Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[XXX]

Egwene thinks so!!..in fact ,I think she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower.

[Goldstar]

Not in any sense of the word. The Dragon is the savior. He has more followers, more armies, more power, more strength, and more friends. And more fans.

[UncleButcher1980]

Egwene thinks so!!..in fact ,I think she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower.

 

Your anti-Egwene/Aes Sedai threads are getting tedious now.

[Puny]

Logain is above both of them. =)

[XXX]

It is a simple question...according to the books it certainly looks like the Amyrlin thinks so.

[Guest PiotrekS]

As human beings, they're equal. Concerning the running of Aes Sedai and Tar Valon, Egwene is superior. When we're talking about fighting the Dark One, the Dragon is the leader and the Amyrlin one of his important captains.

[Puny]

Now if Logain was the dragon he would crush her with his heel. Onwards to world domination!

 

This all depends on what perspective you take on. Me personally, as a reader and well.. being me I think Egwene is not equal to the Dragon whatsoever. He stands above her, the Pattern itself is guiding the Dragon reborn, and the Dragon Soul is not equal to the soul of Egwene al´Vere, nor is the Dragon equal to any Amyrlin or Aes Sedai.

Some people in WotLand surely think that the Amyrlin is above him, and that he should kneel and obey her lest the world be doomed. Some feel that Egwene should fall on her knees and worship Rand. Some I´m sure feel they are equal. Some would think such a question blashpemy! The Amyrlin and Dragon are not equal and the Empress, may she live forever, stands above them all.

Some fans think Rand is an arrogant fool not to bow down to Egwene, some thing Egwene is the worst in an Aes Sedai not to see Rand´s splendor. I don´t care much for Egwene (I´m sure I could have liked her, was she not so poorly written in my mind) but even if I did like her I would still say no, they are not equal. The Dragon is above her.

 

Do not turn this into a I hate Egwene thread. Light, I hate her but I hate I hate Egwene threads more!...lol

[Puny]

As human beings, they're equal. Concerning the running of Aes Sedai and Tar Valon, Egwene is superior. When we're talking about fighting the Dark One, the Dragon is the leader and the Amyrlin one of his important captains.

 

Some would argue that Rand is the Light made flesh... lol.

[Kahsm]

As human beings, they're equal. Concerning the running of Aes Sedai and Tar Valon, Egwene is superior. When we're talking about fighting the Dark One, the Dragon is the leader and the Amyrlin one of his important captains.

 

Some would argue that Rand is the Light made flesh... lol.

 

Some would be stupid.

[MasterAblar]

It depends what you mean by equal. Equal in what?

[XXX]

As human beings, they're equal. Concerning the running of Aes Sedai and Tar Valon, Egwene is superior. When we're talking about fighting the Dark One, the Dragon is the leader and the Amyrlin one of his important captains.

 

They are?..Rand is the champion of the light..what is so special about Egwene's soul?

 

Tar Volan is an insignificant part of the whole world...it dies, lives no one cares accept maybe the AS.

Rand is the savior of everything.

[XXX]

It depends what you mean by equal. Equal in what?

 

In importance to the world..

[Manscher]

Considering the survival of mankind relies on Rand and not Egwene, it's kinda hard to argue that Egwene are anywhere near as important as he is.

[mb]

In terms of the One Power, Rand is stronger. Time being trained, Egwene longer.

In terms of age, Rand is older.

Daes Daemar, Rand seems more skilled/experienced.

general knowledge, Rand seems to know more.

overall sanity, Egwene might have an advantage there.

 

 

Where does Egwene think herself or her role equal with Dragon Reborn?

For sure nowhere in first 12 books.

[David Selig]

All people are equal but some are more equal than others, especially the saviours of the world. ;)

[Goldstar]

Considering Rand commands a good portion of Asha'man AND Aes Sedai, even if indirectly through bonding and whatnot. Rand literally is the only Male Aes Sedai, so that adds in his favor, I guess. If Rand dies, the whole world dies. If Egwene dies, a new Amyrlin is named. She's expendable.

