Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Kahsm]

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

She can access her full strength without training - she just needs to be angry enough. So I'd say it doesn't bear to reason. No, without any training Nynaeve will be stronger - but that won't make her a bonfire next to their candles.

That does not make any sense.. both Egwene and Ny will get the same amount of training..the difference is the amount of strength each have, as that is the only thing Moraine is able to gauge. Moraine does not anything about how well Egwene and Ny will learn..she is going by the only thing she can gauge. Ny is much more powerful.

But she specifies with training. Training won't make Nynaeve stronger than she would be untrained. Therefore this cannot be considered a particularly helpful quote. That Nynaeve is stronger than Egwene is well established. But this quote doesn't prove a massive difference, so I wouldn't rely on it.

...so because Egwene is depicted as a candle to Ny's bonfire it is not helpful?. Well unless you prove with a quote from the books that Egwene is anything better than the candle to Ny's bonfire, we will stick with this comparison. After all you have no evidence it is anything but this.

Egwene is a candle next to Nynaeve's bonfire, remembering that the Oaths allow for exaggeration and this wasn't an assessment of their relative strengths. So what exactly does this quote prove? Nothing at all, Egwene lover, nothing at all.

 

And how exactly do you know Moriane's quote is an exaggeration...please give me a quote from the book which says Moraine was wrong?

 

There is no evidence Moraine is wrong..Egwene lovers have strange logic.

 

Uhh, the quote from the author that specifically says Egwene is 1 step below Nynaeve? That's the rankings he used while writing the books. So whatever goes on in the book is based off the 21 point scale. And on that scale, Egwene is _one_ step lower.

 

Also, the reason Moir would say that is because they had just mentioned the Reds 'discovered' Elayne and were bragging about finding someone so strong, and Moir was saying that Egwene is at least as strong and that Nyn DOMINATES them both. And they SPECIFICALLY state in the same scene how that would be good for the blue ajah to have the credit for finding the two to counter-balance the reds finding Elayne. So there's an extremely good reason for Moir to be exaggerating.

 

Not that it even matters given the author's quote.

[sleepinghour]

The only female forsaken that we can't place for certain is Mesaana- we have a quote saying she's not particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

Egwene described Mesaana as "very strong in the Power." If Mesaana had been weaker or of the same strength as Egwene, I think it would have been said. Brandon said Mesaana was weaker than Nynaeve and not particularly strong in Forsaken terms, so Egwene's estimation was probably in relation to her own strength.

 

I'm sorry, but establishing Nynaeve as a skilled channeler, who learns weaves very, very quickly, but specialises herself largely in healing, through most of the series, and then have another character suddenly comment on how lame she is on anything outside of healing, when we've never seen any evidence of this in her actual weaving, except for someone else, also very skilled at healing, being better than her in healing, isn't "giving your character realistic weaknesses", its really inconsistent.

Even stranger is that it's Cadsuane who says this after meeting Nynaeve in Far Madding where she can't possibly have seen Nynaeve channel, aside from the two times they went riding outside the Guardian's reach. Did Cadsuane have Nynaeve demonstrate all the weaves she knows while on horseback?

 

IMO, RJ was trying to set up Nynaeve and Alivia as polar opposites.

 

Cadsuane about Nynaeve in WH: "The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal."

 

Verin about Alivia in WH: "I believe she may know almost every way there is to destroy something with the Power, but she knows almost nothing else."

 

So Alivia who only knows how to destroy is going to help Rand die, while Nynaeve who has focused on Healing to the exclusion of almost everything else is going to help Rand live again (at least, this has been heavily foreshadowed). RJ liked to add that sort of symbolism everywhere...even where it didn't make a lot of sense. In ToM, Mesaana was called "the Shadow's Amyrlin" to make her seem more like Egwene's dark counterpart.

[Kahsm]

The only female forsaken that we can't place for certain is Mesaana- we have a quote saying she's not particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

Egwene described Mesaana as "very strong in the Power." If Mesaana had been weaker or of the same strength as Egwene, I think it would have been said. Brandon said Mesaana was weaker than Nynaeve and not particularly strong in Forsaken terms, so Egwene's estimation was probably in relation to her own strength.

