Who is most likely to turn traitor?

[Ingtar Shinowa]

 

In Mat's case I think it will be a more serious betrayal but other than the portal stones I have no real evidence for it. But it would be cool to see. I'd like to see how all the Mat worshippers take it; whether they blame Sanderson for 'wrecking' Mat or whether they blame Rand and say that he 'deserved' it. Because the way some people worship Mat is just over the top and I would like to see how these people deal with their hero being less than heroic.

 

Ravens are the DO's eyes, and Mat is Prince of Ravens.

[XXX]

Tar Valon gets destroyed by the Seachan and Egwene gets either balefired by Rand or sacrifices herself as redemption for her betrayal...this would make Logain the combined leader of a new organization of channelers.

[buckeyebull64]

ON the point of Mat's portal stones viewings: Don't you think most of those had to with betraying Rand as a channeler before he became the Dragon? I thought that would fit his reaction better.

 

On the point of Egwene's compulsion: Im not sure Hamila had to have compelled her. Its possible, but it seems like Balthamel's style to "play with his food". He/she just seems cocky enough to try making her need him without FORCING her to need him.

[Superhal]

Someone mentioned Nynaeve- I don't know, I think this is unlikely- she cares about Rand, as her friend. She has pleaded with Rand to help Lan, but even when he kept saying "Not yet", even implying he might let Lan sacrifice himself, she stayed with Rand to help him, perhaps for his sake, perhaps for the world's sake. I think she would be devastated, I think she would grieve, but I don't think she would betray Rand to the Dark for Lan's sake.

 

I guess that was me. :)

 

To elaborate, that she's not out of her mind right now is because she got the Warder bond and she knows he's still alive. Once he's dead, I can see her going psycho and trying to give Rand an equal or greater amount of hurt.

[sleepinghour]

To elaborate, that she's not out of her mind right now is because she got the Warder bond and she knows he's still alive. Once he's dead, I can see her going psycho and trying to give Rand an equal or greater amount of hurt.

Are we talking about the same Nynaeve who in tFoH thought that she'd save Rand from Rahvin even if it meant dying herself? IMO, Nynaeve's one of the last people who'd betray Rand. She'd grieve if Lan died, but she wouldn't blame Rand. And hurting him... I can't see that at all.

[Manscher]

Chances of Nynaeve betraying Rand is as high as Min betraying him, which is never. She cares deeply for the other Two Rivers people and she knows the importance of Rand. She, unlike so many other Aes Sedai, has her prioritize straight.

[mb]

From prophecies, likely Bashere. Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 24

 

Depending on how alliance is interpreted, possibly Taim.

[Himiko]

I doubt very much Nynaeve would hurt Rand.

 

She might be angry with Rand, if Lan dies before Rand sends any help to Tarwin's Gap. Hugely angry. It could even destroy their friendship for good. I imagine as time passed, or even straight away, she would be furious with Lan, too, for leaving her alone and doing his crazy suicide-charge thing. Maybe even angry with herself for not getting him enough help (perhaps she might see it this way, anyway, not saying I agree with her).

 

But she knows that Rand is central to saving the world. She knows that without Rand, there is no world anymore. Nynaeve is the person least likely, IMO, to try and harm Rand and risk the world ending because of it. She's stuck up for Rand's decisions to the WT, an organisation she has been a part of since the earliest books. She stayed with Rand rather than go to Lan at any point during his ride to Tarwin's Gap. She's agreed to go to Shayol Ghul with Rand. She'll come through, or try to, if not for Rand then for the world.

 

If she does anything stupid, I can see her Travelling to Tarwin's Gap and balefiring as many Trollocs as she can in rage before going down herself, but even then I think its unlikely.

[Superhal]

Chances of Nynaeve betraying Rand is as high as Min betraying him, which is never.

 

Min's insistence on being near him has weakened his decision making on several occasions, like when Elaida's AS found out Rand was easier to control if they tortured Min. Min also revealed too much about Rand to Cadsuane, which she used against him. Also, there is precedence...I forget which book, but the wondergirls were visited in the WT by one of the forsaken and they revealed everything they knew.

 

I doubt very much Nynaeve would hurt Rand.

