Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[capuga]

Ares, can you provide evidence that Elsa Grinwell doesnt have Forsaken level? Joline, Siuan Sanche, etc.

 

Why should he? He's not claiming that they're not. If he said Elsa is not Forsaken level strength like others have done for Egwene, then he would need to provide quotes and evidence to support that position. As others have posted but apparently no one reads, Mr Ares isn't necessarily an Egwene lover, nor does he believe that Egwene is as strong as a Forsaken, or that she's as skilled as Rand. All he's saying is that there is not enough evidence to conclusively state that Egwene does not have Forsaken level strength or any of the others claims made as fact. He's just asking for evidence. Just like the evidence that people think says Moggy is the weakest Forsaken doesn't exist. I doubt Egwene is as strong as even the weakest Forsaken. Mr Ares probably doubts this as well. The text implies this. But there isn't enough evidence to just baldly state these kinds of things as fact rather than well supported opinion.

[Kahsm]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Egwene could have greater fighting prowess than Nyaneve, however, Nyaneve would easily overwhelm her outside of TAR.

 

Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, with only Lanfear, Cyndane and Grandael being stronger amongst the Forsaken and Alivia among the none Forsaken (Sharina has barely started to channel).

 

Thus Nynaeve can shield Egwene and easily defeat her (outside of TAR or balefire).

 

Alivia being "considerably/much stronger": Nynaeve said and she would overwhelm her whatever she tried against Alivia. Of course this was probably before she realized Alivia had little or no defensive capablities with saidar.

 

 

100 Weaves for AS testing:

Moraine (New Spring) said they were "extermely complex".

Egwene (Towers of Midnight) said there were "very complex" and she has not learned them all.

Nyaneve (Towers of Midnight) thought nothing of them and has already learned them. Anything Nyaneve sees once, she remembers. She was not impressed in the least at the Weave Egwene created in TAR against eavesdropping (Elayne was amazed at the complexity of it)

 

This hints at their realtive skills at Weaving the OP: Nynaeve >> Egwene > Moraine. Elyane is possibly greater than Moraine.

 

Nynaeve defeated one-on-one, without any aid Moghidien when she was an Accepted, which is an accomplishment almost nobody could match or beat aside from the DR (e.g. Ishamael at the EoTW).

 

Egwene could have 5 weaves of spirit going just slicing jsut about everything Nyn can weave and still have a buttload of potential left for offensive things. What was her max 14? We've seen Nyn do up to "half a dozen" I think? Egwene would dominate Nyn.

 

And for the record, I am an "Egwene lover" and I am not defending the Egwene is forsaken strength position. So lets not generalize too harshly ;). I believe she's Elayne's level just below them.

[Suttree]

Ares, can you provide evidence that Elsa Grinwell doesnt have Forsaken level? Joline, Siuan Sanche, etc.

 

Why should he? He's not claiming that they're not. If he said Elsa is not Forsaken level strength like others have done for Egwene, then he would need to provide quotes and evidence to support that position. As others have posted but apparently no one reads, Mr Ares isn't necessarily an Egwene lover, nor does he believe that Egwene is as strong as a Forsaken, or that she's as skilled as Rand. All he's saying is that there is not enough evidence to conclusively state that Egwene does not have Forsaken level strength or any of the others claims made as fact. He's just asking for evidence. Just like the evidence that people think says Moggy is the weakest Forsaken doesn't exist. I doubt Egwene is as strong as even the weakest Forsaken. Mr Ares probably doubts this as well. The text implies this. But there isn't enough evidence to just baldly state these kinds of things as fact rather than well supported opinion.

 

Good call and this is obvs the point Mr Ares was trying to make. Some posters are taking quotes and sprinting far past what they actually mean in making claims to support their view. Moggy is weakest, Egwene is "no where close" to forsaken level strength etc.

 

btw:

 

but it got hijacked by Egwene lovers to compare her strength with others people, pretty par for course.