 

I'm sorry, but establishing Nynaeve as a skilled channeler, who learns weaves very, very quickly, but specialises herself largely in healing, through most of the series, and then have another character suddenly comment on how lame she is on anything outside of healing, when we've never seen any evidence of this in her actual weaving, except for someone else, also very skilled at healing, being better than her in healing, isn't "giving your character realistic weaknesses", its really inconsistent.

Even stranger is that it's Cadsuane who says this after meeting Nynaeve in Far Madding where she can't possibly have seen Nynaeve channel, aside from the two times they went riding outside the Guardian's reach. Did Cadsuane have Nynaeve demonstrate all the weaves she knows while on horseback?

 

IMO, RJ was trying to set up Nynaeve and Alivia as polar opposites.

 

Cadsuane about Nynaeve in WH: "The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal."

 

Verin about Alivia in WH: "I believe she may know almost every way there is to destroy something with the Power, but she knows almost nothing else."

 

So Alivia who only knows how to destroy is going to help Rand die, while Nynaeve who has focused on Healing to the exclusion of almost everything else is going to help Rand live again (at least, this has been heavily foreshadowed). RJ liked to add that sort of symbolism everywhere...even where it didn't make a lot of sense. In ToM, Mesaana was called "the Shadow's Amyrlin" to make her seem more like Egwene's dark counterpart.

 

I can agree with the Nyn weaving assessment. I do believe Nyn is supposed to be the healer, in contrast to Alivia. I suspect RJ might say she was more lucky than she thinks fighting Mogh. Similar to what BS says about Gawyn after writing him like a sword god.

 

As for Egwene, I think her assessment would be relative to Aes Sedai in general. So it depends how strong she thinks she is. And given good ol' Egwene confidence, I'd say she also considers herself very strong.

 

And I just thought of this now. Egwene complimenting Nyn could very well be chalked up to the friend perspective. Like how Rand says Perrin is better with women, but Perrin says Rand is better with women.

[XXX]

 

 

Uhh, the quote from the author that specifically says Egwene is 1 step below Nynaeve? That's the rankings he used while writing the books. So whatever goes on in the book is based off the 21 point scale. And on that scale, Egwene is _one_ step lower.

 

 

 

And do we know how much one step lower is..is each step the equivalent of the difference between a candle and a bonfire?

 

We know Moggy is stronger than Egwene and weaker than Ny...so there seems to be lots of space between the "steps".

[Kahsm]

 

 

Uhh, the quote from the author that specifically says Egwene is 1 step below Nynaeve? That's the rankings he used while writing the books. So whatever goes on in the book is based off the 21 point scale. And on that scale, Egwene is _one_ step lower.

 

 

 

And do we know how much one step lower is..is each step the equivalent of the difference between a candle and a bonfire?

 

We know Moggy is stronger than Egwene and weaker than Ny...so there seems to be lots of space between the "steps".

 

That's fine, but this discussion started because I suggested Nyn couldn't man-handle Egwene purely overpowering her with the OP. And 1 level, no matter how large, on a spectim of 21 is not that far. Also, she couldn't dominate Elayne. So it still stands that Nyn is not so strong Egwene would be completely shut down.

[XXX]

I think Egwene will win whatever her strength is..Ny does not know how to fight, she is the type who will use a hammer to smash a mosquito as shown by the example in the prison at Tear when she made a massive column of air(?) to smash the door and Egwene simply picked the lock.

[Durinax]

I think Egwene will win whatever her strength is..Ny does not know how to fight, she is the type who will use a hammer to smash a mosquito as shown by the example in the prison at Tear when she made a massive column of air(?) to smash the door and Egwene simply picked the lock.

have to remember that was back when nyn had to be absolutely furious to channel, thus she was likely less fine in her weaving

[sleepinghour]

That's fine, but this discussion started because I suggested Nyn couldn't man-handle Egwene purely overpowering her with the OP. And 1 level, no matter how large, on a spectim of 21 is not that far. Also, she couldn't dominate Elayne. So it still stands that Nyn is not so strong Egwene would be completely shut down.

