Breaking through Shields

[Rivirland]

Sup everyone,

 

I am rereading everything for the first time now and I have currently just finished book 4, tSR. In one of the last chapters, The Traps of Rhuidean, at page 973 in my version, Lanfear says this when she shields Asmodean:

That shield will allow a trickle through' date=' enough for him to teach. It will dissipate with time, but he'll not be able to challenge you for months, and by that time he will have no choice but to remain with you. He was never very good at breaking through a shield; you must be willing to accept pain, and he never could.[/quote']

 

Now I am really interested in the last sentence, about breaking through a shield. Afaik (I might have forgotten it or whatever), breaking through shield has never been mentioned in the other books and most OP battles are decided by who shields the other one first. Is this just forgotten by RJ/BS or will this play a role in AMoL? Or am I an idiot and is breaking through a shield everyday's business in book 5-13 but I just forgot about it? :D

 

~Rivirland

[Majsju]

Rand at Dumais Wells...

[randsc]

Which didn't seem to involve much pain...

[Majsju]

Considering rands state of mind at the time, it might have hurt like seven hells, and he just did not notice.

[Ananta]

Isn't it said that at least Nynaeve can bruteforce through shields if held by weak channeler?

 

And tied off shields are apparently quite easy to break. And didn't Moghedien break through Nynaeves tied off shield?

 

 

 

I sort of took it as a everyday thing to do.

[icspots]

It could also just be a difference in Lanfear's power/skill level/AoL knowledge. AFAIK there are only two instances we've seen of AoL Aes Sedai shielding someone and tying off the shield. Lanfear shielding Asmodean and Moghedian shielding Liandrin. When Moggy shielded Liandrin RJ described the mother of all knots on the weave, one which pretty much no one would ever be able to unravel. Perhaps Lanfear was referring to a way that type of knot could be unraveled, knowledge which was commonplace (or at least more common) in the AoL. If so then Asmodean would likely have been aware of how to do it. As to it's unpleasantness and the lack of mention in Rand's POV it's possible that either Rand's condition at the time is the reason, or it could be that the contemporary Aes Sedai's knots just didn't compare to the type that Lanfear and Moggy tied.

[Superhal]

There's a pretty full explanation at Dumai's Wells. In summary: by sheer force of will, you can break through a shield. The softer a shield is, the more it resists this breaking. The more channelers that hold the shield, the softer it is. Fewer shielders mean a harder, more brittle shield. Tying off a shield also creates points of hardness than can be unraveled or broken.

[Luckers]

It has also been suggested that Lanfear was lying her little behind off. Certainly she said her shield would dissipate over time, and yet in the months that follow Asmodean grows no stronger (according to Rand).

[Sharaman]

AOL channelers seem to have a much wider range of shield techniques.

Moggy uses a weird thing with Liandrin, which is EDIT Visible (EDIT ENDS) but nearly impossible to remove because it's so strangely knotted.

Lanfear uses something with Asmo that allows a trickle to pass through (whether it dissipates over time or not).

Presumably it has a pain component that she relies on to deter Asmo to try breaking it.

"Modern" shields all seem to be binary - they attempt to completely block power.

Also they seem to be relatively easy to break if tied off.

[Ashaman_Axel]

Since we're on the subject of shield breaking, I'd like to ask this since this question has been nagging on me for quite awhile.

 

It's been mentioned several times in the series that a channeler that can't see is useless since you need to be able to see to weave anything. I've been wondering how Rand/LTT can channel Spirit in the confines of the box and use what I'd assume to be a weave of Spirit to smash the hard points of the shield and break through.

 

How can he do that and then use Air(?) to blow the box for his escape if he was bundled up inside the dark box? Or was there enough light inside to be of some use for weaving?

[Hybrid]

It's been mentioned several times in the series that a channeler that can't see is useless since you need to be able to see to weave anything. I've been wondering how Rand/LTT can channel Spirit in the confines of the box and use what I'd assume to be a weave of Spirit to smash the hard points of the shield and break through.

 

I don't recall this, but it's been a while. Do you remember who said it, and when?

 

I vaguely recall a line-of-sight limitation being mentioned, but if I remember correctly, that's a Third Age crutch similar to the need to make gestures when channeling fireballs. Certainly, Sammael's involvement in the battle for Cairhien suggests that actual vision of the target is not necessary.

