Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Elan Tedronai]

Personally i think this thread was just an ego massage. You're comparing a 19 year old girl to a 400 year old Legend from another age. How did this get to 26 pages i will never know

[Kahsm]

Personally i think this thread was just an ego massage. You're comparing a 19 year old girl to a 400 year old Legend from another age. How did this get to 26 pages i will never know

 

Well, I believe the argument turned into whether or not he actually is a 400 year old legend. So they're debating the premise, not the conclusion. Which makes it awfully similar to the "Are Rand and LTT one person" thread.

[XXX]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

[Kahsm]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

[Cybertrolloc]

Alright, I'll solve all the mysteries in one fell swoop.

 

Egwene died at the docks of Carhien in FoH. She was replaced by Demandred. Now all of Egwene's mistakes and Dem's boasts make sense, and the timeline fits Dem's quotes excepting tGS prologue...have to figure out what's going on there. The important thing is having a good compound name; I suggest Egwemandred :)

[XXX]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

 

I don't know about the respective skills of Egwene and Ny..but it is highly possible that Egwene will run circles around Ny in combat. Nynaeve does not have the mind to destroy. I think it is because she is a healer at heart.

[David Selig]

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Ireally doubt that. My impression has always been that Nynaeve is just as skillful and able to split the flows. Here's an example:

 

TDR, Ch. 38

 

I saw it, Egwene thought. I . . . think I did. She was not sure she had even been able to make out all the many flows, much less the way Nynaeve had woven them together. What Nynaeve had done in those few seconds had seemed like weaving four carpets at once while blindfolded.

[XXX]

Ny is no fighter at heart....Egwene will demolish anyone she thinks is a threat without a thought and so would Rand.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

The Oaths do allow for exaggeration - does the evidence in the books suggest that Nynaeve really is that much stronger? Or just that one quote? And you are, of course, still not providing evidence to back you up. You'd think after the amount of time I've spent banging on about you being unable to support your points with actual evidence something would have sunk in by now. Can you prove that Egwene has never been stronger than Nynaeve? If not, your argument is utterly without substance.

[sleepinghour]

Can you prove that Egwene has never been stronger than Nynaeve?

This has been stated in almost every book.

 

Sometimes she thinks she's still the Wisdom, Egwene thought grimly, and I'm still the village girl to teach about herbs. She had better realize things are different now. Nynaeve was strong in the Power, stronger than Egwene, but only when she could actually manage to channel; unless angry, Nynaeve could not channel at all.

Egwene watched her stride away before pressing her hands to her stomach. She did not think she would eat tonight or in the morning. Rahvin. And maybe Lanfear, or one of the others. Nynaeve had faced Moghedien and won. But Nynaeve was stronger than she or Aviendha, when she could channel at all.

[Rivirland]

Ares, I haven't been following this discussion at all, but when he says Moiraine describes Egwene vs Nyneave as a candle to a raging bonfire and you say he's not using evidence to back it up, I really think the problem lies in your reading skills and not in what he says.

[randsc]

Once again, the goalposts go sprinting across the field to take up a new position, and the abusive tone returns.

 

Mister A, having been provided with the evidence he demands, still refuses to provide any of his own. As predictable as the sun's rising.

[XXX]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

The Oaths do allow for exaggeration - does the evidence in the books suggest that Nynaeve really is that much stronger? Or just that one quote? And you are, of course, still not providing evidence to back you up. You'd think after the amount of time I've spent banging on about you being unable to support your points with actual evidence something would have sunk in by now. Can you prove that Egwene has never been stronger than Nynaeve? If not, your argument is utterly without substance.

 

Do the quotes posted by sleephour uttered by your heroine Egwene at a time when she has already been forced and at max power satisfy you?

 

I think it is time to give it up..don't you. Egwene is no where close to Moggy and no where close to forsaken strength. Too bad.

[Cybertrolloc]

The Eye of the World quote is obviously talking about potential strength, which isn't being argued.

