Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[XXX]

That argument was in context of the relative importance of the Amyrlin and Tar Valon. In the wider context of things,both are inconsequential.

[randsc]

Sorry the Amyrlin is head of one city state,nothing more nothing less..it does not matter in the big scheme of things if Tar Valon get's destroyed. No one cares except the AS.

The hundreds of thousands non-Aes Sedai who live in Tar Valon strongly disagree with you.

 

Not to mention that it's the biggest commercial and financial centre in Randland. But who cares, right, those arrogant Aes Sedai has to be punished at all costs...

 

 

Is Tar Valon more important than the Seachan who controls vastly more areas..including an entire continent bigger than Randland?

 

Both are not as important as the world..Tar Valon can fall into the sea and the world will live on. Rand fails and it is all over.

 

Not that I'm surprised, but now you're just being ridiculous. Yes that is true. But just about anyone, or any group other than The Dragon, could disappear and the same "logic" (and I use that word extremely loosely) would apply.

 

 

The Dragon, Perrin and Mat. That is correct. Which means, to answer the original question, that the Dragon and Amyrlin are in no way equal. Not in temporal power, not in their relative importance in the metaphysical struggle. They just aren't.

[Rose]

Except that it is wrong, in several important respects. The Dragon breaks all bonds, incluing the political. It is very clear that the prophecies say exactly that, and are understood as saying that by many people in-story. So no, the Dragon need not respect the Amyrlin's political authority, or that of any other political figure. And if he had shown that sort of deference to the established political order, the story would already be over and the light would have lost.

Well, yes, but I didn't mean it in the sense that he should kneel to all rulers and do everything they say. As I said, it's a balance, and BOTH have to do their part. He shouldn't waste time trying to rule the world, that's simply not his mandate. Like Kael Pyralis said, he's not supposed to be Arthur Hawkwing. What he did in Tear at the beginning (change the laws, micromanage the lords, etc.) is definitely not something he should try to do on the scale of the whole world. That's the job of kings, queens, and amyrlins. And he knows that. He's not trying to anymore (and there's no way he would have time for that anyway). But the rulers, including the Amyrlin, should also defer to him when it comes to dealing with the Shadow, and do what they can to help him. Which Egwene hasn't been very good at doing so far, I'm ready to admit it.

 

Just to make it clear, I'm not trying to defend Egwene's actions here, I'm just trying to explain how I see the role and responsibilities of the Dragon and the Amyrlin seat with respect to each other, since that is supposed to be the topic of this thread. Now maybe I made a mistake, and this thread was created to harp on how much of an idiot Egwene is. But I gave my answer to that earlier as well.

[Suttree]

Sorry the Amyrlin is head of one city state,nothing more nothing less..it does not matter in the big scheme of things if Tar Valon get's destroyed. No one cares except the AS.

The hundreds of thousands non-Aes Sedai who live in Tar Valon strongly disagree with you.

 

Not to mention that it's the biggest commercial and financial centre in Randland. But who cares, right, those arrogant Aes Sedai has to be punished at all costs...

 

 

Is Tar Valon more important than the Seachan who controls vastly more areas..including an entire continent bigger than Randland?

 

Both are not as important as the world..Tar Valon can fall into the sea and the world will live on. Rand fails and it is all over.

 

 

You have no idea what role Tar Valon will play in the future. To take it a step further look to Randland history. There are numerous instances in which the world would have already ended had Tar Valon & the AS not been in existence. Who knows when it will be needed again.

 

As for the Seanchan, they control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia. They no longer have any control whatsoever over there own continent. Chaos and anarchy reign and a "murderer" rules openly in Seander. I don't know about you but three very minor countries compared to Tar Valon? That doesn't seem all that impressive.

[AshaShan]

 

You have no idea what role Tar Valon will play in the future. To take it a step further look to Randland history. There are numerous instances in which the world would have already ended had Tar Valon & the AS not been in existence. Who knows when it will be needed again.

 

As for the Seanchan, they control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia. They no longer have any control whatsoever over there own continent. Chaos and anarchy reign and a "murderer" rules openly in Seander. I don't know about you but three very minor countries compared to Tar Valon? That doesn't seem all that impressive.

 

"Randland" history likely stretches back for thousands of millenia, even if the currrent... well, savages who rule it have forgotten. The Wheel is ancient and I guarantee far greater and more important cities and empires than Tar Valon have risen and fallen over the course of that time. Dont be conned by the self-flattery of the modern day cast. If Tar Valon is burned to the ground tomorrow, the Wheel will keep right on turning, barely even noticing its absence. Just as it did for those who came before.

