The Fourth Ta'veren

[Manscher]

I'm with Drekka on this one, I suspect Rands ta'veren nature has yanked quite a bit in Egwenes thread to make sure she got into a position where she can help him the most.

[Goldstar]

Well, Egwene DOES have the Old Blood, as we see in EotW. Maybe not as strong as Mat, but she's able to understand parts of the Old Tongue.

[futurehermit]

Gifted people exist in real life, sure. But most people aren't gifted at absolutely everything they turn their hand to. I'm just finishing university, I know loads of people who are gifted in their chosen subject areas. I know people who can play a load of different musical instruments, people who are great at art, etc. But being gifted in one area doesn't mean you're gifted in all others.

 

That's my issue with Egwene. Her being gifted in a certain area, and being naturally talented at that, I can understand. But that isn't the case. She can split her weaves 14 different ways, I believe? When dosed up on forkroot and being beaten every day, after a few months novice/ accepted training that was constantly interrupted to go and fetch Black Ajah for Siuan, or being sent to the kitchens for punishment. She is one of the most talented Dreamwalkers in the world, she can take on a Forsaken in TAR. She is such a great WO apprentice, that the other Wise Ones want her to remain with the Aiel. She is a great politician- and I cannot overstate this, she takes on women who are all great politicians and master manipulators in their own right, and have been for centuries, and after a few weeks of advice from Siuan, suddenly she makes them all look like idiot children. Just by saying how much Elaida sucks, apparently every sister thinks she's amazing, wants her in their Ajah, and takes her advice over stuff that she should, by logic, know far, far less than them.

 

Her being gifted at weaving is not what I take issue with. Her being gifted in TAR is not what I take issue with. Her absorbing the Aiel culture is not what I take issue with. Her skills in politics are not... well, OK, I do take issue with them, because all AS are supposed to be gifted at politics, and have honed their skills over decades/ centuries of use. But anyway, it is less that she is ridiculously gifted at individual things, because yes, some people are, it is that she is ridiculously gifted to a high level in everything she tries her hand at in the series. Let's not forget, she can also make cuendillar (not sure about the spelling there), and is skilled with Earth, which is very unusual for a woman. There's a point at which is stops being a gifted character, and starts being badly written.

 

Just to clarify, I love the series, I love many of the characters, I think RJ and Brandon are great writers, but I do think, unless some explanation as to why this happens comes up in the last book, this may be where the ball was dropped in comparison to the rest of the series.

 

 

There are certain themes that run through her abilities though. It's not like she's an amazing athlete and musician and that kind of thing, for example. She has very strong interpersonal/leadership/charisma/political skills, is very strong in various ways with the One Power, and is very strong in Dreaming/TAR. It's these themes that make her an appealing Wise One apprentice. She's also had some, albeit limited at times, training from various mentors (Moraine, White Tower, Siuan, Seanchan, Wise Ones, etc.) in these areas.

 

She is very strong in the skills necessary for becoming Amyrlin and her character arc was to become Amyrlin. I don't have a problem with that.

[AshaShan]

The series would have been stronger and Egwene would be alot less ridiculous and annoying if she had been made the fourth ta'veren. I don't get why RJ didn't just make her so. He obviously knew that he was going to be using a boatload of deus ex machina on his protagonists or he wouldn't have invented the ta'veren excuse in the first place. So why then did he decide not to use that ready made excuse on the biggest Mary Sue in his series? It was a big mistake IMO.

[David Selig]

I'm with Drekka on this one, I suspect Rands ta'veren nature has yanked quite a bit in Egwenes thread to make sure she got into a position where she can help him the most.

Given that Egwene's done absolutely nothing as Amyrlin to help Rand in any way and her first act as the Amyrlin of the unified Tower was to start a campaign against Rand's plan for the seals, that would mean that the Pattern has been somewhat misguided in this regard. ;)

[sleepinghour]

Just to clarify, I love the series, I love many of the characters, I think RJ and Brandon are great writers, but I do think, unless some explanation as to why this happens comes up in the last book, this may be where the ball was dropped in comparison to the rest of the series.

I would say Egwene strongly comes off as a Mary Sue in recent books, and that ruined her storyline for me, but I honestly don't see any way to fix that after the fact. I've settled for MST3K-ing her chapters when I reread the books.

 

Given that Egwene's done absolutely nothing as Amyrlin to help Rand in any way and her first act as the Amyrlin of the unified Tower was to start a campaign against Rand's plan for the seals, that would mean that the Pattern has been somewhat misguided in this regard. ;)

To be fair, I think getting rid of Mesaana counts as help. She did for the Tower's sake, not Rand's, but that's still one Forsaken less for him to worry about.

[Majsju]

I'm with Drekka on this one, I suspect Rands ta'veren nature has yanked quite a bit in Egwenes thread to make sure she got into a position where she can help him the most.

Given that Egwene's done absolutely nothing as Amyrlin to help Rand in any way and her first act as the Amyrlin of the unified Tower was to start a campaign against Rand's plan for the seals, that would mean that the Pattern has been somewhat misguided in this regard. ;)

 

Assuming that what she is doing is not at all exactly what the Pattern needs her to do...