The original signing report said:

 

On channeler strength he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, ie as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha was a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine was found.

Unfortunately it's only a signing report so we don't have a verbatim quote to go on, but IMO RJ was saying Egwene/Elayne are below Nynaeve and the entire Forsaken strength group, not that they are only 1 point below Nynaeve on the 21-graded scale. Moiraine is not just a single point below Egwene/Elayne either; we know Cadsuane is inbetween.

 

Nynaeve (at full strength) is stronger than Moghedien. Moghedien is stronger than Egwene. Ergo there are at least 2 points between Nynaeve and Egwene.

[Kahsm]

That's fine, but this discussion started because I suggested Nyn couldn't man-handle Egwene purely overpowering her with the OP. And 1 level, no matter how large, on a spectim of 21 is not that far. Also, she couldn't dominate Elayne. So it still stands that Nyn is not so strong Egwene would be completely shut down.

The original signing report said:

 

On channeler strength he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, ie as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha was a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine was found.

Unfortunately it's only a signing report so we don't have a verbatim quote to go on, but IMO RJ was saying Egwene/Elayne are below Nynaeve and the entire Forsaken strength group, not that they are only 1 point below Nynaeve on the 21-graded scale. Moiraine is not just a single point below Egwene/Elayne either; we know Cadsuane is inbetween.

 

Nynaeve (at full strength) is stronger than Moghedien. Moghedien is stronger than Egwene. Ergo there are at least 2 points between Nynaeve and Egwene.

 

You missed my point. Yes there are waaaay more than 21 ranks. Obviously no two people are going to be exactly the same strength and you could rank them all exactly if you had enough info. My point was Jordan used a 21 point scale to write the books and felt that was enough precision to determine who defers to who and who could shield who and such. There's even another paraphrased report about shielding specifically where RJ actually kinda makes it up as he goes...

 

Q:  How much stronger do you have to be to forcibly shield someone else who is already holding the One Power? Is it different for men than for women, or for heterosexual shielding? If the answer is only a little stronger, then ask him how come Nynaeve couldn't shield Elayne in A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 (Swovan Night)? Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?

RJ:  He did not use a "real scale" for One Power stuff. You just have to be stronger. Mostly handwaving. Consider the Kin. The woman who is very weak but has a real Talent for shielding.

 

Of course this sub-discussion started when I claimed Egwene could slice Nyn's flows and others claimed she was too strong. Given she's only "one step" below on the scale RJ roughly used to determine those things, and we know lanfear sliced Rand just fine, I still believe Egwene is strong enough.

 

And before arguing male v female about rand and lanfear see an earlier post of mine. Basically despite fem skill balance, a man's flows are still stronger and were still sliced.

[XXX]

When Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves..Rand was not at full strength. Did she not do that at Tear when Rand had just started channeling?

[Kahsm]

When Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves..Rand was not at full strength. Did she not do that at Tear when Rand had just started channeling?

 

She also likely had an angreal, to argue against myself. But I stand by Egwene, the difference just doesn't seem to be enough to make Nyn's flows invincible to Eggs.

[XXX]

When Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves..Rand was not at full strength. Did she not do that at Tear when Rand had just started channeling?

 

She also likely had an angreal, to argue against myself. But I stand by Egwene, the difference just doesn't seem to be enough to make Nyn's flows invincible to Eggs.

 

She had an angreal?..I thought she got her ivory bracelet angreal from the wagon at Cairhien?

[Luckers]

There is nothing to indicate that strength would stop a person being able to slice your weaves--certainly Moiraine sliced Merean's in New Spring when Merean was far stronger than she.

[Kahsm]

When Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves..Rand was not at full strength. Did she not do that at Tear when Rand had just started channeling?

She also likely had an angreal, to argue against myself. But I stand by Egwene, the difference just doesn't seem to be enough to make Nyn's flows invincible to Eggs.

She had an angreal?..I thought she got her ivory bracelet angreal from the wagon at Cairhien?

 

Lanfear? Forsaken always have angreal, if small ones. As I said, I was arguing against myself.

 

There is nothing to indicate that strength would stop a person being able to slice your weaves--certainly Moiraine sliced Merean's in New Spring when Merean was far stronger than she.

