The Eye

[buckeyebull64]

The horn of valare thread got me thinking: what exactly was the reasoning behind creating a giant well of clean saidin? Everyone involved died in the process, and the feat seem to have very little real impact.

 

I imagine the horn (or banner, or seal) could have been protected in much the same way as the sword that is not a sword, so that purpose must have been secondary.

 

Those who made it had to know that there wouldn't be enough there to do anything entirely earth shattering: Rand briefly rained death on some trollocs and took a single swing of power-sword at Ishy, granted it was after Aringor stole some. (Which leads to the question: why would a forsaken want to channel a pool of untainted saidin if he has the DO's protection from the taint?)

[BananaOnDrugs]

There could'v been some prophesies about the world being destroyed if they didn't do something like this (we know that the Aes Sedai that created the Eye had some of those) which likely would have happened(Aginor kills Rand => DO kills Randland). On the other hand Rand would have never been able to channel enough to wound Ishy/whoever that was and temporarily restore the natural order of the seasons. A winter as long as it was was bad enough already. Imagine Randland giving resistance to the trollocs after say 3 years of winter. It would have been instant win for the DO.

About the Aginor thingy...well who's to say if channelling saidin while connected to the DO doesn't give him a bad headache or something. There's also the possibility that drawing from the Eye was like drawing from an angreal...only without the buffer to stop one from burning oneself from the true source. Which could explain both Aginor pwning himself and Ishy/whoever that was's comment that Rand shouldn't draw that much of the power even though Rand still could barely touch it(he still couldn't draw much more power than to make a single lightning) and there not being a headache mentioned when he does => he could either draw enough power to kill a few thousand trollocs but barely enough for a lightning or the eye being a hybrid between a well and an angreal.

OR: RJ didn't have the minor details like the Eye completely figured out when he wrote it and changed some stuff in the next books therefore one shouldn't look at it much.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

RJ answered the question about Aginor; I don't remember the specifics, but I think he said something along the lines of the Forsaken wanting some Power that the Dark One didn't monitor or control. Could someone post a link? As for the rest of it, I suspect it may have been a plot point that didn't go anywhere, lost in the shuffle of an evolving story that was origionally planned as a trilogy and intented to let the first book be stand-alone if needed. Or maybe it had some awesome purpose that will be revealed in AMOL

My own crazy theory is that Rand is now in touch with the Light, and he needed Power untainted by the Shadow to start him on the journey. BS did say that it was significant that Rand was described as using "Light and Power" in ToM, and this echoes the wording from the fight at the Eye. Guess we'll RAFO...

[jsbrads]

Okay, there was a lot I didn't understand there

 

I don't know why but I thought it was Green man who brought spring...

 

The Forsaken could have just messed with Eye to take it from Rand, not for any personal benefit or more likely a well (certainly one that size) would be just like having a saangreal, namely one channels through it and draws more power than they could unaided.

 

Yeah I think the well was for Rand to blast the seals with balefire before they starting cracking and letting out Forsaken, he got there a little late. Had he blasted the seals with clean saidin balefire they would have strengthened until he could figure out how to solve the problem more permanently, without having to fight Forsaken left a right. then he figures out how to seal bore permanently, goes to Shayol ghul for a weekend battle royale, smashes the seals and gets to fixing it all and done before 11:30am on Sunday (Carmageddon reference).

[Pug]

Had Rand just blasted the seals with balefire and the seals get super charged then would he have learned how to use the One Power? For is was Asmodean who taught him.

[BananaOnDrugs]

I don't know why but I thought it was Green man who brought spring...

 

The nymphs have certain power over life but changing the seasons is another matter entirely. It's true that they can counter the effect of the DO but to my understanding that is so only with living things.

[rand4747]

It was probably Rand who corrected the seasons with the power. He would have been severly out doing his max strength with the power and was so close to destroying himself. He might have also tapped into something from Lews Therin, since just re reading I found his first contact with Lews Therin was in Fal Dara in the Great Hunt After hes returned from the eye. Although Rand probably just thought he was thinking to himself.