 

Well, I'm speaking from the point of view of having read books 1-5 the most, and her personality between the first and 2nd halves of the series are nearly night-and-day different. In the early books, she lashes out at people when she's in a bad mood, she has little or no control of her emotions, she's vengeful, etc. I just don't buy that her new personality will stick, particularly when she got a big push after BS took over the series. I believe since tGS, there were at least 2-3 throwaway scenes where nothing really happened except Nyn went out of her way to heal some sick kids.

 

But it is quite surprising how many people jumped to her defense compared to the relentless bashing of Eg and El.

[FarShainMael]

Matt - evidenced by his comments after travelling through the portal stones.

 

I don't know about Mat betraying the Forces of the Light, but he has certainly been betrayed himself - by Melindhra (TFOH51).

[Manscher]

Min's insistence on being near him has weakened his decision making on several occasions, like when Elaida's AS found out Rand was easier to control if they tortured Min. Min also revealed too much about Rand to Cadsuane, which she used against him. Also, there is precedence...I forget which book, but the wondergirls were visited in the WT by one of the forsaken and they revealed everything they knew.

 

They only Forsaken the wondergirls was visited by in the WT was Lanfear posing as Else and she never asked any question about Rand, Mat or Perrin. I think the scene you are thinking about are the one in Tanchicho where Moghedien compels Elayne and Nynaeve to reveal what they know about Rand. Not really something I consider betrayal, considering they really had no influence on it.

[FarShainMael]

ON the point of Mat's portal stones viewings: Don't you think most of those had to with betraying Rand as a channeler before he became the Dragon? I thought that would fit his reaction better.

 

Yes. Mat says to Rand: "I'd never tell anyone about you. I wouldn't betray you." It's a bit late for that sort of betrayal.

[peregrine]

ON the point of Mat's portal stones viewings: Don't you think most of those had to with betraying Rand as a channeler before he became the Dragon? I thought that would fit his reaction better.

 

Yes. Mat says to Rand: "I'd never tell anyone about you. I wouldn't betray you." It's a bit late for that sort of betrayal.

 

 

Evidence that Mat could be an (unknowing) traitor extends beyond his viewings at the portal stones. Mat wasn't necessarily the strongest character in the first book; remember when they were trapped in the Dancing Cartman in the first book, and Mat suggested surrendering to Howal Gode (and taking it back later? He similarly swore the Seanchan oaths several books later, though he didn't mean them). During their early travels, Mat's will was being weakened by the Shadar Logoth dagger and Ba'alzamon was haunting his dreams, trying to get him to surrender his soul. Conveniently (not for him, but for a possible betrayal), he doesn't remember much of anything that happened to him before the Aes Sedai healed him in Tar Valon.

 

I also find his luck -- and its correspondence with Lanfear's visit in Tar Valon -- circumspect. RJ once said something to the effect that "no matter how much Mat complains about it, he does, in a way, have the Dark One's own luck." Finally, I think back on Min's first viewings of him in TEotW, where she sees a laughing face. To me, the laughing face always suggested Ba'alzamon. And yes, he is the Raven Prince, which suggests the Dark One as well as the Seanchan.

 

I'm not saying he will definitely be a traitor. In fact, I would be surprised. But I wouldn't throw the notion out the window, either.

[FarShainMael]

Is there any way Mat's 'accidental' marriage to Tuon might constitute a betrayal of sorts?

I'm not sure myself, just throwing it out there.

[peregrine]

Is there any way Mat's 'accidental' marriage to Tuon might constitute a betrayal of sorts?

I'm not sure myself, just throwing it out there.

 

 

I think some of the characters will think of it as such (*cough cough* Egwene *cough cough*)

[FarShainMael]

 

It could be that was what led Rand (apparently) to kneel to the CT in Avi's visions..

 

"Look Rand old buddy, she's my wife, you can trust her, go for it..'

[Dagon Thyne]

The Taim/Taimidin/Gaymidin Asha'man. They're still technically on the Light Side, as far as the characters know.

No their not....Logain and the other loyal Asha'man have been telling Rand that Taim is a Dreadlord since TGS....Rand was just too close minded in his approach to the Last Battle to see it...

[FarShainMael]

Matt - evidenced by his comments after travelling through the portal stones.