 

How good is that quote? Par for the course threads getting jacked by "Egwene lovers"! Yeah cause there is always suuuucchhh a surplus of those on DM.

[randsc]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Egwene could have greater fighting prowess than Nyaneve, however, Nyaneve would easily overwhelm her outside of TAR.

 

Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, with only Lanfear, Cyndane and Grandael being stronger amongst the Forsaken and Alivia among the none Forsaken (Sharina has barely started to channel).

 

Thus Nynaeve can shield Egwene and easily defeat her (outside of TAR or balefire).

 

Alivia being "considerably/much stronger": Nynaeve said and she would overwhelm her whatever she tried against Alivia. Of course this was probably before she realized Alivia had little or no defensive capablities with saidar.

 

 

100 Weaves for AS testing:

Moraine (New Spring) said they were "extermely complex".

Egwene (Towers of Midnight) said there were "very complex" and she has not learned them all.

Nyaneve (Towers of Midnight) thought nothing of them and has already learned them. Anything Nyaneve sees once, she remembers. She was not impressed in the least at the Weave Egwene created in TAR against eavesdropping (Elayne was amazed at the complexity of it)

 

This hints at their realtive skills at Weaving the OP: Nynaeve >> Egwene > Moraine. Elyane is possibly greater than Moraine.

 

Nynaeve defeated one-on-one, without any aid Moghidien when she was an Accepted, which is an accomplishment almost nobody could match or beat aside from the DR (e.g. Ishamael at the EoTW).

 

Egwene could have 5 weaves of spirit going just slicing jsut about everything Nyn can weave and still have a buttload of potential left for offensive things. What was her max 14? We've seen Nyn do up to "half a dozen" I think? Egwene would dominate Nyn.

 

And for the record, I am an "Egwene lover" and I am not defending the Egwene is forsaken strength position. So lets not generalize too harshly ;). I believe she's Elayne's level just below them.

 

It is made explicitly clear in many places in the books that Egwene is no match for Nynaeve. This: "Egwene could have 5 weaves of spirit going just slicing jsut about everything Nyn can weave" is not the way that severing someones weaves works. You need to have power behind your weaves, or they can just be beaten away. Again, made explicitly clear several times.

 

If Egwene were to best Nynaeve in a magical duel, it will be because Egwene is demonstrably capable of a degree of ruthlessness that Nynaeve is not.

[so´jhin]

Ares, can you provide evidence that Elsa Grinwell doesnt have Forsaken level? Joline, Siuan Sanche, etc.

 

Why should he? He's not claiming that they're not. If he said Elsa is not Forsaken level strength like others have done for Egwene, then he would need to provide quotes and evidence to support that position. As others have posted but apparently no one reads, Mr Ares isn't necessarily an Egwene lover, nor does he believe that Egwene is as strong as a Forsaken, or that she's as skilled as Rand. All he's saying is that there is not enough evidence to conclusively state that Egwene does not have Forsaken level strength or any of the others claims made as fact. He's just asking for evidence. Just like the evidence that people think says Moggy is the weakest Forsaken doesn't exist. I doubt Egwene is as strong as even the weakest Forsaken. Mr Ares probably doubts this as well. The text implies this. But there isn't enough evidence to just baldly state these kinds of things as fact rather than well supported opinion.

 

yes but if we follow Ares´s logic then Elsa Grinwell could be as strong as one of the forseken. She could have forsaken level. Cuz "there isn't enough evidence" that she doesnt have that kind of level.

[Cybertrolloc]

Actually she does, she was impersonated by at least one forsaken :) There's author fiat that Else didn't have much potential at all iirc, if not something explicit in the books (Suian says something to ny in the kitchens in tDR about it?)

 

I know, let's all say something nice about Egwene: alright I got nothing off the top of my head.

[Ala Rubra]

Ares, can you provide evidence that Elsa Grinwell doesnt have Forsaken level? Joline, Siuan Sanche, etc.