[Superhal]

The way I took it was that it was a trap to guard the Horn and Banner. Only the DR could safely drain the well and recover the items. Maybe there was a prophecy that the DR would use it as Rand did against the Forsaken.

[jsbrads]

Rand would have more time and no baddies to kill, he could hang on until he meets Logain again, or Mazrim also...

he eventually would have channeled long enough to reach the point where the madness would seep in and the separation between him and LTT would thin, then he should be okay too.

 

I does not make sense that Rand healed the weather (though my theory that the green man fixed it is just as hard to imagine, his unnamed powers and his death may be responsible). We know that Rand could not have fixed it, something that big required a whole network of weather manipulating terangreal in age of legends and in our time is accomplished by a circle of thirteen of the most powerful women using three angreal and a huge terangreal...

 

Alternated theory DO was still trying to push that boulder up the hill when Rand tickled his nose and he failed for an itch, later had to start over again and again.

[buckeyebull64]

My personal theory of the first book weather fixing was that it was Ishy doing the work somehow, rather than the actual DO, like it was later in the books. A couple reasons:

 

1)Too early: not even all the forsaken are free at this point.

2)Not as dramatic: winter just lasted longer. Wasn't mentioned to be overly cold, windy, etc. the summer that the DO fixed horrendious and commented on by just about everyone.

3)Ishy likely has a stash of some one power goodies, some with which to mess with the weather. they wouldnt have to be as strong as the bowl, since, by principle destruction takes less effort than repair.

 

But after Rand got his hands on Ishy at the end of the first book, Ishy was out of commission for a short time. What ever injury Rand gave him, physically or metaphysically, it doesn't seem like it was a quick heal.

[Suttree]

(Which leads to the question: why would a forsaken want to channel a pool of untainted saidin if he has the DO's protection from the taint?)

 

Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.

[Didgya]

Okay, there was a lot I didn't understand there

 

I don't know why but I thought it was Green man who brought spring...

 

The Forsaken could have just messed with Eye to take it from Rand, not for any personal benefit or more likely a well (certainly one that size) would be just like having a saangreal, namely one channels through it and draws more power than they could unaided.

 

Yeah I think the well was for Rand to blast the seals with balefire before they starting cracking and letting out Forsaken, he got there a little late. Had he blasted the seals with clean saidin balefire they would have strengthened until he could figure out how to solve the problem more permanently, without having to fight Forsaken left a right. then he figures out how to seal bore permanently, goes to Shayol ghul for a weekend battle royale, smashes the seals and gets to fixing it all and done before 11:30am on Sunday (Carmageddon reference).

What! A Carmageddon reference! That game kicked *'s

Anyway on topic...confused if joking?

[SylvanFox]

I thought the well was not used for exactly what it was intended to do. It was found pretty deep in the Blight, and people made it like 3,000 years ago. Maybe people put it as close to Shayol Ghul as they dared to go for a reason: they thought that the Dragon Reborn would use it to seal the DO's prison at the Last Battle and the clean saidin would hopefully prevent him from breaking the world. 3,000 years of people thinking that it is the weapon that will win the Last Battle made them expect a lot more out of it.

[Kahsm]

I thought the well was not used for exactly what it was intended to do. It was found pretty deep in the Blight, and people made it like 3,000 years ago. Maybe people put it as close to Shayol Ghul as they dared to go for a reason: they thought that the Dragon Reborn would use it to seal the DO's prison at the Last Battle and the clean saidin would hopefully prevent him from breaking the world. 3,000 years of people thinking that it is the weapon that will win the Last Battle made them expect a lot more out of it.

 

You are correct, RJ said it was not.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 4 August 1996, Durham, NC - Robyn "Hawk" Goldstein reporting

 

I asked him exactly why the pool of untainted saidin was needed at the Eye of the World. He kind of gave me a RAFO. RJ said that he has an idea of what he wants that to have been for, but he's not sure he's going to use it, so he didn't want to give me information and then change his mind later.

 

So if it's used by BS or not, we know there was certainly another purpose in mind.

