The Eye

[mbuehner]

Could The Eye have been a buffer between the Dark One and the seal it held? Consider that after thousands of years the seals started deteriorating months after The Eye was drained. Theoretically, the seals are focus points of the patch, if one were protected from the DOs touch perhaps all were. Otherwise- why bother putting a seal in there at all? They were cuendillar so no-one would suspect their safety was at risk. Wouldn't a sa-angreal or a paralis-net or some other artifact have been more useful than a seal that cant be broken (and the other seals seemed to have been either lost or spread around with no apparent attempt to put them someone safe like Callandor or the Horn was). You would think there should be a very strong reason for AS to die making the Eye (as opposed to how Callandor was protected). This theory could explain why the Eye had to be pure Saidin- some connection of the taint and the seals.

[Agitel]

People seem to be over-thinking the Eye. The Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that the Dragon would be reborn and that the source he would touch would be tainted and would drive him mad. The Dragon would need to learn how to use saidin. The Eye existed as a training tool, to allow him to learn how to channel without touching the taint. It would explain why the Dark One was determined to "blind" it once he learned the Dragon had been reborn. The Eye clearly existed for the Dragon, given what was found there. And while limited, it was likely fairly large, or at least meant to last a while if channeled in small amounts.

 

This would demonstrate that some of the Breaking era Aes Sedai figured out how to filter saidin. Given the lack of the Choedan Kal they likely didn't have the volume to create a self-sustaining siphon as Rand did, nor did the taint from Shadar Logoth exist to use as a neutralizer for the taint they did filter, which means that the taint had to go somewhere. Hence, the Blight.

[Mulk]

I think, Agitel, that if you are proven right it is more likely the people who filtered saidin took the taint into themselves - this would be why they all died, according to Moiraine's story in TEOTW. The Blight already existed at that time, if I'm remembering correctly.

[Xcorpyo001]

People seem to be over-thinking the Eye. The Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that the Dragon would be reborn and that the source he would touch would be tainted and would drive him mad. The Dragon would need to learn how to use saidin. The Eye existed as a training tool, to allow him to learn how to channel without touching the taint. It would explain why the Dark One was determined to "blind" it once he learned the Dragon had been reborn. The Eye clearly existed for the Dragon, given what was found there. And while limited, it was likely fairly large, or at least meant to last a while if channeled in small amounts.

 

This would demonstrate that some of the Breaking era Aes Sedai figured out how to filter saidin. Given the lack of the Choedan Kal they likely didn't have the volume to create a self-sustaining siphon as Rand did, nor did the taint from Shadar Logoth exist to use as a neutralizer for the taint they did filter, which means that the taint had to go somewhere. Hence, the Blight.

 

 

Well put.

But QuietAiel May be right about absorbing the taint in themselves. But for the women to absorb the taint, they'll have to be channeling, and risk tainting the saidar itself, and it was only the strain of that cleansing that killed them? It's a 50-50.

[Mulk]

Depends on whether a man or a woman was leading; women can channel saidin in a link with men, after all. If Rand channeling pretty much all of saidin through a tube of saidar couldn't contaminate it, nothing can, save a direct touch of the Dark One, however it was he accomplished the tainting of saidin. Or the shock of losing people to death while in a circle might itself have caused a death or two. I honestly don't know. But I don't think contaminating saidar was a primary concern.

 

Perhaps it was a whole bunch of one on one links with the women controlling each link? I dunno. They don't really say anything about what it was they did, only that the number involved was greater than the maximum possible circle of...isn't it 35 men and 37 women? I forget.

[Kahsm]

People seem to be over-thinking the Eye. The Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that the Dragon would be reborn and that the source he would touch would be tainted and would drive him mad. The Dragon would need to learn how to use saidin. The Eye existed as a training tool, to allow him to learn how to channel without touching the taint. It would explain why the Dark One was determined to "blind" it once he learned the Dragon had been reborn. The Eye clearly existed for the Dragon, given what was found there. And while limited, it was likely fairly large, or at least meant to last a while if channeled in small amounts.