 

An assumption I would say is quite wrong. What Egwene has done is gathering most of the Lights military forces in one place, something Rand would have had difficulties doing. Something that just might be an extremely good thing. And considering that she felt Rands ta'veren influence quite strongly during their meeting, and gathering these forces was the only really important decision she made at the time, I think it is quite safe to make the assumption that she has done exacly what the Pattern needed her to do.

[David Selig]

I agree that Egwene's reaction to the seals announcement is needed by the Pattern and she was ta'verened to a degree to do it, but my point is all this didn't require someone who's at least nominally a friend of Rand to be an Amyrlin at the time. Most other Aes Sedai would've reacted in a similar way.

[Manscher]

Hard to judge Egwenes importance as the Amyrlin just yet, but I do not think it's without reason that the Wheel choose a girl who grew up with Rand to be a mere coincidence, it is never coincidence when it comes to Ta'verens.

[MHardeman25]

I have to say that I can excuse anything strange that happens in the books b/c of the number of supernatural forces at work in the book. Perhaps the Creator arranged a few beastly people to be born in the two rivers. Perhaps Rands Ta'varen nature drew those he needed to him. Perhaps Egwene has ruled as Amyaril seat in several lives and it's effecting her character in more subtle ways than Rand or Mat. There are plenty of deus ex machina devices built into the story to write off anything strange. I say let it be.

[mb]

Like others posted, Robert Jordan told that no female in this series is taveren.

 

There are 2 pre-series taveren::

-Hawkwing

-Mabriam en Shereed

[Majsju]

I agree that Egwene's reaction to the seals announcement is needed by the Pattern and she was ta'verened to a degree to do it, but my point is all this didn't require someone who's at least nominally a friend of Rand to be an Amyrlin at the time. Most other Aes Sedai would've reacted in a similar way.

 

Possibly. But you can not see this as an isolated incident. The importance of having Egwene as Amyrlin must be viewed in the light of asll her accomplishments since the moment she was raised. For example, it is very unlikely the Tower could have been reunited if someone else had been raised in her place. And imagine the outcome of the seanchan attack if Egwene had not been there.

 

So, maybe a different Amyrlin would have responded to Rand the exact same way. but, that would have been an Amyrlin over a twice broken Tower, while the rebels at best would be sitting somewhere fiddling their thumbs. How easy would it be for such an Amyrlin to convince people to actually come when she calls? And that is assuming Rand would even bother to speak to such an Amyrlin.

[hawninge]

I think there are more than three Ta'veren. I would say first of all either Nynaeve or Elayne is Ta'veren. My main argument for this would be what happens when they are in Tanchico. None of the three boys are in or around Tanchico when these two are here yet it all goes off. I could not see Nynaeve beating Mogheidian? (sorry for spelling), finding the Ter'angreal, and all the other events happening without one of them being Ta'veren.

 

Too much goes on in and around the people from Emond's field and you cannot say that this is all because of Rand, Mat and Perrin, because a lot of the time none of these are about to affect the girls. How is it that Egwene becomes Amyrlin? It has not been said in the books that they are but it could be left as a surprise for all of us readers.

 

The only thing that makes me doubt Egwene being Ta'veren is Nicola, doesn't she have an ability to spot Ta'veren? but then again, she is a liar, and she tries her hand at blackmail so why would we trust her viewing?

[Majsju]

of course women can be ta'veren. None of the major female characters in the books is ta'veren, though. The Wheel doesn't cast ta'veren around indiscriminately. There has to be a specific reason or need. (I tossed in the "major" just to leave you something to argue about.)

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/4/entry-333-its-been-a-while/

 

Can we call this settled once and for all now?

[Ksub]

The wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Egwene doesnt have to have the power to change the pattern around her,she is just an important part of it that the wheel has already willed... and it doesnt help to be friends with 3 taveren who will have need of the person she is destined to be!

[Suttree]

The only thing that makes me doubt Egwene being Ta'veren is Nicola, doesn't she have an ability to spot Ta'veren? but then again, she is a liar, and she tries her hand at blackmail so why would we trust her viewing?

 

We shouldn't trust her, but we should trust Siuan, Logain and RJ. All three are proof that Eggy isn't Ta'veren.

[True Source Creator]

Egg is ta'veren. End of discussion.

[Strykr017]

Gifted people exist in real life, sure. But most people aren't gifted at absolutely everything they turn their hand to. I'm just finishing university, I know loads of people who are gifted in their chosen subject areas. I know people who can play a load of different musical instruments, people who are great at art, etc. But being gifted in one area doesn't mean you're gifted in all others.

 

That's my issue with Egwene. Her being gifted in a certain area, and being naturally talented at that, I can understand. But that isn't the case. She can split her weaves 14 different ways, I believe? When dosed up on forkroot and being beaten every day, after a few months novice/ accepted training that was constantly interrupted to go and fetch Black Ajah for Siuan, or being sent to the kitchens for punishment. She is one of the most talented Dreamwalkers in the world, she can take on a Forsaken in TAR. She is such a great WO apprentice, that the other Wise Ones want her to remain with the Aiel. She is a great politician- and I cannot overstate this, she takes on women who are all great politicians and master manipulators in their own right, and have been for centuries, and after a few weeks of advice from Siuan, suddenly she makes them all look like idiot children. Just by saying how much Elaida sucks, apparently every sister thinks she's amazing, wants her in their Ajah, and takes her advice over stuff that she should, by logic, know far, far less than them.