 

Also, it was made very soon after the bore was sealed because there were still men sane enough to help make it. So I'm not sure how much of the "Breaking" had happened yet. The original location could have been very different.

 

Plus in my other thread I suggest that it's actually in TAR and the location is nearly irrelevant. Loil says none who have found it ever found it the same place, but that it was always found over the mountains. But Rand and Co. actually enter it before the mountains, presumably because they were about to be run-down and their need was even greater. So who knows how far south you could still step into it if the need was great enough. The blight could have been a test of that need, of sorts, by the green man.

 

Edit: Also, regarding it's actual purpose. BS kinda suggests the light and power references are something to do with the eye of the world. And if he's correct in that (he wasn't certain) and Light & Power from tEotW is the same at Maradon, then his uber-ness could actually be man-made (Aes Sedai made the pool) and not a function of being Champion of the Light.

 

References:

Jeff Edde on Twitter - 12 January 2011

Can Rand channel Light & Power as a result of touching the EotW, or does he have access to it because he is who he is?

Brandon

It was the power in the Eye, so far as I know.

Jeff Edde: Interesting. In EotW, Rand uses Light & Power. Is it significant that he uses Light & power again in ToM?

Brandon: Yes.

[aaron11]

I always thought that it was to force Rand's potential to reach its max as soon as possible. Not sure if this is what it was intended to do originally but it was a needed side effect.

[Kahsm]

I always thought that it was to force Rand's potential to reach its max as soon as possible. Not sure if this is what it was intended to do originally but it was a needed side effect.

 

Well, I don't think the Eye has any angreal-like effects... at least not the way an angreal works. A weaker channeler would just take longer to use it up. Or blow themselves up trying *cough* It's a super condensed well.

[Dastion]

My theory is that The Eye was an inoculation against the taint on Saidin. Or, at least, a buffer to protect him from the madness. They used cleansed saidin to administer the protection just as the DO uses tainted Saidin to cause men to go mad. Just that the DO is powerful enough to have tainted all of Saidin, while it took the deaths of many Aes Sedai just to provide the small amount to protect Rand that he blew through in minutes.

 

How else do you explain how Rand was able to channel so much of Saidin at Shadar Logoth without going mad? When Nynaeve discovered how to heal madness from the taint on saidin she delved Rand and saw the mass of blackness she couldn't even begin to try healing. Yet she also noticed the pulsing light beneath it, seemingly keeping it from his mind.

 

I think many assumed this had something to do with the new Zen Rand, but it's just too improbable that he could have gone all that time without showing some effect. What little we have seen that makes Rand seem remotely as if he is losing it appears to just be the side effects of the massive amounts of stress he is under, and a confirmation bias of those who observe him ("Oh, he's laughing at an odd time. He must be going mad.").

 

It seems clear to me that RJ as an Author had to look ahead, and knowing that he had a main character that needed to not go crazy in the series he would need something to explain it other than, "He's the Dragon." since part of the story arc revolves around his predecessor falling prey to the madness.

[Kahsm]

My theory is that The Eye was an innoculuation against the taint on Saidin. Or, at least, a buffer to protect him from the madness. They used cleansed saidin to administer the protection just as the DO uses tainted Saidin to cause men to go mad. Just that the DO is powerful enough to have tainted all of Saidin, while it took the deaths of many Aes Sedai just to provide the small amount to protect Rand that he blew through in minutes.

 

How else do you explain how Rand was able to channel so much of Saidin at Shadar Logoth without going mad? When Nynaeve discovered how to heal madness from the taint on saidin she delved Rand and saw the mass of blackness she couldn't even begin to try healing. Yet she also noticed the pulsing light beneath it, seemingly keeping it from his mind.

 

I think many assumed this had something to do with the new Zen Rand, but it's just too improbable that he could have gone all that time without showing some effect. What little we have seen that makes Rand seem remotely as if he is losing it appears to just be the side effects of the massive amounts of stress he is under, and a confirmation bias of those who observe him ("Oh, he's laughing at an odd time. He must be going mad.").