 

This would demonstrate that some of the Breaking era Aes Sedai figured out how to filter saidin. Given the lack of the Choedan Kal they likely didn't have the volume to create a self-sustaining siphon as Rand did, nor did the taint from Shadar Logoth exist to use as a neutralizer for the taint they did filter, which means that the taint had to go somewhere. Hence, the Blight.

 

Except the dragon did use it, and RJ said that it wasn't used for the intended purpose. I suppose you may argue that he used it to kill a bunch of trollocs and didn't really learn anything, but I tend to get the feeling it wasn't necessarily for the Dragon at all. Also, RJ said he wouldn't reveal what the real purpose was because he "might use it". And training doesn't make sense to use later on in the series.

[Hadilmir]

If the Eye were renewing the makers would not have needed to fill it (dying in doing so) they could have let it fill on it's own.

 

And what is to say they weren't killed by the act of making such a source? I no longer find this theory likely, but that doesn't mean I've ruled it out as one of many possibilities.

[Agitel]

People seem to be over-thinking the Eye. The Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that the Dragon would be reborn and that the source he would touch would be tainted and would drive him mad. The Dragon would need to learn how to use saidin. The Eye existed as a training tool, to allow him to learn how to channel without touching the taint. It would explain why the Dark One was determined to "blind" it once he learned the Dragon had been reborn. The Eye clearly existed for the Dragon, given what was found there. And while limited, it was likely fairly large, or at least meant to last a while if channeled in small amounts.

 

This would demonstrate that some of the Breaking era Aes Sedai figured out how to filter saidin. Given the lack of the Choedan Kal they likely didn't have the volume to create a self-sustaining siphon as Rand did, nor did the taint from Shadar Logoth exist to use as a neutralizer for the taint they did filter, which means that the taint had to go somewhere. Hence, the Blight.

 

Except the dragon did use it, and RJ said that it wasn't used for the intended purpose. I suppose you may argue that he used it to kill a bunch of trollocs and didn't really learn anything, but I tend to get the feeling it wasn't necessarily for the Dragon at all. Also, RJ said he wouldn't reveal what the real purpose was because he "might use it". And training doesn't make sense to use later on in the series.

 

You pointed out in your own post that using up all of the Eye in minutes in a spastic way isn't anything near where what I claimed was it's actual purpose, so I have no need to further address that. Given the Dragon Banner found at the Eye, it clearly seems intended for the Dragon, and that's the most logical explanation. Can you come up with others? Sure. Can you come up with others that make more sense given everything? I doubt it. As for Jordan bringing the Eye back into play, that may have been more as a plot element than as actually reusing it, and the idea that the creation of the Eye may have created the Blight seems like an element that could be revisited, as was the cleansing. There could be any number of things besides that, but revisiting the Eye doesn't mean he meant it in a literal aspect, perhaps more of a conceptual one, and he could use it in that respect. Considering that explaining the Eye would spoil either of those elements which could be introduced, I see no contradiction with my hypothesis.

[Kahsm]

People seem to be over-thinking the Eye. The Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that the Dragon would be reborn and that the source he would touch would be tainted and would drive him mad. The Dragon would need to learn how to use saidin. The Eye existed as a training tool, to allow him to learn how to channel without touching the taint. It would explain why the Dark One was determined to "blind" it once he learned the Dragon had been reborn. The Eye clearly existed for the Dragon, given what was found there. And while limited, it was likely fairly large, or at least meant to last a while if channeled in small amounts.

 

This would demonstrate that some of the Breaking era Aes Sedai figured out how to filter saidin. Given the lack of the Choedan Kal they likely didn't have the volume to create a self-sustaining siphon as Rand did, nor did the taint from Shadar Logoth exist to use as a neutralizer for the taint they did filter, which means that the taint had to go somewhere. Hence, the Blight.

 

Except the dragon did use it, and RJ said that it wasn't used for the intended purpose. I suppose you may argue that he used it to kill a bunch of trollocs and didn't really learn anything, but I tend to get the feeling it wasn't necessarily for the Dragon at all. Also, RJ said he wouldn't reveal what the real purpose was because he "might use it". And training doesn't make sense to use later on in the series.