 

Well there you go. I only ever read NS once and didn't pay much attention, I should read it again TBO.

 

It seems to make sense that if you were strong enough you could somehow resist slicing. To use the weaving/tying/threads analogies it would be like trying to "slice" a bridge cable (Rand) with an edge-sharpened sewing pin (Moir sans angreal). And it mirrors shielding, though yes shielding is obviously different (exists in two places like the bore and all that).

[Ala Rubra]

Lanfear? Forsaken always have angreal, if small ones. As I said, I was arguing against myself.

 

It's really hard to take you seriously when you post stuff like this. Graendel is the only Forsaken to have an angreal, aside from the very short instant in Cairhien when Lanfear picked up one (and subsequently lost it in the ToG).

 

Edit: I'm going solely off memory here, but if I'm wrong I'll eat a hat.

[Kahsm]

Lanfear? Forsaken always have angreal, if small ones. As I said, I was arguing against myself.

 

It's really hard to take you seriously when you post stuff like this. Graendel is the only Forsaken to have an angreal, aside from the very short instant in Cairhien when Lanfear picked up one (and subsequently lost it in the ToG).

 

Edit: I'm going solely off memory here, but if I'm wrong I'll eat a hat.

 

Not sure why you're so hostile, but then qualify your own post that you might be wrong. I may also be wrong, hell I'm about to try and defend a point I made that argues against a different point I made. I'm not here to simply convince you or change minds in any of my posts, just develop more truth. Accept it or not. Of course I am happy to argue against you as much as I am against myself if things seem off =)

 

Messana gave Graendal the dagger angreal after she lost the ring, so obviously there are more out there. Why wouldn't they be using them?

[XXX]

The forsaken do not have many angreal..Graendal had the ring and dagger which someone else(I thought it was Semirhage gave her but maybe Messana as you say). No other angreal is mentioned in the books among the forsaken.

[Kahsm]

The forsaken do not have many angreal..Graendal had the ring and dagger which someone else(I thought it was Semirhage gave her but maybe Messana as you say). No other angreal is mentioned in the books among the forsaken.

 

What kind of proof is that? The dagger wasn't mentioned until we hear Messana gave it to her. Ok so NOW they've run out of angreal. Got it.

[Lacanos]

Lanfear? Forsaken always have angreal, if small ones. As I said, I was arguing against myself.

 

It's really hard to take you seriously when you post stuff like this. Graendel is the only Forsaken to have an angreal, aside from the very short instant in Cairhien when Lanfear picked up one (and subsequently lost it in the ToG).

 

Edit: I'm going solely off memory here, but if I'm wrong I'll eat a hat.

 

 

Can we have pictures of you eating this hat please, as Graendal has had two angreals, Mesaana traded her one so presumably has another, 99% sure Moridin will have several in his storeroom "filled" with items of the power.

[Ala Rubra]

Can we have pictures of you eating this hat please, as Graendal has had two angreals, Mesaana traded her one so presumably has another, 99% sure Moridin will have several in his storeroom "filled" with items of the power.

 

Rahvin didn't have one. Sammael didn't have one. Be'lal didn't have one. Aginor and Bathamael did not have angreal, nor did their second chances. Neither Ishmael nor Moridin have been seen with one. Cyndane/Lanfear did not have one. Semirhage didn't have one. Asmodean didn't have one. Moghedien didn't have one. Even if Messana actually had the one, she never used it, and Demandrad is such a narrative non-entity that he doesn't really matter, but it is worth noting that he didn't bring one to the cleansing in WH.

 

So... the only Forsaken that we know has an angreal is Graendal, and she's never had more than one at a time.

[Jon Paul]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

[XXX]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

 

Bad example..Obama thinks he is Jesus Christ.

[lilltempest]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

 

Bad example..Obama thinks he is Jesus Christ.

 

No, he thinks he's God.

[Skeeve the Great]

Off-topic: What exactly Obama did that you claim such a thing?

[Jon Paul]

I think that makes it more apt, Triple X. Egwene thinks she's the Dragon, Obama thinks he's Jesus.