[Suttree]

 

You have no idea what role Tar Valon will play in the future. To take it a step further look to Randland history. There are numerous instances in which the world would have already ended had Tar Valon & the AS not been in existence. Who knows when it will be needed again.

 

As for the Seanchan, they control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia. They no longer have any control whatsoever over there own continent. Chaos and anarchy reign and a "murderer" rules openly in Seander. I don't know about you but three very minor countries compared to Tar Valon? That doesn't seem all that impressive.

 

"Randland" history likely stretches back for thousands of millenia, even if the currrent... well, savages who rule it have forgotten. The Wheel is ancient and I guarantee far greater and more important cities and empires than Tar Valon have risen and fallen over the course of that time. Dont be conned by the self-flattery of the modern day cast. If Tar Valon is burned to the ground tomorrow, the Wheel will keep right on turning, barely even noticing its absence. Just as it did for those who came before.

 

Actually I was referring to specific instances like say the Trolloc Wars. The world would have already ended had Tar Valon not held firm. Take away the AS that XXX47 seems to want leashed so bad and you have little things like Gitara not being able to send Tigraine to the waste. At that point the DR is never reborn. World ended.

 

My point is no one knows how important it may be in the future, although I agree "Great Arvalon" is a hint.

[Himiko]

And why exactly is Egwene vital to the World as Rand..if she is dead another Amyrlin will be chosen.

 

Well, yes, but your initial question was whether the Amyrlin (suggesting the position) is equal in importance to the Dragon. Now, in the case of the Dragon Reborn, the person- Rand al'Thor- and the position- the Dragon Reborn- are one and the same, in a sense. If Rand dies, there won't just be another dragon.

 

You are correct. If Egwene dies, the Hall will elect a new Amyrlin, who may well be just as effective a leader. If the Tower is without an Amyrlin at all, then you have a force of female channelers, not to mention the Tower's army, and a very wealthy city, left without a leader. I don't believe that this makes the Amyrlin equal in importance to the Dragon Reborn- at the end of the day, if there is no Dragon Reborn, the pattern ends, the world dies. If there is no Amyrlin, there is no obvious leader of the AS, meaning a large organisation of female channelers will probably fall apart and scatter, women with the spark may have a harder time finding someone to train them. The economy of Tar Valon will probably suffer, etc. A lack of Amyrlin, or a bad one, and there will be bad consequences for the world, it just won't necessarily follow that TG will be lost and the world will end. Though I daresay it would be better to have them there.

 

Once again, are you asking whether Egwene and the DR are equal, or the Amyrlin as a position and the DR are equal? In both cases, the answer is no, but there is a considerable gap between the two.

[AshaShan]

 

Actually I was referring to specific instances like say the Trolloc Wars. The world would have already ended had Tar Valon not held firm. Take away the AS that XXX47 seems to want leashed so bad and you have little things like Gitara not being able to send Tigraine to the waste. At that point the DR is never reborn. World ended.

 

My point is no one knows how important it may be in the future, although I agree "Great Arvalon" is a hint.

 

I disagree. The pattern is dscribed by RJ as a self-correcting super computer. If you take away any of the things listed above then the Pattern would simply replace them. No Gitara Moroso? Meet Mitoro Goraso. Similarly with the Trolloc Wars. If the Trollocs had won the whole of Creation would have been doomed, wail the cast of WOT. Nevermind the fact that their knowledge of their world is limited to half a continent, nevermind that the Aiel and the Ayyad were unsupported by the Aes Sedai and actually came through the wars in better condition. And nevermind the other two continents that weren't even touched by them. Beware the POV trap. Especially in the Wheel of Time where the majority of the cast think they alone know the secrets of the universe. IMO, the Pattern is no where near flimsy enough that removing one little city and the order that inhabit it would spell the doom of Creation. Especially when far greater cities and far more potant orders have already faded from existance and been almost completely forgotten. Or forgotten altogether, in the case of those places and peoples older than the second age Aes Sedai of Paaran Disen.

[Suttree]

 

Actually I was referring to specific instances like say the Trolloc Wars. The world would have already ended had Tar Valon not held firm. Take away the AS that XXX47 seems to want leashed so bad and you have little things like Gitara not being able to send Tigraine to the waste. At that point the DR is never reborn. World ended.