 

You pointed out in your own post that using up all of the Eye in minutes in a spastic way isn't anything near where what I claimed was it's actual purpose, so I have no need to further address that. Given the Dragon Banner found at the Eye, it clearly seems intended for the Dragon, and that's the most logical explanation. Can you come up with others? Sure. Can you come up with others that make more sense given everything? I doubt it. As for Jordan bringing the Eye back into play, that may have been more as a plot element than as actually reusing it, and the idea that the creation of the Eye may have created the Blight seems like an element that could be revisited, as was the cleansing. There could be any number of things besides that, but revisiting the Eye doesn't mean he meant it in a literal aspect, perhaps more of a conceptual one, and he could use it in that respect. Considering that explaining the Eye would spoil either of those elements which could be introduced, I see no contradiction with my hypothesis.

 

Well I already gave my theory, I backed one of the early theories (I think it was in this thread) that suggest channeling from the eye is what gave Rand a certain amount of taint inoculation, but the original purpose was that it was meant for many male channelers to get inoculated in the future, possibly so they could 'repair' the seals. Which is what Jordan 'may' have decided to use. They Aes Sedai of the AoL certainly knew the seals wouldn't hold the DO forever.

 

Though even if you don't want to accept inoculation, then it could have just been a pool of pure saidin to use to reseal or repair the seals in the future.

 

And why not hide some important things in there? Doesn't mean they knew the Dragon Reborn would find it, but at least, hopefully, it would be a descendant from their Aes Sedai organization who would know what to do with them.

 

Though it'd have been nice if they'd left a note, eh? =)

[Mulk]

I think it's pretty likely that the knowledge of what it was intended for was, in fact, recorded somewhere, it was just lost in the Breaking. Those with personal knowledge either perished in the making or died during the evil times that followed without being able to spread that knowledge out far enough to prevent its loss.

 

As to whether the Green Man should have known...well, that's another issue. It's clear from what we see of him in the Eye of the World and TSR that he had been wounded in the War of the Power and was a little...I guess unclear is a good word for it...on some things. He also did not like to be around it because he felt his end was bound up in it. And, of course, it's been three thousand years for him. No one's memory is perfect, so he may have forgotten it. And, finally, he was a grower of things, a gardener of the highest order, not a guardian, so the Aes Sedai may not have told him exactly what they intended, just asked him to guard it until it was needed.

[Kahsm]

I think it's pretty likely that the knowledge of what it was intended for was, in fact, recorded somewhere, it was just lost in the Breaking. Those with personal knowledge either perished in the making or died during the evil times that followed without being able to spread that knowledge out far enough to prevent its loss.

 

As to whether the Green Man should have known...well, that's another issue. It's clear from what we see of him in the Eye of the World and TSR that he had been wounded in the War of the Power and was a little...I guess unclear is a good word for it...on some things. He also did not like to be around it because he felt his end was bound up in it. And, of course, it's been three thousand years for him. No one's memory is perfect, so he may have forgotten it. And, finally, he was a grower of things, a gardener of the highest order, not a guardian, so the Aes Sedai may not have told him exactly what they intended, just asked him to guard it until it was needed.

 

I was actually suggesting they could have left a note in the HoV chest. But I agree with everything.

[Mulk]

I was actually suggesting they could have left a note in the HoV chest. But I agree with everything.

 

One problem with that: they'd have to use up the Eye to get to the note. :)

[Kahsm]

I was actually suggesting they could have left a note in the HoV chest. But I agree with everything.

 

One problem with that: they'd have to use up the Eye to get to the note. :)

 

Oh I know, but at least you'd know what the intention was!

 

"I hope this note finds you well (well, the eye, Get it?!), and that you used our final gift for something important, like cleansing saidin truly (sorry about that) or repairing the seals, they should be breaking by the time you find this. We have also enclosed LTT's banner, the horn of valor, and a prison seal he will need for the Last Battle. I hope yours does better than ours did.

 

P.S. we left all the good stuff with the Aiel."

[Mulk]

I must admit, I lol'ed quite heartily. At my desk. At work. Thankfully, my office has a door...

[BrainFireBob]

My theory is that The Eye was an inoculation against the taint on Saidin. Or, at least, a buffer to protect him from the madness. They used cleansed saidin to administer the protection just as the DO uses tainted Saidin to cause men to go mad. Just that the DO is powerful enough to have tainted all of Saidin, while it took the deaths of many Aes Sedai just to provide the small amount to protect Rand that he blew through in minutes.