 

Why should he? He's not claiming that they're not. If he said Elsa is not Forsaken level strength like others have done for Egwene, then he would need to provide quotes and evidence to support that position. As others have posted but apparently no one reads, Mr Ares isn't necessarily an Egwene lover, nor does he believe that Egwene is as strong as a Forsaken, or that she's as skilled as Rand. All he's saying is that there is not enough evidence to conclusively state that Egwene does not have Forsaken level strength or any of the others claims made as fact. He's just asking for evidence. Just like the evidence that people think says Moggy is the weakest Forsaken doesn't exist. I doubt Egwene is as strong as even the weakest Forsaken. Mr Ares probably doubts this as well. The text implies this. But there isn't enough evidence to just baldly state these kinds of things as fact rather than well supported opinion.

 

yes but if we follow Ares´s logic then Elsa Grinwell could be as strong as one of the forseken. She could have forsaken level. Cuz "there isn't enough evidence" that she doesnt have that kind of level.

 

You're right, she could be (barring any evidence that exists about her strength that hasn't been provided). We don't know who the weakest Forsaken is, and we don't know how that weakest Forsaken compares in strength to Else (or Egwene or whoever).

 

That's it.

 

No one is saying that Egwene (or Else) is, in fact, as strong as even the weakest of the Forsaken, whoever that may be, we're just saying that there is no evidence one way or the other. She could be, she could not be.

[Entreri]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Egwene could have greater fighting prowess than Nyaneve, however, Nyaneve would easily overwhelm her outside of TAR.

 

Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, with only Lanfear, Cyndane and Grandael being stronger amongst the Forsaken and Alivia among the none Forsaken (Sharina has barely started to channel).

 

Thus Nynaeve can shield Egwene and easily defeat her (outside of TAR or balefire).

 

Alivia being "considerably/much stronger": Nynaeve said and she would overwhelm her whatever she tried against Alivia. Of course this was probably before she realized Alivia had little or no defensive capablities with saidar.

 

 

100 Weaves for AS testing:

Moraine (New Spring) said they were "extermely complex".

Egwene (Towers of Midnight) said there were "very complex" and she has not learned them all.

Nyaneve (Towers of Midnight) thought nothing of them and has already learned them. Anything Nyaneve sees once, she remembers. She was not impressed in the least at the Weave Egwene created in TAR against eavesdropping (Elayne was amazed at the complexity of it)

 

This hints at their realtive skills at Weaving the OP: Nynaeve >> Egwene > Moraine. Elyane is possibly greater than Moraine.

 

Nynaeve defeated one-on-one, without any aid Moghidien when she was an Accepted, which is an accomplishment almost nobody could match or beat aside from the DR (e.g. Ishamael at the EoTW).

 

Egwene could have 5 weaves of spirit going just slicing jsut about everything Nyn can weave and still have a buttload of potential left for offensive things. What was her max 14? We've seen Nyn do up to "half a dozen" I think? Egwene would dominate Nyn.

 

And for the record, I am an "Egwene lover" and I am not defending the Egwene is forsaken strength position. So lets not generalize too harshly ;). I believe she's Elayne's level just below them.

 

 

The number of Weaves one can use at once depends largely on strength (tSR):

 

Egwene PoV: "Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many way, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have being weaving a dozen".

 

I am not sure where it says Ewgene can do 14 Weaves at once without aid of an angreal or sa'angrel, even assuming this, given that Nynaeve at the time of tSR at best equaled Moghidien, probably weaker (it was the beginning of the book and many months past since she confronted Moghdien) and now is slightly stronger than Semirhage, given the above quote implies very strongly that Nynave's max >> Egwene's max.

 

Lanfear of course handled Egwene and Avienhda like kittens.

 

Nynaeve would easily defeat Egwene is a face-to-face confrontation (excluding balefire, TAR and excluding OP items).

 

 

 

 

Brandon: "How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in OP strength?