 

My point is no one knows how important it may be in the future, although I agree "Great Arvalon" is a hint.

 

Similarly with the Trolloc Wars. If the Trollocs had won the whole of Creation would have been doomed, wail the cast of WOT. Nevermind the fact that their knowledge of their world is limited to half a continent, nevermind that the Aiel and the Ayyad were unsupported by the Aes Sedai and actually came through the wars in better condition. And nevermind the other two continents that weren't even touched by them. Beware the POV trap.

 

 

This simply isn't true. We have no idea that either came out better but concerning Shara we know they put out misleading info

 

BWB

They often claim that even the Trolloc Wars did not touch them, despite Aiel statements that it did, and the fact that the Mountains of Dhoom and the Great Blight cut across the northern part of their land in much the same way as they do our own.

 

After 300 years of fighting if it wasn't for a change of tactics brought about by the AS and a decisive victory at the Battle of Maighande who knows how far they would have spread given total control of the main continent. As for the other two? Are you counting Land of Madmen?

[AshaShan]

 

This simply isn't true. We have no idea that either came out better but concerning Shara we know they put out misleading info

 

BWB

They often claim that even the Trolloc Wars did not touch them, despite Aiel statements that it did, and the fact that the Mountains of Dhoom and the Great Blight cut across the northern part of their land in much the same way as they do our own.

 

After 300 years of fighting if it wasn't for a change of tactics brought about by the AS and a decisive victory at the Battle of Maighande who knows how far they would have spread given total control of the main continent. As for the other two? Are you counting Land of Madmen?

 

Your quote actually supports my arguemnt. The Sharan's claim no Trollocs attacked, they also claim Hawkwings armies never arrived and that their lands have never known anything but peace. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that that is total BS.

 

The Aes Sedai have never had any influence beyond the Spine of the World and in both the known areas beyond that landmass the Trollocs were soundly defeated. Trying to say that without the Aes Sedai the Trollocs would have destroyed Creation in that conflict disregards the contributions of both those groups. Its simply not true, much as the peoples of the wetlands might enjoy flattering themselves by saying otherwise.

 

And yes I am counting the Land of the Madmen, wretched hole that it is. After all, its a wretched hole full of human beings and therefore part of the Pattern. If the main continent got glassed the Pattern could quite easily arrange for an increase in the organisation and enlightenment of the other cultures. The Britain of the Dark Ages was a pretty savage place prior to the rise of Arthur, in the legend, and we know how legends work in WOT. In fact, all nations and kingdoms of old had to start from something. Just as all technologies and philosophies had to be proposed by forward-thinking individuals.

 

No Tar Valon? A pity for some, but life goes on. Thats how I see it.

[Entreri]

I wouldn't exactly say that Egwene is an insect, but pretty close.

 

Rand, Mat and Perrin are the critical pieces.

 

 

Rand is smarter, stronger (mentally), far far stronger in the Power (strongest One Power wielder ever, maybe Ishy is as strong) and the most skilled OP wielder. Now he is essentially a mini-Creator after his englightenment at Dragonmount.

 

Egwene could be the strongest Amyrlin in a 1000 years, but can't hold a candle to AoL leaders, let alone the Dragon or the Dragon Reborn.

[mb]

some being more equal than others?

To me there is just "equal" and "not equal"; not any kind of in betweens.

It's a quote from Orwell's "Animal Farm". In the original, it was a witty way of saying that even though socialism was supposed to bring absolute equality ,what in fact emerged was a new ruling class and new division of the society. But you couldn't say it straight in that system, so it was said: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". Orwell was a genius -he made a point about socialism and in the same time showed that language itself would degenerate in this system of government. (lecture mode off, back to WOT )

In place of "are more equal", this phrase might be more accurate: "have more similarities".

[Suttree]

 

This simply isn't true. We have no idea that either came out better but concerning Shara we know they put out misleading info

 

BWB

They often claim that even the Trolloc Wars did not touch them, despite Aiel statements that it did, and the fact that the Mountains of Dhoom and the Great Blight cut across the northern part of their land in much the same way as they do our own.

 

After 300 years of fighting if it wasn't for a change of tactics brought about by the AS and a decisive victory at the Battle of Maighande who knows how far they would have spread given total control of the main continent. As for the other two? Are you counting Land of Madmen?

 

Your quote actually supports my arguemnt. The Sharan's claim no Trollocs attacked, they also claim Hawkwings armies never arrived and that their lands have never known anything but peace. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that that is total BS.