 

It seems clear to me that RJ as an Author had to look ahead, and knowing that he had a main character that needed to not go crazy in the series he would need something to explain it other than, "He's the Dragon." since part of the story arc revolves around his predecessor falling prey to the madness.

 

Hrm. That, is fascinating.

 

I think the chapter title VoG kinda suggested that is where be picked up the stuff. Also, I've assumed the gold stuff also gave him the stare-down powers. I suppose it's possible it's always been there but Zen Rand knew what it was. didn't make the Eye but he may have understood how it would work. And so now Rand does too.

 

Then again he still heard the voice, which is "partly" caused by the taint. But then using the inoculation analogy, you might still get some symptoms even if you have a system that can fight off the worst of it.

[Dastion]

Hrm. That, is fascinating.

 

I think the chapter title VoG kinda suggested that is where be picked up the stuff. Also, I've assumed the gold stuff also gave him the stare-down powers. I suppose it's possible it's always been there but Zen Rand knew what it was. didn't make the Eye but he may have understood how it would work. And so now Rand does too.

 

Then again he still heard the voice, which is "partly" caused by the taint. But then using the inoculation analogy, you might still get some symptoms even if you have a system that can fight off the worst of it.

 

Precisely, this is why I included the comment that it may have just been a 'buffer' to protect him from the taint. Nynaeve proved to us that the taint is there, so this seems the more logical belief.

 

Also, remember that he didn't get the entire 'dose', Aginor syphoned off at least a portion of it. But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

As to Rand being able to discern who is a Dark Friend, I took that as a Talent unique to him that his merging with Lews Therin brought to fruition. From the very first book he showed the ability to see the bonds the Dark One attaches to those who serve him, and Padan Fain shows a similar talent.

[Bluedust9]

Hrm. That, is fascinating.

 

I think the chapter title VoG kinda suggested that is where be picked up the stuff. Also, I've assumed the gold stuff also gave him the stare-down powers. I suppose it's possible it's always been there but Zen Rand knew what it was. didn't make the Eye but he may have understood how it would work. And so now Rand does too.

 

Then again he still heard the voice, which is "partly" caused by the taint. But then using the inoculation analogy, you might still get some symptoms even if you have a system that can fight off the worst of it.

 

Precisely, this is why I included the comment that it may have just been a 'buffer' to protect him from the taint. Nynaeve proved to us that the taint is there, so this seems the more logical belief.

 

Also, remember that he didn't get the entire 'dose', Aginor syphoned off at least a portion of it. But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

As to Rand being able to discern who is a Dark Friend, I took that as a Talent unique to him that his merging with Lews Therin brought to fruition. From the very first book he showed the ability to see the bonds the Dark One attaches to those who serve him, and Padan Fain shows a similar talent.

 

This is true, since doing a new reread I noticed Rand mentioning noticing things in eyes a lot more in the earlier books.

[rand4747]

But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

Rand was not protected from the taint, hes been as mad as a hatter for several books. He was finally protected after VoG when he got that weird light thing that Nynaeve "saw" between his brain and the taint.

[Kahsm]

Hrm. That, is fascinating.

 

I think the chapter title VoG kinda suggested that is where be picked up the stuff. Also, I've assumed the gold stuff also gave him the stare-down powers. I suppose it's possible it's always been there but Zen Rand knew what it was. didn't make the Eye but he may have understood how it would work. And so now Rand does too.

 

Then again he still heard the voice, which is "partly" caused by the taint. But then using the inoculation analogy, you might still get some symptoms even if you have a system that can fight off the worst of it.

 

Precisely, this is why I included the comment that it may have just been a 'buffer' to protect him from the taint. Nynaeve proved to us that the taint is there, so this seems the more logical belief.

 

Also, remember that he didn't get the entire 'dose', Aginor syphoned off at least a portion of it. But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

As to Rand being able to discern who is a Dark Friend, I took that as a Talent unique to him that his merging with Lews Therin brought to fruition. From the very first book he showed the ability to see the bonds the Dark One attaches to those who serve him, and Padan Fain shows a similar talent.