 

Can you prove that Egwene has never been stronger than Nynaeve?

This has been stated in almost every book.

 

Sometimes she thinks she's still the Wisdom, Egwene thought grimly, and I'm still the village girl to teach about herbs. She had better realize things are different now. Nynaeve was strong in the Power, stronger than Egwene, but only when she could actually manage to channel; unless angry, Nynaeve could not channel at all.

This is after Egwene had been forced under Seanchan captivity. Since it's observed in a few places that woman gain strength smoothly (compared to men) this is pretty strong. So the question is does Egwene's potential surpass Ny's ability at this time?

 

Egwene watched her stride away before pressing her hands to her stomach. She did not think she would eat tonight or in the morning. Rahvin. And maybe Lanfear, or one of the others. Nynaeve had faced Moghedien and won. But Nynaeve was stronger than she or Aviendha, when she could channel at all.

This one isn't so strong.

 

Go back and read Mr Ares' posts. He's making a very specific argument that he (and me for what that's worth) are pretty sure there's going to be no rebuttal in the text. It's certainly plausible that Ny's ability in tSR surpasses Egwene's potential, but don't think it can be proven.

[XXX]

Nice of you to ignore Egween's own POV

 

Sometimes she thinks she's still the Wisdom, Egwene thought grimly, and I'm still the village girl to teach about herbs. She had better realize things are different now. Nynaeve was strong in the Power, stronger than Egwene, but only when she could actually manage to channel; unless angry, Nynaeve could not channel at all.

 

This is when Egwene has been forced and Ny is still not at full strength. The difference between the two is massive wrt to strength which Moriane notes a long time back. Ny even maybe half strength is stronger than Egwene.

[UncleButcher1980]

So Egwene thinks that she (Nynaeve) should realise things are different because, although she is stronger in the Power, it is only when she can actually channel, which she can't unless she is angry. I'm not sure why you think this quote supports your argument?

[XXX]

So Egwene thinks that she (Nynaeve) should realise things are different because, although she is stronger in the Power, it is only when she can actually channel, which she can't unless she is angry. I'm not sure why you think this quote supports your argument?

 

 

The part where Ny is stronger when she can channel...Ny has always being stronger even when she had not reached her full potential. Shortly after this Ny estimates than Moggy is equal to her in strength so that means Moggy is stronger than Egwene..undercutting the basis of Mr A's ridiculous argument that Egwene has forsaken level strength.

[UncleButcher1980]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

[XXX]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

 

 

What are you talking about..Ny actual capability(when she was able to channel) has ALWAYS been greater than Egwene's..even when Egwene was at maximum strength and Ny was not.

[Kahsm]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

 

 

What are you talking about..Ny actual capability(when she was able to channel) has ALWAYS been greater than Egwene's..even when Egwene was at maximum strength and Ny was not.

 

I think they're saying Nyn's strength was effectively zero when she wasn't angry, so her "average" is lower. Which is a ridiculous point in this slightly less ridiculous argument. I agree with XXX47.

 

Having said that, I must go throw up.

[UncleButcher1980]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

 

 

What are you talking about..Ny actual capability(when she was able to channel) has ALWAYS been greater than Egwene's..even when Egwene was at maximum strength and Ny was not.

 

 

 

 

Right, when she was able to channel. What about when she was not? I'm specifically talking about Egwene's POV, which you used to back up your argument. What do you think Egwene meant when she said Nynaeve better realize things are different?.

 

Just to restate it, Egwene thinks Nynaeve better realize things are different because although she is stronger in the power, it is only when she can channel, which is not often. What do you think Egwene is inferring there? It seems to me that she very much thinks of them as equals at least.

 

p.s I'm not particularly taking a side in your argument with Mr Ares, I'm just curious why you think that quote supports you when it seems Egwene thinks the opposite.

[capuga]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

 

 

What are you talking about..Ny actual capability(when she was able to channel) has ALWAYS been greater than Egwene's..even when Egwene was at maximum strength and Ny was not.