 

The Aes Sedai have never had any influence beyond the Spine of the World and in both the known areas beyond that landmass the Trollocs were soundly defeated.

 

I see your overall point but still disagree in relation to the Trolloc wars. There is nothing anywhere that states the Trollocs were soundly defeated by the Aiel and Sharans. After all if a Sharan was to show up in present day Tar Valon he would think that the Trollocs were defeated soundly there. We never got a glimps of those two cultures post the TWs. We do know also that the main brunt of the attacks went against Randland proper and who knows how long it took both societies(Aiel, Sharans) to bounce back. I could be wrong but would be willing to wager it wasn't until after the main force was defeated at the BoM that they made much of any headway.

[XXX]

Sorry the Amyrlin is head of one city state,nothing more nothing less..it does not matter in the big scheme of things if Tar Valon get's destroyed. No one cares except the AS.

The hundreds of thousands non-Aes Sedai who live in Tar Valon strongly disagree with you.

 

Not to mention that it's the biggest commercial and financial centre in Randland. But who cares, right, those arrogant Aes Sedai has to be punished at all costs...

 

 

Is Tar Valon more important than the Seachan who controls vastly more areas..including an entire continent bigger than Randland?

 

Both are not as important as the world..Tar Valon can fall into the sea and the world will live on. Rand fails and it is all over.

 

 

You have no idea what role Tar Valon will play in the future. To take it a step further look to Randland history. There are numerous instances in which the world would have already ended had Tar Valon & the AS not been in existence. Who knows when it will be needed again.

 

As for the Seanchan, they control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia. They no longer have any control whatsoever over there own continent. Chaos and anarchy reign and a "murderer" rules openly in Seander. I don't know about you but three very minor countries compared to Tar Valon? That doesn't seem all that impressive.

 

 

Even if the Seanchan just control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia that is nearly 1/3 the landmass of Randland..and they have the strongest army by far matched only by what the Dragon commands. Another reason for Egwene to bow before the Dragon..without his help her WT has no hope against the Seachan armies.

[Suttree]

Sorry the Amyrlin is head of one city state,nothing more nothing less..it does not matter in the big scheme of things if Tar Valon get's destroyed. No one cares except the AS.

The hundreds of thousands non-Aes Sedai who live in Tar Valon strongly disagree with you.

 

Not to mention that it's the biggest commercial and financial centre in Randland. But who cares, right, those arrogant Aes Sedai has to be punished at all costs...

 

 

Is Tar Valon more important than the Seachan who controls vastly more areas..including an entire continent bigger than Randland?

 

Both are not as important as the world..Tar Valon can fall into the sea and the world will live on. Rand fails and it is all over.

 

Two of the three are barely countries and the Taraboners are revolting with Ituralde while we have Altarans signing up with the Band for a chance to fight the Seanchan....

You have no idea what role Tar Valon will play in the future. To take it a step further look to Randland history. There are numerous instances in which the world would have already ended had Tar Valon & the AS not been in existence. Who knows when it will be needed again.

 

As for the Seanchan, they control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia. They no longer have any control whatsoever over there own continent. Chaos and anarchy reign and a "murderer" rules openly in Seander. I don't know about you but three very minor countries compared to Tar Valon? That doesn't seem all that impressive.

 

 

Even if the Seanchan just control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia that is nearly 1/3 the landmass of Randland..and they have the strongest army by far matched only by what the Dragon commands. Another reason for Egwene to bow before the Dragon..without his help her WT has no hope against the Seachan armies.

[Suttree]

Sorry the Amyrlin is head of one city state,nothing more nothing less..it does not matter in the big scheme of things if Tar Valon get's destroyed. No one cares except the AS.

The hundreds of thousands non-Aes Sedai who live in Tar Valon strongly disagree with you.

 

Not to mention that it's the biggest commercial and financial centre in Randland. But who cares, right, those arrogant Aes Sedai has to be punished at all costs...

 

 

Is Tar Valon more important than the Seachan who controls vastly more areas..including an entire continent bigger than Randland?

 

Both are not as important as the world..Tar Valon can fall into the sea and the world will live on. Rand fails and it is all over.

 

 

You have no idea what role Tar Valon will play in the future. To take it a step further look to Randland history. There are numerous instances in which the world would have already ended had Tar Valon & the AS not been in existence. Who knows when it will be needed again.