 

This is true, since doing a new reread I noticed Rand mentioning noticing things in eyes a lot more in the earlier books.

 

My favourite part of this is that it further humanizes Rand and continues to reinforce my long-standing belief that his channeling is still all natural. Maradon was just a demonstration of what a strong, agile, skilled MC can do to a massive horde of cannon fodder.

 

The taint protection was AoL Aes-Sedai-made, not creator or pattern imbued. Bwahaha. I love it.

 

Also, I don't think you need the whole dose, I would bet a little would have done as much as can be done. RJ said it wasn't used for it's intended purpose. I bet that purpose was to inoculate many male channelers, not just one. Rand just used it all up "by mistake" so to speak.

 

Wonder if Taim found and used the Eye ;) Probably going to far now, but he was a borderlander who could have learnt he could channel and therefore have "need".

[Dastion]

But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

Rand was not protected from the taint, hes been as mad as a hatter for several books. He was finally protected after VoG when he got that weird light thing that Nynaeve "saw" between his brain and the taint.

 

 

There is nothing to say when the light Nynaeve saw actually became a part of Rand. My theory is that it is a result of the inoculation from The Eye, but the popular theory is that it happened when he went 'Zen'.

 

We know from Rand's flashbacks (or flash-asides really) that if he hadn't of went off with Moiraine he WOULD have eventually went mad and began to rot, even channeling so lightly as he did. So being the Dragon certainly didn't protect him anymore than it did Lews Therin. Something happened, something other than him being the Dragon to protect him.

 

Now the question is what protected him? I don't think it was his epiphany on top of Dragon Mount that resulted in "Zen Rand". That was more a self realization that allowed his warring selves to merge, that broke him out of the spiral he was going down as being the Dragon felt like a weight he had to bear to no real purpose.

 

Rather, I think it had to of happened before. Or else channeling as much of the taint as he did at Shadar Logoth would have destroyed his mind. Since "The Eye" is something that is such a big hole in the plot "Wait...why did we do that again?", yet something so pivotal that the prophecies brought him there, and Aes Sedai died to create it, it seems the most likely candidate.

 

As to Rand being "mad as a hatter". Not really, I'd go so far to say that he is shockingly sane considering his age and the stress he has been put under. He's a shephard thrust into a position of absolute power, with the very people he's trying to save constantly plotting against him or disagreeing simply 'because'. He's seen death, destruction, he's lost a hand, nevermind being in constant pain that would have most of us sitting on the couch drawing unemployment, and he literally counts the lives of women he feels he let die for him. At worst he's been a bit wry and derisive, but far from mad.

[Kahsm]

But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

Rand was not protected from the taint, hes been as mad as a hatter for several books. He was finally protected after VoG when he got that weird light thing that Nynaeve "saw" between his brain and the taint.

 

He had LTT's memories, but he always seemed sane, if tortured. Nothing compared to seeing fades in every shadow, and there's no possible way that guy had channeled anywhere near as much as rand.

 

Also, I agree you could be right, but why can't this alternate theory be possible too?

[rand4747]

I think the eye was just a pool of saidin, it was either built to protect what was within it or for a purpose it was never used for, or both.

 

As for the VoG his realisation I think is what caused that buffer from the taint. If Moiraine didn't take him away of course he would have died from the madness because there would never have been a VoG.

and of course with the taint removed from his mind (well held away) he no longer had a voice in his head (the voice and everything were a sign of his madness) and the memorys returned to him because he stopped hiding them away from himself. As part of the madness he partitioned his mind to hide away the memorys of lews therin into a seperate personality (multiple personality disorder).

 

How the memorys arrived is kind of a mystery but he has access to them because he is lews therin reborn but what unlocked them I am not sure. That did seem to happen at the eye of the world though. Well its soon after there that he begins talking to himself. Although initially it just seems like hes thinking.

 

Actually this doesn't quite undo what I was just saying but perhaps the Saidin leached the memorys from the horn that was stored in it.