 

I think they're saying Nyn's strength was effectively zero when she wasn't angry, so her "average" is lower. Which is a ridiculous point in this slightly less ridiculous argument. I agree with XXX47.

 

Having said that, I must go throw up.

 

I think the argument is thus:

 

1. Nynaeve's potential is much greater than Egwene's. No dispute.

2. Egwene was forced and thus her actual strength raises up to her potential quickly.

3. Nynaeve is not forced so her rise from actual to potential is smooth.

4. It's possible that after forcing, Egwene's top-end actual is higher than Nynaeve's actual, until Nynaeve's growth continues towards her potential.

 

So there is a window in time where maybe Egwene's actual was higher than Nynaeve's actual. This would likely be right after Egwene's capture by the Seanchan. This was when she was forced and her actual would have been close to her potential and when Nynaeve was still just at the beginning of building her strength. Nynaeve would have quickly surpassed her in actual and was always higher than her in potential.

[sleepinghour]

RJ said all three girls experienced forced training, not just Egwene. In ACoS, Siuan actually apologizes to Egwene for doing this. Egwene also experienced even harder forced training during the time she was held captive by the Seanchan, and this is why Elayne is (or was, as late as TPoD) weaker than Egwene. Elayne had only been a novice for a few months when Egwene arrived at the Tower, so she didn't have much of a head start.

 

Since Nynaeve started channeling in her mid-teens (around the age of 16, judging by the "Ravens" prologue), she had already been channeling, albeit infrequently, for eight years in TEotW. At Fal Dara, Moiraine said of Nynaeve:

 

"Once she gains conscious control of what she now does without knowing, she will be as strong as any in Tar Valon. With training, she will shine like a bonfire beside the candles of Elayne and Egwene."

Which means Nynaeve was already at Siuan and Moiraine's level--at least--before even going to the Tower. In TDR, right after Egwene's captivity, Nynaeve is still said to be stronger (in actual strength, not just potential) than Egwene:

 

Nynaeve gripped her braid and opened her mouth as if to protest. When she finally spoke, though, it was to say, "Are you sure, Egwene? We do not even know if you are a Dreamer, and I can channel more strongly than you. I still think I—" Egwene cut her off. "You can channel more strongly if you are angry."

So Egwene was not stronger than Nynaeve at any point.

[XXX]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

 

 

What are you talking about..Ny actual capability(when she was able to channel) has ALWAYS been greater than Egwene's..even when Egwene was at maximum strength and Ny was not.

 

I think they're saying Nyn's strength was effectively zero when she wasn't angry, so her "average" is lower. Which is a ridiculous point in this slightly less ridiculous argument. I agree with XXX47.

 

Having said that, I must go throw up.

 

Thank you..I was wondering what they are talking about. Yes it is a ridiculous argument..Egwene does not have even the strength of the weakest Forsaken.

[XXX]

'When' being the pertinent word. If she can't always channel, she is not always stronger. At least that is what Egwene seems to infer.

 

 

What are you talking about..Ny actual capability(when she was able to channel) has ALWAYS been greater than Egwene's..even when Egwene was at maximum strength and Ny was not.

 

 

 

 

Right, when she was able to channel. What about when she was not? I'm specifically talking about Egwene's POV, which you used to back up your argument. What do you think Egwene meant when she said Nynaeve better realize things are different?.

 

Just to restate it, Egwene thinks Nynaeve better realize things are different because although she is stronger in the power, it is only when she can channel, which is not often. What do you think Egwene is inferring there? It seems to me that she very much thinks of them as equals at least.

 

p.s I'm not particularly taking a side in your argument with Mr Ares, I'm just curious why you think that quote supports you when it seems Egwene thinks the opposite.

 

Not sure what you are arguing about here...all I wanted to show was that Ny has always being stronger than Egwene in the OP. I really don't care if Egwene thinks she is greater than the Dragon himself..she is still weaker in the OP compared to Ny and has always been from the moment she was born.