 

 

Compare... say... Well, Jesus. Compare Jesus to a president of the United States. Which is more important? Religious beliefs aside, it's obviously Jesus.

[MasterAblar]

It depends what you mean by equal. Equal in what?

 

In importance to the world..

 

Well then no. Rand is more important to the world than Egwene at the moment. That's part of being the DR.

[mb]

some being more equal than others?

To me there is just "equal" and "not equal"; not any kind of in betweens.

[XXX]

They are not even on the same field...Egwene is equal in no field(raw power,influence,importance etc),not even close. Makes her demand that the Dragon "submit" to her authority even more delusional.

[Guest PiotrekS]

some being more equal than others?

To me there is just "equal" and "not equal"; not any kind of in betweens.

 

It's a quote from Orwell's "Animal Farm". In the original, it was a witty way of saying that even though socialism was supposed to bring absolute equality ,what in fact emerged was a new ruling class and new division of the society. But you couldn't say it straight in that system, so it was said: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". Orwell was a genius -he made a point about socialism and in the same time showed that language itself would degenerate in this system of government. (lecture mode off, back to WOT )

[Guest PiotrekS]

As human beings, they're equal. Concerning the running of Aes Sedai and Tar Valon, Egwene is superior. When we're talking about fighting the Dark One, the Dragon is the leader and the Amyrlin one of his important captains.

 

They are?..Rand is the champion of the light..what is so special about Egwene's soul?

 

Tar Volan is an insignificant part of the whole world...it dies, lives no one cares accept maybe the AS.

Rand is the savior of everything.

 

Everybody who says that Rand is more important for the world than Egwene is obviously right. But I think that it derives simply from the fact that his "job" is more important, rather than the fact that he is some kind of superior being. Any special gifts he has are there for the Last Battle.

[AshaShan]

Rand surpasses Egwene in every way thats relevant to judging a person's worth.

 

 

 

His soul is one of the few marked out as Heroes, destined to be sent out to fix the patterns problems life after life. Egwene is just a random girl.

 

He is ta'veren, guided by the pattern for an important purpose. She is one of many threads caught up in his ta'maral'ailen.

 

Rand is prophecised to defeat the Dark One and save the world, also to Break it and herald the beginning of a new Age. Egwene is prophecised to be touched by a hawk.

 

If he dies the world is doomed. If she dies, she can be easily replaced.

 

Rand is the strongest channeler in living memory. Egwene is upper-middle class at best.

 

He can channel so many threads at once that witness' cannot keep track of them all. Egwene can channel fourteen IIRC.

 

In the two decades Rand has lived in the third Age he has accomplished such feats as cleansing the taint from saidin. Egwene's greatest accomplishment in the same time? Turning a chain to cuendillar.

 

Rand has defeated half of the Forsaken, including the strongest of them all. Egwene defeated one of them, and she one of the weakest.

 

Rand commands a unified force of Aiel, Atha'an Miere and most of the wetlander kingdoms. Egwene rules a city state.

 

His armies number in the millions. Hers clock in at 100k.

 

Tens of thousands of channelers answer to him or his subordinates. 600 obey the Amyrlin.

 

Rand is smarter than Egwene - when she tried to manipulate him in LOC he immediately saw right through her. A month has passed since he successfully manipulated her in TOM and she still hasn't caught on.

 

Rand has access to over four centuries worth of experiance and education in an Age that was even more advanced than our own. If you tried to explain to Egwene what indoor plumbing was she'd probably give you a blank stare and call you a woolhead.

 

Rand, with Lews Therin's memories, is fully cognisant of such things as democracy and sexual equality. Egwene, being through no fault of her own, the sole product of a backwards Age thinks that men are inherintly inferior to women. Rand is morally and ethically superior to Egwene.

 

Rand was and is an accomplished general with many other such at his command. Egwene has to rely on others to do her military work.

 

Rand was and is an accomplished governor and politician with many other such at his command. Egwene is a political prodigy with a few other such at her command, but no experiance of ruling.

