cads/Moraine/Ny etc and not through any direction of the tower.

 

In this case..Min knows a lot more about callender and the prophecies than the AS..this has been proved right by Egwene's wrong decision(and unanimous among the AS) to oppose Rand in breaking the seals.

Obviously he thinks Egwene is utterly useless, that's why he went to her needing her to do something we assume only she could do, or he wouldn't have gone to her at all. Really? You're just getting crazy now.

[Suttree]

In this case..Min knows a lot more about callender and the prophecies than the AS..this has been proved right by Egwene's wrong decision(and unanimous among the AS) to oppose Rand in breaking the seals.

 

I'm sorry, you're taking Egwene's course of action to make a comparative decision on the relative knowledge between two entirely different groups of people? You didn't happen to study all that much logic in college did you xxx?

 

I'm not saying the Aes Sedai knowledge and resources could not prove helpful. But the Aes Sedai can no longer claim to be superior to other players in the market of ideas and knowledge. Rand's memories from the Age of Legends are invaluable. If in doubt, consider how much of the Aes Sedai knowledge consists of some fragments and memories from the AoL - some pages of the books that survived, old ter'angreal nobody remembers the original purpose of etc. Rand remembers lots of things they could only guess or try to imagine. They are old and faded copies, he's the original.

 

 

Which of course doesn't touch on the most important thing. Even with all that knowledge Rand admits he doesn't know how to do it and has asked for help! Now Kael made a good point in showing what happens when they work together. Min put forth a theory and Cads confirmed it. Without AS help no one would have none she was right.

[buckeyebull64]

Rand wants and needs Min's input because he can trust Min. AS may very well know very relevant things concerning the topic at hand, but who is to say what the AS would do with that information? Would they hold it back? twist it?make it seem like something else entirely? All seem like very As things to do, no matter who's side you're on.

 

Further more, I figure Rand didn't explain his plan to Egwene because the FoM is about far more than the Dragon and the White Tower. Rand is using Egwene to gather everybody who isn't Dark or Seanchan while he's preparing (which likely entails searching for answers). The meeting at the FoM is going to be about the Dragon, his armies, a second pattern-bender, the WT, several nations, both under rand's control and not, and last but not...well, ok, least...the Whitecloaks.

 

My point is Rand is not going to tell one party anything more than he's going to tell another party. If two of the major powers present seem to be working together, it puts all the others on edge for how they might be manipulated during the meeting.

[XXX]

 

Obviously he thinks Egwene is utterly useless, that's why he went to her needing her to do something we assume only she could do, or he wouldn't have gone to her at all. Really? You're just getting crazy now.

 

He needed her to bring the AS along because they are stupid and head strong and won't swear to the Dragon as the rest of Randland has done.

[XXX]

 

 

I'm sorry, you're taking Egwene's course of action to make a comparative decision on the relative knowledge between two entirely different groups of people? You didn't happen to study all that much logic in college did you xxx?

 

 

 

My logic is fine..Min knows a lot more about the seals compared to Egwene..period.

 

Has Egwene even seen an intact seal?

[buckeyebull64]

^...yes, at the eye

 

I would assume Egwene knows a little-to-medium amount, being force-fed history by Siuan. She is the "watcher of the seals" after all, even if it's symbolic at this point, those two would know where that came from.

 

I think the biggest thing Min has over Egwene (to Rand, at least) is that Min will actually reveal everything she knows, rather than whatever Egwene might do with the info.

[Clayden69]

Rand: Hello Mother, how are you?? I have a question for you Egwene Al'Vere, Flame of Tar Valon, if you were to build a house and this house collapsed because it wasn't built properly and was missing a certain component in the original design, would u build up the house again using the original design or would clear away the rubble and find the missing component??

 

Egwene: Why, you clear away the rubble and find the missing component....

 

Rand(smiles and looks over Egwenes shoulder): I'm glad to see you have bought ur daughters,Mother

[Guest PiotrekS]

I'm not saying the Aes Sedai knowledge and resources could not prove helpful. But the Aes Sedai can no longer claim to be superior to other players in the market of ideas and knowledge. Rand's memories from the Age of Legends are invaluable. If in doubt, consider how much of the Aes Sedai knowledge consists of some fragments and memories from the AoL - some pages of the books that survived, old ter'angreal nobody remembers the original purpose of etc. Rand remembers lots of things they could only guess or try to imagine. They are old and faded copies, he's the original.