"I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close. RJ has a list of all the channeler’s strengths. On that list, only 6 people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much anytime we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said. There are two OP strength scales — an ‘old’ and a ‘new’. Nynaeve was the top of the female list for the ‘old’ list. Six are stronger on the ‘new’ list. "

 

Lanfear, Alivia, Cyndane, Sharina, Grandael and X (possibly some Seanchan damane yet to be seen or it could be Someryn). Someryn has never met anyone stronger than her or even near. Sevanna suspected Grandael was "stronger".

 

 

This list will probably be released after book 14.

[XXX]

Ares, can you provide evidence that Elsa Grinwell doesnt have Forsaken level? Joline, Siuan Sanche, etc.

 

Why should he? He's not claiming that they're not. If he said Elsa is not Forsaken level strength like others have done for Egwene, then he would need to provide quotes and evidence to support that position. As others have posted but apparently no one reads, Mr Ares isn't necessarily an Egwene lover, nor does he believe that Egwene is as strong as a Forsaken, or that she's as skilled as Rand. All he's saying is that there is not enough evidence to conclusively state that Egwene does not have Forsaken level strength or any of the others claims made as fact. He's just asking for evidence. Just like the evidence that people think says Moggy is the weakest Forsaken doesn't exist. I doubt Egwene is as strong as even the weakest Forsaken. Mr Ares probably doubts this as well. The text implies this. But there isn't enough evidence to just baldly state these kinds of things as fact rather than well supported opinion.

 

yes but if we follow Ares´s logic then Elsa Grinwell could be as strong as one of the forseken. She could have forsaken level. Cuz "there isn't enough evidence" that she doesnt have that kind of level.

 

You're right, she could be (barring any evidence that exists about her strength that hasn't been provided). We don't know who the weakest Forsaken is, and we don't know how that weakest Forsaken compares in strength to Else (or Egwene or whoever).

 

That's it.

 

No one is saying that Egwene (or Else) is, in fact, as strong as even the weakest of the Forsaken, whoever that may be, we're just saying that there is no evidence one way or the other. She could be, she could not be.

 

Let us stick to the thread topic...

 

Is Egwene stronger or equal to the Dragon in any aspect of the OP or political and military strength..or will Egwene lovers start saying that there is no evidence Egwene is weaker than the Dragon Reborn himself.

[sleepinghour]

The BWB doesn't say much about the female Forsaken's strengths, only that Lanfear was "possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael" and "Moghedien could not hope to match Lanfear's superior strength."

 

However, some people think the order in which they are listed follows OP strength. Among the men, Ishamael is mentioned first, then Aginor (who is referred to as "the second most powerful man") second, and Asmodean last. The list of female Forsaken -- Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, Mesaana, Moghedien -- also fits with what we know about their respective strengths.

 

I wouldn't really consider that proof of anything, but it's why some people think the BWB confirms the strength ranking.

[Kahsm]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Egwene could have greater fighting prowess than Nyaneve, however, Nyaneve would easily overwhelm her outside of TAR.

 

Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, with only Lanfear, Cyndane and Grandael being stronger amongst the Forsaken and Alivia among the none Forsaken (Sharina has barely started to channel).

 

Thus Nynaeve can shield Egwene and easily defeat her (outside of TAR or balefire).

 

Alivia being "considerably/much stronger": Nynaeve said and she would overwhelm her whatever she tried against Alivia. Of course this was probably before she realized Alivia had little or no defensive capablities with saidar.

 

 

100 Weaves for AS testing:

Moraine (New Spring) said they were "extermely complex".

Egwene (Towers of Midnight) said there were "very complex" and she has not learned them all.

Nyaneve (Towers of Midnight) thought nothing of them and has already learned them. Anything Nyaneve sees once, she remembers. She was not impressed in the least at the Weave Egwene created in TAR against eavesdropping (Elayne was amazed at the complexity of it)

 

This hints at their realtive skills at Weaving the OP: Nynaeve >> Egwene > Moraine. Elyane is possibly greater than Moraine.