 

Rand knows exactly how to recreate the original Seals on the Dark One's prison and is attempting to create a better version. Egwene wouldn't know where to start.

 

He is selfless. She is selfish.

 

Darkfriends go blind, trees flower and reality fixes itself when Rand's around. None of that happens in Basel Gill's presence, or Egwene's for that matter (much as she might love it to).

 

 

 

 

So anyway. Long story short. Are Rand and Egwene equals? No, not even frickin close.

[David Selig]

BTW, is this "Bashing Egwene and praising Rand at the same time" week or something? Seems like every thread lately can be summed up in those words. It's really getting tiresome.

[Himiko]

Yeah, it is getting a little tiresome, TBH. I loathe Egwene, and agree with a lot of what XXX47 says, but it does seem like every possible angle of her arrogance in the series is being made into a new thread, when it could have been combined into far fewer (this topic, for example, would not have been out of place as being mentioned in the AS Guidance thread), or even stuck in one of the Egwene threads... I mean, starting the thread with "Egwene certainly thinks so!", whilst it may be true, just gives off the impression that the thread has been started to make a dig at Egwene. Threads already exist for this, and as someone who hates Egwene, likes to think she can come up with balanced reasons, backed up by evidence in the text, and is sick of hearing Egwene-haters labelled as bashers, idiots, sexists (Yeah, I hate her because she's a woman, that's right *rolls eyes*), or whatever, its embarassing to see someone who APPEARS to be going out of their way to make as many threads, making as many one sentence digs at a character as possible.

 

To answer the question: No. If we're getting into semantics, then yes, all people should be equal, and whatnot, but their positions are in no way comparable. Egwene is a political leader, she leads a city state and its army, and an organisation of channelers. She is an official. Rand is the prophecised saviour of the world, quite apart also holding several positions of leadership. from Should she die, the Hall will elect another Amyrlin. Should Rand die, the world is doomed to chaos. The two are totally separate things. Rand will be the one to save the world, or the world will end. Egwene's role is yet unknown, but will presumably, along with the rest of the world's leaders, be as commander of her forces in the last battle, and perhaps as a channeling fighter herself.

 

If you want to know if they see themselves as equals: Its a tricky one- I think Egwene understands that Rand is the saviour of the world, and he will need to be free to fight the Dark One. She probably does think he should obey the Amyrlin Seat- let's be honest, since finding out about the WT, the Amyrlin Seat must have seemed close enough to a god for her- she is the commander of- as far as she knew at the time- the only organised channelers in the world, rulers bow before her, etc. Meanwhile, men are the ones who broke the world, and men are "woolheaded fools". Egwene has shown very little inclination to disagree with the general sexism in the worldview, and since returning from the Aiel, appears to have taken on a very traditionalist viewpoint with regard to many aspects of AS and the Tower. I mean, she wouldn't even put up with Gawyn disagreeing with her when he was telling her her life was in danger because of her own stubborn, bullheaded refusal to consider he might have a point, I don't see her showing "respect" to the DR in the sense of bowing/ suggesting that he has authority greater than or equal to her own. We'll see when they meet on more neutral ground at FoM, though.

 

Rand is even trickier- he's accepted his destiny to fight the DO. He hates some of the things he has done. He is distraught at the deaths of women, perhaps suggesting he sees them as more important than him. But he's quite happy to command his troops and take on leadership roles, so... hmmm, tough one. I'd say both of them respect the other's authority, in the sense that they know they both have levels of authority, but neither believes (or perhaps, likes to think :P) that the other is their equal or superior.

[JKN-SW]

I think part of the answer is in the question itself. Is the Amyrlin equal to the Dragon, not is Egwene equal to Rand? It's not the person itself, but the position. (Even though it may be argued that for Rand/DR it is the same thing.) The position of Amyrlin has been the most important and powerful job for the last 3 millenia in Randland, and leads an organisation of paramount importance and potential power. The Dragon is the natural leader in the fight against the DO, but he is not the natural, or the best, leader of the world in other areas.

So, equal or not? Well I don't see the need of either kneeling to the other, at least.