[Ashaman_Axel]

Lord of Chaos p936

 

".... but I can unravel the web if they knot it" - LTT

 

So even shielded LTT can unravel a shield as long as it is tied. Is he weaving something with Saidin?

 

Lord of Chaos p970

 

"(After breaking the three hard points on the shield) The Power filled him and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them in fists of Spirit. Aside from that he could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head forced between his knees. Before he even finished with the fist of Spirit, he channeled Air. The chest exploded...."

 

So Rand wasn't in total darkness and whatever dim vision he had inside the chest was enough to weave Spirit and Air... Oh well...

 

IIRC there was an Aes Sedai who can only embrace Saidar with her eyes close (I believe that was her block) and Galina beat the block out of her since as that Aes Sedai mentioned "You can't weave anything if you can't see." Not 100% sure on this but that's what I remember....

 

I think it was Morr or some other Ashaman that Rand took after Dumai's Wells that had a distance bar wherein he has problems channeling at 50 or 100 paces or something like that..

 

Hope I'm not making a mess of things by posting this...

[XXX]

Since we're on the subject of shield breaking, I'd like to ask this since this question has been nagging on me for quite awhile.

 

It's been mentioned several times in the series that a channeler that can't see is useless since you need to be able to see to weave anything. I've been wondering how Rand/LTT can channel Spirit in the confines of the box and use what I'd assume to be a weave of Spirit to smash the hard points of the shield and break through.

 

How can he do that and then use Air(?) to blow the box for his escape if he was bundled up inside the dark box? Or was there enough light inside to be of some use for weaving?

 

There must have been air holes for him to breathe in the box..so some light would be there through the holes.

 

Anyway as posted below..there is no line of sight limitation for AoL channelers..though I am not sure Rand knew then how to do it without sight.

[balefireruinssteaks]

It does seem like the intricate knowledge of shields is something lost on current Age channelers. Moghedien says to Liandrin that "you will search a long time before you find someone with the necessary skill to unravel that shield" or something to that effect - presumably meaning that it would take someone with AoL shield knowledge to unravel her shield.

 

It seems like as with so many other things, the current channelers find a task for a weave but then just leave it at that. Aes Sedai know you can weave Spirit and shield someone, but except for Berowin (the Kin lady who can manipulate shields to hold anyone), it seems like they didn't really push further to figure out what else could be done with shields or how to make them stronger or more flexible. So there were probably people in the Age of Legends that studied shields and pushed the boundaries of that study, and everyone knew how to create crazy Lanfear shields or Moghedien shields.

[rcfleming4]

That I've read (maybe it's just me) but weaves of the Power seem to glow, at least to the channeler. Even though it may not illuminate the surroundings you can see the Power being used, and therefore see it to weave with.

 

Plus I think that even a blinded channeler could lash out with the Power around them . . . they just wouldn't be able to weave very well. Maybe they can even weave some things but couldn't use those weaves very effectively . . .

 

Why spend so much time and effort shielding Semirhage if you could just restrain her and blindfold her? I don't think that would work.

[Superhal]

That I've read (maybe it's just me) but weaves of the Power seem to glow, at least to the channeler. Even though it may not illuminate the surroundings you can see the Power being used, and therefore see it ...

 

Irrelevant for females shielding males.

[Sharaman]

I think there's an RJ quote to the effect that a blind person can channel quite effectively, it's just a limitation that most channelers (being sighted) place upon themselves subconsciously.

The AOL may well have used "training " shields, limiting the OP available to a novice channeler until he/ she had learnt to control it properly. That way, destructive accidents would be less common.

It may also have been a technique for controlling criminal channelers. Yes, they used binders but a shield that dissipates over time would also be an useful and effective prison sentence without causing diminished life-span for say, a minor offence caused by a juvenile.

[Luckers]

It seems like as with so many other things, the current channelers find a task for a weave but then just leave it at that. Aes Sedai know you can weave Spirit and shield someone, but except for Berowin (the Kin lady who can manipulate shields to hold anyone), it seems like they didn't really push further to figure out what else could be done with shields or how to make them stronger or more flexible. So there were probably people in the Age of Legends that studied shields and pushed the boundaries of that study, and everyone knew how to create crazy Lanfear shields or Moghedien shields.

 

RJ confirmed that Berowin's abilities are a Talent. Apparently Ispan or Falion (can't remember which) also had a Talent for shielding.

[Tomp]

The soft points of the shield at Dumai wells that he crushed resulted in three stilled Aes Sedai.