 

Nynaeve defeated one-on-one, without any aid Moghidien when she was an Accepted, which is an accomplishment almost nobody could match or beat aside from the DR (e.g. Ishamael at the EoTW).

 

Egwene could have 5 weaves of spirit going just slicing jsut about everything Nyn can weave and still have a buttload of potential left for offensive things. What was her max 14? We've seen Nyn do up to "half a dozen" I think? Egwene would dominate Nyn.

 

And for the record, I am an "Egwene lover" and I am not defending the Egwene is forsaken strength position. So lets not generalize too harshly ;). I believe she's Elayne's level just below them.

 

 

The number of Weaves one can use at once depends largely on strength (tSR):

 

Egwene PoV: "Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many way, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have being weaving a dozen".

 

I am not sure where it says Ewgene can do 14 Weaves at once without aid of an angreal or sa'angrel, even assuming this, given that Nynaeve at the time of tSR at best equaled Moghidien, probably weaker (it was the beginning of the book and many months past since she confronted Moghdien) and now is slightly stronger than Semirhage, given the above quote implies very strongly that Nynave's max >> Egwene's max.

 

Lanfear of course handled Egwene and Avienhda like kittens.

 

Nynaeve would easily defeat Egwene is a face-to-face confrontation (excluding balefire, TAR and excluding OP items).

 

KoD chapter 24 she is asked by an Accepted teacher in a novice class to make a ball of fire and instead she makes a bunch of balls and some rings "dividing her flows fourteen ways". No angreal for certain and even doused with forkroot, though I'll give Nyn benefit of the doubt that it doesn't hurt Egg's splitting.

 

She is an agile channeler. Call it a talent if you want. Rand has it too. Yes strength makes it easier to be agile, but some people are also more agile than they are strong. Either way, Egwene could weave circles around Nyn.

 

As for Egwene not being able to slice Nyn's flows. She's not THAT much weaker. "a step below" I believe the quote was? Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves quite effortlessly.

[Luckers]

Can I make the devil's argument? In the War of the Shadow, all Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow called themselves Chosen--with 3% of the population able to channel, and pretty much all except a few odd balls trained, there would have needed to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Chosen (or else the Aes Sedai would have slaughtered them). Logically, many of these would be very weak.

 

Thus, not only is Egwene at Chosen level, so too is, say, Sorilea. :P

[SuperFade]

Can I make the devil's argument? In the War of the Shadow, all Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow called themselves Chosen--with 3% of the population able to channel, and pretty much all except a few odd balls trained, there would have needed to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Chosen (or else the Aes Sedai would have slaughtered them). Logically, many of these would be very weak.

 

Thus, not only is Egwene at Chosen level, so too is, say, Sorilea. :P

 

But this isn't the War of the Shadow. It's the Third Age. It's pretty clear the argument is about the thirteen Chosen that exist right now. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Luckers]

Can I make the devil's argument? In the War of the Shadow, all Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow called themselves Chosen--with 3% of the population able to channel, and pretty much all except a few odd balls trained, there would have needed to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Chosen (or else the Aes Sedai would have slaughtered them). Logically, many of these would be very weak.

 

Thus, not only is Egwene at Chosen level, so too is, say, Sorilea. :P

 

But this isn't the War of the Shadow. It's the Third Age. It's pretty clear the argument is about the thirteen Chosen that exist right now. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

Mostly, I'm making a joke.

[Ala Rubra]

KoD chapter 24 she is asked by an Accepted teacher in a novice class to make a ball of fire and instead she makes a bunch of balls and some rings "dividing her flows fourteen ways". No angreal for certain and even doused with forkroot, though I'll give Nyn benefit of the doubt that it doesn't hurt Egg's splitting.

 

She is an agile channeler. Call it a talent if you want. Rand has it too. Yes strength makes it easier to be agile, but some people are also more agile than they are strong. Either way, Egwene could weave circles around Nyn.