 

I don't know about Mat betraying the Forces of the Light, but he has certainly been betrayed himself - by Melindhra (TFOH51).

 

I just turned up this, from one of Perrin's excursions into the Wolf Dream:

 

Mat fighting against himself, a dozen different men wearing his face, all dressed in different types of fine clothing, never seeing the shadowy figure behind him with a bloody knife.

[Hybrid]

Egwene's comments about betraying him, again and again.

 

Are you talking about after her Accepted test? If so, it was because she had to repeatedly abandon him in his hour of need for the sake of the test.

 

She's unlikely to do that in the events of the book unless she suddenly has to abandon everything to walk through a white arch during Tarmon Gaidon.

[randsc]

Egwene's comments about betraying him, again and again.

 

Are you talking about after her Accepted test? If so, it was because she had to repeatedly abandon him in his hour of need for the sake of the test.

 

She's unlikely to do that in the events of the book unless she suddenly has to abandon everything to walk through a white arch during Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Well, that's a novel interpretation.

[Elan Tedronai]

Egwene. And that's not trolling, it is a reasonable guess based on, 1. Arthurian legend; and 2. Egwene's comments about betraying him, again and again. Plus the complusion.

 

In reality, I think the chances are 80-20 against, but it would be interesting.

 

If it is Egwene, she will go from being my least favorite character to probably my most favorite.

 

Mine too.. especially if she gets balefired by Rand in response.

 

If you think about it there is no foretelling which says that Egwene will survive the last battle. Logain is destined for great glory and Mat was/is going to be a part of an outliner series so he will survive.

 

 

keeping dreaming amigo. egwene will be around long after tarmon gaidon is done and dusted. Your idol is the one who wont be present in any outrigger novels. Once AMOL is finished, rand's story is over.

 

Logain's glory will be rand's successor. Nothing more nothing less. Ironic that without egwene, logain would have been gentled or worse been killed by aranagar

[Manscher]

Ironic, that without Narishma, Egwene would be under the influence of Aran'gar..

[randsc]

Ironic that without Rand, Egwene would be a damane.

[XXX]

Egwene. And that's not trolling, it is a reasonable guess based on, 1. Arthurian legend; and 2. Egwene's comments about betraying him, again and again. Plus the complusion.

 

In reality, I think the chances are 80-20 against, but it would be interesting.

 

If it is Egwene, she will go from being my least favorite character to probably my most favorite.

 

Mine too.. especially if she gets balefired by Rand in response.

 

If you think about it there is no foretelling which says that Egwene will survive the last battle. Logain is destined for great glory and Mat was/is going to be a part of an outliner series so he will survive.

 

 

keeping dreaming amigo. egwene will be around long after tarmon gaidon is done and dusted. Your idol is the one who wont be present in any outrigger novels. Once AMOL is finished, rand's story is over.

 

Logain's glory will be rand's successor. Nothing more nothing less. Ironic that without egwene, logain would have been gentled or worse been killed by aranagar

 

 

What makes you think Egwene will survive the LB..there is nothing AFAIK no prophecy which says that she will survive.

[Clayden69]

Matt - evidenced by his comments after travelling through the portal stones.

That is often overlooked, I think.

 

I think because everyone loves Mat whereas most people hate Egwene so people would prefer it to be Egwene. Though there is the foreshadowing to suggest Egwene as well. Maybe they will both betray Rand in different ways, at different times.

 

In Egwene's case by simply by not agreeing with Rand and going different ways at the FoM would be a betrayal if looked through at the time she was doing the Accepted test but wouldn't be now (at the time she went through the testing she was still very close to Rand and was a long way from being Amyrlin with all the attendant responsibilities that brings). So in Egwene's case this might be what happens something that no longer feels like a betrayal to Egwene the Mother but when looked at much earlier through the eyes of Egwene the novice would have felt like a betrayal.

 

In Mat's case I think it will be a more serious betrayal but other than the portal stones I have no real evidence for it. But it would be cool to see. I'd like to see how all the Mat worshippers take it; whether they blame Sanderson for 'wrecking' Mat or whether they blame Rand and say that he 'deserved' it. Because the way some people worship Mat is just over the top and I would like to see how these people deal with their hero being less than heroic.

 

 

if Mat betrays Rand then he will be even more of a hero to me