 

How else do you explain how Rand was able to channel so much of Saidin at Shadar Logoth without going mad? When Nynaeve discovered how to heal madness from the taint on saidin she delved Rand and saw the mass of blackness she couldn't even begin to try healing. Yet she also noticed the pulsing light beneath it, seemingly keeping it from his mind.

 

I think many assumed this had something to do with the new Zen Rand, but it's just too improbable that he could have gone all that time without showing some effect. What little we have seen that makes Rand seem remotely as if he is losing it appears to just be the side effects of the massive amounts of stress he is under, and a confirmation bias of those who observe him ("Oh, he's laughing at an odd time. He must be going mad.").

 

It seems clear to me that RJ as an Author had to look ahead, and knowing that he had a main character that needed to not go crazy in the series he would need something to explain it other than, "He's the Dragon." since part of the story arc revolves around his predecessor falling prey to the madness.

 

Actually, we know of one other odd effect of the Eye- it was restoring Aginor's youth. Not just his health or vigor, but his actual youth was returning, and as I recall, that's not how slowing works, and he should have slowed already in the AoL. If it's not a bookism, then other possibilities include:

 

1) It helps physically, preventing the rotting sickness

2) It cures things (this might be why Rand didn't die of wilder symptoms, even though he didn't have complete control of his channelling yet)

3) That's where LTT's memories really came from, they just took a while to filter out.

 

3 is my favorite whacky theory.

 

Of course, there's a strong implication they expected Rand to reach the Eye immediately before TG- hence "what good is your Foretelling if you can't tell us when!?" in the glass columns. Perhaps the Eye was for re-Sealing without letting the DO have access to "greater" saidin. He could only Taint the Eye, which wouldn't have power in it anymore, anyway.

[Suttree]

Actually, we know of one other odd effect of the Eye- it was restoring Aginor's youth. Not just his health or vigor, but his actual youth was returning, and as I recall, that's not how slowing works, and he should have slowed already in the AoL. If it's not a bookism, then other possibilities include:

 

That wasn't the Eye it was the TP.

 

 

Melbourne book signing 28 August 1999 - Mark Erikson reporting

 

 

I asked him about Aginor getting younger at the end of The Eye of the World, and he said 'no, he doesn't get younger, he dies'. So I actually looked up the reference and read it to him. He said 'oh, that,' and then went on to explain that it is actually the True Power, not the saidin from the Eye, that rejuvenates him...

[Crusader12]

Wow, what a great thread. Some very good points brought up, and I'm glad it was asked because I just did a re-read of tEoTW a little while ago and had this question myself. I agree with the idea that it was probably meant to be found at the last battle, it just fits with all the various elements: i.e. the Eye can only be found through great Need, and how could there be greater need than that of the DR at the LB? So the DR finds some prophecy about the Eye, goes to SG, finds the Eye due to his great need, by then he's already gone pretty crazy from the taint and here's this well of of pure Saidin with an extra oxyboost cleaning agent added to it, and at the bottom of it is the HoV and the Dragon Banner to use in the fight that's about to begin. Given that the well would have to be drained prior to finding the HoV and banner, yet these being needed in the battle, it would be assumed that the well was for some other purpose than to be used in directly battling the DO, such as sloughing the taint off Rand and his Companions who dip into it and inoculating them against further infection. Unfortunately, Moiraine discovered the legend and brought Rand there a little to early, not that it didn't still have a helpful effect.

[Crusader12]

There was a question brought up about the subject of why would these items be left there to be found at the LB since the seal wouldn't make sense for that, it was Cuendillar and the AS of the AoL would assume it to be impervious and not need any such protection. I would actually give those AS a bit more credit for wisdom than that. Even if they had no inkling of how cuendillar could be broken themselves, they would at least know that the DO was prophesied to break out of his prison eventually, and that thus these seals would be important to protect, and how better to protect one of them than by burying it under a gigantic reservoir of condensed Saidin?