 

As for Egwene not being able to slice Nyn's flows. She's not THAT much weaker. "a step below" I believe the quote was? Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves quite effortlessly.

 

There is no evidence that Egwene can split her weaves more ways than Nynaeve. For one thing, we don't even know what Egwene's limit is when splitting weaves, let alone Nynaeve's. Again, we also don't know just how much stronger Nynaeve is than Egwene. You could be right, that Egwene is both not much weaker than Nynaeve and more "agile", but until you find some actual proof...

 

Edit: However, we do know that there are at least two channelers in-between Egwene and Nynaeve in strength: Moghedien and Semirhage. Do I also need to point out that comparing the strongest female channeler to the strongest male channeler is different than comparing two female channelers of differing strengths?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Can I make the devil's argument? In the War of the Shadow, all Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow called themselves Chosen--with 3% of the population able to channel, and pretty much all except a few odd balls trained, there would have needed to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Chosen (or else the Aes Sedai would have slaughtered them). Logically, many of these would be very weak.

 

Thus, not only is Egwene at Chosen level, so too is, say, Sorilea. :P

 

But this isn't the War of the Shadow. It's the Third Age. It's pretty clear the argument is about the thirteen Chosen that exist right now. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

Mostly, I'm making a joke.

 

Trying to lighten up this deadly serious debate about whether there are absolute, undefeatable, "beyond-any-doubt" proofs that Egwene is in fact weaker in OP than all female Forsaken? It couldn't work, it's too serious business here

[Mr Ares]

So much that I might have replied has already been addressed. I would like to point out that the "candle next to a bonfire" comparison that was brought up does actually specify that that will be true with training - thus it is clearly a point about more than just strength (even without training, Nynaeve will still be stronger - she just won't be a bonfire next to their candles). It's TGH 4, if you want to look it up (or a full quote was posted by someone many pages ago).

 

I know, let's all say something nice about Egwene: alright I got nothing off the top of my head.

She wears some lovely dresses (probably). Does that count?

 

Let us stick to the thread topic...

It's a bit late for that - we haven't been talking about that for a good long while.

 

 

Can I make the devil's argument? In the War of the Shadow, all Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow called themselves Chosen--with 3% of the population able to channel, and pretty much all except a few odd balls trained, there would have needed to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Chosen (or else the Aes Sedai would have slaughtered them). Logically, many of these would be very weak.

 

Thus, not only is Egwene at Chosen level, so too is, say, Sorilea. :P

 

But this isn't the War of the Shadow. It's the Third Age. It's pretty clear the argument is about the thirteen Chosen that exist right now. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Mostly, I'm making a joke.

A joke? You really think that's appropriate? I'm sorry, young man, but this sort of behaviour is really not acceptable. I shall write to your mother.

[Elan Tedronai]

If nynaeve and egwene get into a power fight i get the feeling it would be close hard one simply because the disparity in strength would be lessened by the battle hardness and skill in weaving of egwene. Damane training in book 2 to blasting seanchan in book 12.

[MasterAblar]

If nynaeve and egwene get into a power fight i get the feeling it would be close hard one simply because the disparity in strength would be lessened by the battle hardness and skill in weaving of egwene. Damane training in book 2 to blasting seanchan in book 12.

 

Yeah, well Nyneave hasn't exactly been laying around having a picnic either.

[Kahsm]

KoD chapter 24 she is asked by an Accepted teacher in a novice class to make a ball of fire and instead she makes a bunch of balls and some rings "dividing her flows fourteen ways". No angreal for certain and even doused with forkroot, though I'll give Nyn benefit of the doubt that it doesn't hurt Egg's splitting.

 

She is an agile channeler. Call it a talent if you want. Rand has it too. Yes strength makes it easier to be agile, but some people are also more agile than they are strong. Either way, Egwene could weave circles around Nyn.

 

As for Egwene not being able to slice Nyn's flows. She's not THAT much weaker. "a step below" I believe the quote was? Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves quite effortlessly.