[Kahsm]

The soft points of the shield at Dumai wells that he crushed resulted in three stilled Aes Sedai.

 

Right, but he was frantic, who knows what he did with that power once he got through. The shield was tied off, so there's no direct link to those Aes Sedsi right? Like when a water baloon pops the water explodes outward, I figured this uncontrolled release stilled the Aes Sedai nearby.

 

On another note, I don't think you can untie a shield on yourself. Rand's description of the shield he felt suggests the knot is on the other side...? Tying a complex knot keeps other people from unraveling your shields. Like another forsaken freeing Asmodeon.

[XXX]

The soft points of the shield at Dumai wells that he crushed resulted in three stilled Aes Sedai.

 

Right, but he was frantic, who knows what he did with that power once he got through. The shield was tied off, so there's no direct link to those Aes Sedsi right? Like when a water baloon pops the water explodes outward, I figured this uncontrolled release stilled the Aes Sedai nearby.

 

On another note, I don't think you can untie a shield on yourself. Rand's description of the shield he felt suggests the knot is on the other side...? Tying a complex knot keeps other people from unraveling your shields. Like another forsaken freeing Asmodeon.

 

The 3 AS he stilled were still holding the shield when he broke through...the current age AS do not know that a tied off shield can be broken while one with 6 AS holding it cannot be broken. In Salidar, Egwene suggests that the AS shielding Logian just tie off their shields instead of holding it and the AS refused because it was convention to hold the shield instead of tieing it off. They did not know that the tied off shield can actually be broken while the actively held shield cannot be.

[Kahsm]

The soft points of the shield at Dumai wells that he crushed resulted in three stilled Aes Sedai.

 

Right, but he was frantic, who knows what he did with that power once he got through. The shield was tied off, so there's no direct link to those Aes Sedsi right? Like when a water baloon pops the water explodes outward, I figured this uncontrolled release stilled the Aes Sedai nearby.

 

On another note, I don't think you can untie a shield on yourself. Rand's description of the shield he felt suggests the knot is on the other side...? Tying a complex knot keeps other people from unraveling your shields. Like another forsaken freeing Asmodeon.

 

The 3 AS he stilled were still holding the shield when he broke through...the current age AS do not know that a tied off shield can be broken while one with 6 AS holding it cannot be broken. In Salidar, Egwene suggests that the AS shielding Logian just tie off their shields instead of holding it and the AS refused because it was convention to hold the shield instead of tieing it off. They did not know that the tied off shield can actually be broken while the actively held shield cannot be.

 

Ah right, It was 6 and 3 left. And 1 died right? Well I stand by the. Rest, uncontrolled burst overloads the AS. I guess holding the shield creates a path for the released saidin to follow.

[XXX]

You are correct..a sudden disruption in the flow of the OP can still the channeler...Demandred was trying to still or kill Rand by trying to stop the flow of OP during the cleaning of saidin. I guess the same thing happened when Rand broke through the shield held by the 3 AS.

[Kahsm]

You are correct..a sudden disruption in the flow of the OP can still the channeler...Demandred was trying to still or kill Rand by trying to stop the flow of OP during the cleaning of saidin. I guess the same thing happened when Rand broke through the shield held by the 3 AS.

 

Slightly off-topic, but Nynaeve recognized a weave that she claims was intended to still her when she fought Moggy in their invisible fight. Though if they were similar in strength, I wonder if it would have worked if it had landed. Obviously Nyn wasn't about to test and find out. But it seems odd that you can't shield someone the same strength as you who's already embraced, but you can still them?

[Ala Rubra]

You are correct..a sudden disruption in the flow of the OP can still the channeler...Demandred was trying to still or kill Rand by trying to stop the flow of OP during the cleaning of saidin. I guess the same thing happened when Rand broke through the shield held by the 3 AS.

 

Slightly off-topic, but Nynaeve recognized a weave that she claims was intended to still her when she fought Moggy in their invisible fight. Though if they were similar in strength, I wonder if it would have worked if it had landed. Obviously Nyn wasn't about to test and find out. But it seems odd that you can't shield someone the same strength as you who's already embraced, but you can still them?

 

You can, in fact, shield someone the same strength as you. Nynaeve does it to both Moggy and Talane(? That Sea Folk girl). It's just much harder, and needs to be done skillfully. For example, a rushed shield job by Nynaeve wasn't able to shield Elayne, despite the large difference in strength, but a carefully woven shield was able to shield women the same strength as herself.