 

As to the question of why all the seals weren't put in there in that case, it was a pretty doggone chaotic period, wars, male AS going mad, etc, there could have been any number of reasons why these were not all put in the same place: (a) the others had already been stolen, (b) factions within the AS disagreed as to the best way to protect them and took some to other locations. In fact (b) would explain why the others weren't as well guarded as this one was, after all the breaking would have potentially defeated any and all attempts at putting something in a secure hidings spot, unless that secure location was itself not really present in the physical world itself (as in the Eye being part of TAR or some other way of making it a parallel to the physical universe.

[Caveatar]

Could The Eye have been a buffer between the Dark One and the seal it held? Consider that after thousands of years the seals started deteriorating months after The Eye was drained. Theoretically, the seals are focus points of the patch, if one were protected from the DOs touch perhaps all were. Otherwise- why bother putting a seal in there at all? They were cuendillar so no-one would suspect their safety was at risk. Wouldn't a sa-angreal or a paralis-net or some other artifact have been more useful than a seal that cant be broken (and the other seals seemed to have been either lost or spread around with no apparent attempt to put them someone safe like Callandor or the Horn was). You would think there should be a very strong reason for AS to die making the Eye (as opposed to how Callandor was protected). This theory could explain why the Eye had to be pure Saidin- some connection of the taint and the seals.

 

 

I really like the "...buffer between the Dark One and the seal it held." notion, Mbuehner.

Not ONLY seven focal points but seven layers of protection with the Eye protecting the

last one?

 

If the seals were cascaded, one on top of the other...

Access to first seal blocked by the second seal...

Second seal protected by the third...

Third protected by fourth......

Seventh seal must be broken before next can be accessed to be broken...

and The Eye of the World protecting the seventh one.

 

So in order to begin the breaking the Eye must be drained.

First it must be found...enter Green Man and the changing location of the Eye.

 

So to break seals...

Find the nearly impossible to locate Eye of the World.

Get past the Green Man.

Drain the Eye.

Get the Seventh Seal.

Break it someway other than with a force that strengthens it....

Free up access to next seal...

et cetera..

 

So the Eye was to prevent anyone other than the Dragon Reborn

from breaking the seals?

He and only he could begin the breaking of the seals and reweave the pattern over the bore?

They must be broken but if broken too early the D.O. escapes with the Dragon Reborn unavailable.

 

Mbuehner, I like it even if it proves to be incorrect.

[thebluetower]

But there has to be something about Rand that has protected him from the taint, especially after Shadar Logoth. And him being the Dragon doesn't work since it didn't protect Lews Therin.

 

Rand was not protected from the taint, hes been as mad as a hatter for several books. He was finally protected after VoG when he got that weird light thing that Nynaeve "saw" between his brain and the taint.

 

As to Rand being "mad as a hatter". Not really, I'd go so far to say that he is shockingly sane considering his age and the stress he has been put under. He's a shephard thrust into a position of absolute power, with the very people he's trying to save constantly plotting against him or disagreeing simply 'because'. He's seen death, destruction, he's lost a hand, nevermind being in constant pain that would have most of us sitting on the couch drawing unemployment, and he literally counts the lives of women he feels he let die for him. At worst he's been a bit wry and derisive, but far from mad.

 

 

I really love this take on it and wanted to add something in support. Another poster pointed out that he had to have been insane because of hearing Lews Therin, and that we had no evidence that non-Tainted people in the world hear the voices of their past lives. I would argue that we do see this phenomenon occurring.

 

Before he ever went to through the Doorways, even before Shadar Logoth, Mat was able to speak phrases of the Old Tongue that came from someone who lived in Manetheren. Second, we see during the Portal Stone malfunction in TGH that the Two Rivers citizens who go north to battle Trollocs at the Tarren have the strange sensation that they've done this before.

 

In short, I love the inoculation theory. I'd also add that the very existence of the Eye gave Rand something he needed - it proved to him that Saidin could be cleansed, and was perhaps the inspiration for the Cleansing in the first place.

 

Edit: We also do see very early signs of Rand's temper, so I don't think we can just chalk that up to insanity either. Even in TEotW, we see him nearly bite Mat's, Perrin's, Loial's, and Gill's heads off, and become irrationally angry at Tallanvor and occasionally gets over his fear of Ishamael by getting pissed at him.