 

There is no evidence that Egwene can split her weaves more ways than Nynaeve. For one thing, we don't even know what Egwene's limit is when splitting weaves, let alone Nynaeve's. Again, we also don't know just how much stronger Nynaeve is than Egwene. You could be right, that Egwene is both not much weaker than Nynaeve and more "agile", but until you find some actual proof...

 

Edit: However, we do know that there are at least two channelers in-between Egwene and Nynaeve in strength: Moghedien and Semirhage. Do I also need to point out that comparing the strongest female channeler to the strongest male channeler is different than comparing two female channelers of differing strengths?

 

Ok, here we go again.

 

I'll start with fem v male and fem v fem. The argument was made that Nyn's flows are too strong for Eggs to cut. Now, you rightly noted that women are more 'adept' at weaving and so that balances them with men. However, you didn't actually consider the context. No matter how 'balanced' they are overall, a man is still stronger, so Rand's flows are stronger than Lanfear's. Now, Lanfear's weaker flows of Spirit could very well be as sharp as Rand's would be because she's a woman. But this is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that a woman can cut flows stronger than her own.

 

Thus Egwene, who is also an adept women channie can make those 'sharp' flows of spirit and therefore must be able to cut flows of people stronger than her. The gender of the target is irrelevant because I'm not talking about the other's potential of slicing. Just because on balance male/female even out does not mean every individual action would come to a draw.

 

As for Egwene's skill. While she's showing off the two guards come in and are shocked to see what Egwene is doing. If splitting was based on strength, her guards would not be so shocked because they know how strong she is and could figure out how much she can split. Quite clear she did something amazing. It's a thing not even closely repeated by anyone but Rand. And we know splitting even a few ways is difficult for most channelers.

 

Need more evidence? Here are some quotes about Nyn's channeling in general. Try to find anything similar for Egwene.

 

Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed.  Too much specialization.

 

Elayne refrained from mentioning Nynaeve’s complaints about Sumeko, who had certainly grown backbone; Sumeko had criticized several of Nynaeve’s Healing weaves as "clumsy,"

 

“The Wise Ones learned about Healing from me. And from Nynaeve, I suppose,” she allowed after a moment. Oh, Nynaeve would have gone up like an Illuminator’s firework, hear­ing that. But then, Sumeko had outstripped Nynaeve long since.

 

And my favourite...

The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal.

 

I'll help you out with Eggs quotes.

“I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn. child, especially considering your wonderful discoveries.” Egwene inclined her head, accepting the compliment.

 

So you can continue to say there is no ABSOLUTE proof, fine. But the preponderance suggests Egwene is a force to be reckoned with, and Nyn is just strong, and now a good healer.

[Entreri]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Egwene could have greater fighting prowess than Nyaneve, however, Nyaneve would easily overwhelm her outside of TAR.

 

Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, with only Lanfear, Cyndane and Grandael being stronger amongst the Forsaken and Alivia among the none Forsaken (Sharina has barely started to channel).

 

Thus Nynaeve can shield Egwene and easily defeat her (outside of TAR or balefire).

 

Alivia being "considerably/much stronger": Nynaeve said and she would overwhelm her whatever she tried against Alivia. Of course this was probably before she realized Alivia had little or no defensive capablities with saidar.

 

 

100 Weaves for AS testing:

Moraine (New Spring) said they were "extermely complex".

Egwene (Towers of Midnight) said there were "very complex" and she has not learned them all.

Nyaneve (Towers of Midnight) thought nothing of them and has already learned them. Anything Nyaneve sees once, she remembers. She was not impressed in the least at the Weave Egwene created in TAR against eavesdropping (Elayne was amazed at the complexity of it)

 

This hints at their realtive skills at Weaving the OP: Nynaeve >> Egwene > Moraine. Elyane is possibly greater than Moraine.

 

Nynaeve defeated one-on-one, without any aid Moghidien when she was an Accepted, which is an accomplishment almost nobody could match or beat aside from the DR (e.g. Ishamael at the EoTW).