 

 

Which of course doesn't touch on the most important thing. Even with all that knowledge Rand admits he doesn't know how to do it and has asked for help! Now Kael made a good point in showing what happens when they work together. Min put forth a theory and Cads confirmed it. Without AS help no one would have none she was right.

 

Of course I agree with Kael's point - the more everybody works together, the better. We argue IMHO only about the relative importance of the Aes Sedai in the final resolution, not whether they will have any importance at all. I think that Egwnene's and White Tower's power and knowledge is not so much larger than the others' and the Aes Sedai should not lead hummanity in the Last Battle. Therefore, I think that Egwene should not have decisive vote on how to seal the Bore, but can offer any advice she likes.

 

Even when you point out gaps in Rand's knowledge, it does not remedy even bigger gaps in what Aes Sedai and Egwene know. If Rand has no answers yet, the Aes Sedai are not even shown as looking for any answers. How could they know how to ameliorate the procedure for sealing the Bore, when they do not even know the original method used by LTT?

 

The issue of trust has been rightly raised. Rand has no reason to trust Egwene and that might have caused his close-mouthness in the WT.

[Suttree]

 

 

I'm sorry, you're taking Egwene's course of action to make a comparative decision on the relative knowledge between two entirely different groups of people? You didn't happen to study all that much logic in college did you xxx?

 

 

 

My logic is fine..Min knows a lot more about the seals compared to Egwene..period.

 

Has Egwene even seen an intact seal?

 

Ooooookkkkk, that's what you meant? Excuse me for not understanding because what you said was...

 

In this case..Min knows a lot more about callender and the prophecies than the AS..

 

Which seeing how Min needed an AS to actually confirm her theory, is patently false.

 

The issue of trust has been rightly raised. Rand has no reason to trust Egwene and that might have caused his close-mouthness in the WT.

 

I don't think it is an issue of trust, Rand plainly manipulated Eggy and that was the reason for him being close mouthed. He was spurring her to action, I guess we will find out why in AMoL.

[XXX]

^...yes, at the eye

 

I would assume Egwene knows a little-to-medium amount, being force-fed history by Siuan. She is the "watcher of the seals" after all, even if it's symbolic at this point, those two would know where that came from.

 

I think the biggest thing Min has over Egwene (to Rand, at least) is that Min will actually reveal everything she knows, rather than whatever Egwene might do with the info.

 

 

She saw a broken seal at the Eye. I don't think she has ever seen a intact seal though I may be wrong. She is some "watcher of the seals" lol.

[XXX]

 

 

I'm sorry, you're taking Egwene's course of action to make a comparative decision on the relative knowledge between two entirely different groups of people? You didn't happen to study all that much logic in college did you xxx?

 

 

 

My logic is fine..Min knows a lot more about the seals compared to Egwene..period.

 

Has Egwene even seen an intact seal?

 

Ooooookkkkk, that's what you meant? Excuse me for not understanding because what you said was...

 

In this case..Min knows a lot more about callender and the prophecies than the AS..

 

Which seeing how Min needed an AS to actually confirm her theory, is patently false.

 

Ok..Min knows a lot more than Egwene...happy?

[David Selig]

She saw a broken seal at the Eye. I don't think she has ever seen a intact seal though I may be wrong. She is some "watcher of the seals" lol.

She's seen intact seals at least twice - at the end of TDR when Moiraine showed her, and at the start of TFOH, when Moiraine showed a seal to Rand to demonstrate it's not unbreakable anymore and Egwene was present.

[buckeyebull64]

XXX, your right. for some reason i thought it was intact but fragile. my bad

[XXX]

The thread has been completely derailed on purpose I suspect by Egwene fans into what Rand and Egwene know about the seals/bore etc.

 

The point of the thread is how is Egwene going to stop Rand from breaking the seals. I can almost bet that she will do something stupid and it will not be a hissy fit like some are claiming here. Min's viewing said that Rand will be hurt by AS atleast twice...I am guessing that the second time the AS turn on him will be at FoM. Of course it will end with Egwene eating crow one way or the other.

[David Selig]

No, Min's viewing was that Rand would be hurt by "women who could channel" more than once. Galina's group and Semirhage already fulfilled it. Of course it could happen again, but it's not certain.