 

As for the Seanchan, they control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia. They no longer have any control whatsoever over there own continent. Chaos and anarchy reign and a "murderer" rules openly in Seander. I don't know about you but three very minor countries compared to Tar Valon? That doesn't seem all that impressive.

 

 

Even if the Seanchan just control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia that is nearly 1/3 the landmass of Randland..and they have the strongest army by far matched only by what the Dragon commands. Another reason for Egwene to bow before the Dragon..without his help her WT has no hope against the Seachan armies.

 

Two of the three are barely countries and the Taraboners are revolting with Ituralde while we have Altarans signing up with the Band for a chance to fight the Seanchan....I would choose Tar Valon over all that land simmering with rebellion.

[XXX]

Taraboner were rebelling with Ilturade..it still does not take away the fact that the Seachan are far far stronger than Tar Valon. Or are you going to argue that the As can fight off the Seachan by them self without the Dragon's help?

[Suttree]

Taraboner were rebelling with Ilturade..it still does not take away the fact that the Seachan are far far stronger than Tar Valon. Or are you going to argue that the As can fight off the Seachan by them self without the Dragon's help?

 

As to that I guess we will see what happens in AMoL.

[XXX]

The only 2 Monarchs not sworn to Rand one way or the other are Egwene and Elayne..both are facing massive attacks. I think he will help both on the condition that they swear to him. This way he can enforce the Dragon's peace at least on most of Randland.

[David Selig]

Berelain is not sworn to Rand either. Neither is Alliandre. And Tuon, of course.

[capuga]

Berelain is not sworn to Rand either. Neither is Alliandre. And Tuon, of course.

 

Berelain actually is. She voluntarily allied herself with him for political reasons. That's why he was able to command her to go with Perrin once he was done having her govern Cairhien for him. And Alliandre is sworn to Perrin as Rand's representative. You can count anyone sworn to Perrin as at least strongly tied to Rand and likely the same as sworn directly to him.

[XXX]

Berelain is not sworn to Rand either. Neither is Alliandre. And Tuon, of course.

 

Both are sworn to Perrin who is Rand's Steward at the 2 Rivers.

 

I believe the Dragon will repulse the attack at Tar Valon strongly and force Tuon in line. For the dragon peace to hold everyone has to swear to do as the Dragon wishes.

[David Selig]

Berelain is not sworn to Rand either. Neither is Alliandre. And Tuon, of course.

 

Berelain actually is. She voluntarily allied herself with him for political reasons. That's why he was able to command her to go with Perrin once he was done having her govern Cairhien for him. And Alliandre is sworn to Perrin as Rand's representative. You can count anyone sworn to Perrin as at least strongly tied to Rand and likely the same as sworn directly to him.

Berelain was a voluntary ally, but I don't recall actually swearing fealty to Rand, though maybe I've forgotten it.

[UncleButcher1980]

v

I wouldn't exactly say that Egwene is an insect, but pretty close.

 

Rand, Mat and Perrin are the critical pieces.

 

 

Rand is smarter, stronger (mentally), far far stronger in the Power (strongest One Power wielder ever, maybe Ishy is as strong) and the most skilled OP wielder. Now he is essentially a mini-Creator after his englightenment at Dragonmount.

 

I'm not sure Rand is stronger mentally, given the events at Maradon I'd say he's still of a fragile state of mind.

[Muad Cheade]

Even if the Seanchan just control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia that is nearly 1/3 the landmass of Randland..and they have the strongest army by far matched only by what the Dragon commands. Another reason for Egwene to bow before the Dragon..without his help her WT has no hope against the Seachan armies.

 

Taraboner were rebelling with Ilturade..it still does not take away the fact that the Seachan are far far stronger than Tar Valon. Or are you going to argue that the As can fight off the Seachan by them self without the Dragon's help?

 

The only 2 Monarchs not sworn to Rand one way or the other are Egwene and Elayne..both are facing massive attacks. I think he will help both on the condition that they swear to him. This way he can enforce the Dragon's peace at least on most of Randland.

 

Rand was not able to defeat the Seanchan either. No nation in Aviendha's vision will be able to. Does that mean everyone is inferior to Tuon. No.

 

This topic is illogical and unnecessary. Of course, Rand is the most important person on the planet as was Lews Therin Telamon in his time. Only they could/can fight against the Dark One. That doesn't mean Egwene's importance is negligent, or is Mat or Perrin or Elayne etc. They're all needed just like when the champion of the Light goes to the Shadow, the Light doesn't win. It merely "draws" as RJ said. Everyone is needed.