 

Egwene could have 5 weaves of spirit going just slicing jsut about everything Nyn can weave and still have a buttload of potential left for offensive things. What was her max 14? We've seen Nyn do up to "half a dozen" I think? Egwene would dominate Nyn.

 

And for the record, I am an "Egwene lover" and I am not defending the Egwene is forsaken strength position. So lets not generalize too harshly ;). I believe she's Elayne's level just below them.

 

 

The number of Weaves one can use at once depends largely on strength (tSR):

 

Egwene PoV: "Perhaps Nynaeve could come close, if she was angry enough, but Egwene knew she herself could never have done what he just had, split her flows that many way, worked that many things at once. Working two flows at once was far more than twice as hard as working one of the same magnitude, and working three much more than twice again working two. He had to have being weaving a dozen".

 

I am not sure where it says Ewgene can do 14 Weaves at once without aid of an angreal or sa'angrel, even assuming this, given that Nynaeve at the time of tSR at best equaled Moghidien, probably weaker (it was the beginning of the book and many months past since she confronted Moghdien) and now is slightly stronger than Semirhage, given the above quote implies very strongly that Nynave's max >> Egwene's max.

 

Lanfear of course handled Egwene and Avienhda like kittens.

 

Nynaeve would easily defeat Egwene is a face-to-face confrontation (excluding balefire, TAR and excluding OP items).

 

KoD chapter 24 she is asked by an Accepted teacher in a novice class to make a ball of fire and instead she makes a bunch of balls and some rings "dividing her flows fourteen ways". No angreal for certain and even doused with forkroot, though I'll give Nyn benefit of the doubt that it doesn't hurt Egg's splitting.

 

She is an agile channeler. Call it a talent if you want. Rand has it too. Yes strength makes it easier to be agile, but some people are also more agile than they are strong. Either way, Egwene could weave circles around Nyn.

 

As for Egwene not being able to slice Nyn's flows. She's not THAT much weaker. "a step below" I believe the quote was? Lanfear sliced Rand's weaves quite effortlessly.

 

You are right on the 14 splits. Already said above, nobody knows what their limit is in regards to this.

 

But weaving circles around Nyaneve, highly unlikely, given each of their comments (Moraine, Egwene and Nyaneve's) on the benchmark 100 AS weaves and Egwene being much weaker than Nynaneve. Nynaeve is much more skilled.

 

Egwene is below Mohgidien. Mohgidein is below Messana. Messana is below Semirhage. Nynaeve is slightly stronger than Semirhage.

 

Thus Egwene is much weaker than Nyaneve and would get easily annihilated in an OP fight. Luckily for her, she fought a Forsaken in TAR.

[XXX]

Moraine said with training Ny will be like a bonfire to Egwene's candle..so it bears to reason that with training when Ny can access all her strength she will be much more powerful.

 

Sure Egwene might win in a fight though..because she is ruthless and cares about no one.

[Entreri]

Egwene is the most ruthless. Against a vastly superior foe, there is always the equalizer. BALEFIRE.

 

If Moraine had used balefire on Aginor and Balthamael, her kill count would be 3.

[Kahsm]

It's quite obvious this "ruthlessness" argument is based on your reluctance to give any credit to Egwene despite that you agree my position is more likely than your own. You just try in vain to make it a negative.

 

As for candle to bonfire and all that jazz, you still confuse everything with OP strength. Aes Sedai are obsessed with OP strength, their hierarchy is based on it. I never said Egwene is stronger than Nyn, so your evidence of her strength and strength alone is pointless given what we know from RJ himself -- Egwene is not that much lower.

 

On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found. They were the strongest Aes Sedai known before "the new ones". Several Aes Sedai, including Leane and Kiruna, were next in strength. By the old standards they were deemed very strong and capable.

[XXX]

We do not know what one step lower is in terms of OP strength, each step might be a lot bigger than the one below it..according to Moraine the difference is huge.