 

Her being gifted at weaving is not what I take issue with. Her being gifted in TAR is not what I take issue with. Her absorbing the Aiel culture is not what I take issue with. Her skills in politics are not... well, OK, I do take issue with them, because all AS are supposed to be gifted at politics, and have honed their skills over decades/ centuries of use. But anyway, it is less that she is ridiculously gifted at individual things, because yes, some people are, it is that she is ridiculously gifted to a high level in everything she tries her hand at in the series. Let's not forget, she can also make cuendillar (not sure about the spelling there), and is skilled with Earth, which is very unusual for a woman. There's a point at which is stops being a gifted character, and starts being badly written.

 

Just to clarify, I love the series, I love many of the characters, I think RJ and Brandon are great writers, but I do think, unless some explanation as to why this happens comes up in the last book, this may be where the ball was dropped in comparison to the rest of the series.

 

This is my biggest problem. She does everything just...too well. She was an Innkeeper's daughter, yet within a few months she outsmarts people who are literally hundreds of years old. I mean, what's next? We'd better hope Gawyn doesn't show her how to use a sword - she'd probably be a Blademaster in a matter of a few days.

[Ananta]

Egwene is the Creator.

[randsc]

Egg is ta'veren. End of discussion.

 

Yeah, what's Robert Jordan know about the Wheel of Time? Obviously not as much as True Source Creator...

[aaron11]

I may be remembering wrong, but I thought Moiraine said something about people sometimes being Ta'veren temporarily in EoTW/TGH...

 

All ta'veren are temporarily. It is not something you are born with and then keeping till you die.

 

What RJ has said about an eventual 4th ta'veren is that none of the main female characters is ta'veren, and it is extremely unlikely (but not impossible) anyone sworn to the Shadow would ever become ta'veren.

 

I was about to say this, but you beat me to it :P Egwene is undoubtedly one of the main female characters, therefore she is not ta'veren.

 

I feel that Egwene might be more believable if she were ta'veren in a way. The three male leads also accomplish a lot within a relatively short space of time, but at least they have the excuse of being ta'veren- as well as other things: Mat is a great general because he has the memories of many warriors and generals before him. Perrin's wife has been trained from childhood to lead, so he has someone to help him with the day to day running of the Two Rivers, and his massive alliance. Now, OK, to a certain extent, these are all written into the books so that the three ta'veren can get where the need to/ gain as much power as they need to/ perform as much awesome and epic stuff as makes the books exciting :P. But no such thing is written in for Egwene. There is no "Get knowledge quick" scheme written in for her, RJ attempts to give her training, but she becomes so good after such pitifully little training, and others with vastly more knowledge and training are made to look so stupid by comparison, that I find it grating to read. Her being ta'veren might at least explain why she outsmarts both Halls with only a few weeks/ months of advice from Siuan, despite them all having been master manipulators for centuries before she was born, but we know she isn't.

 

I don't know, I just feel like RJ knew that he wanted Egwene to end up as Amyrlin, with Elayne as queen, Nynaeve as the uber- Healer, and presumably Aviendha as a Wise One, but whilst the other female characters had some background training/ knowledge in their eventual fields- Elayne has been trained in politics since birth, Nynaeve was a Wisdom, and has always had a passion for healing, etc- Egwene shows no signs of being any kind of political mastermind, IMO. She's Nynaeve's apprentice, but Nynaeve is hardly a master of subtle politics :P She spends the first few books as a novice/ accepted, and spends most of TDR sulking and snapping because Nynaeve has taken charge and actually seems competent at it- hell, she even admits to herself in her POV. And, perhaps because RJ doesn't want all of his main characters running around as ta'veren, I don't know, Egwene doesn't have that way of getting herself to the position. So he tried to give her training, but it seems insufficient for the skills that she gains. I think character-wise, she's fine (though I loathe her :P), but power/ knowledge/ ability- wise, she is one of the worst written main characters of the series.

 

You give Egwene way too much credit for gaining the upper hand with the hall. Her getting the hall to declare war on the Amyrlin was not her scheme but Siuan's. Most of the politicking done by Egwene is done with Siuan orchestrating. Egwene is coached word for word in what she should say with all of her early encounters. She is not just trained by Siuan, but is her puppet except Siuan isn't trying to manipulate Egwene.

[Himiko]

And once she is raised Amyrlin by the Tower? What about her outsmarting the Hall then? When it takes them all so long to realise that the Dragon Reborn is the ruler of a nation. That is a lot of clever, manipulative women being awfully dumb at the exact same time. Even Siuan admits, long before this, that she's no longer the one pulling the strings out of the two of them.

[True Source Creator]

Egg is ta'veren. End of discussion.

 

Yeah, what's Robert Jordan know about the Wheel of Time? Obviously not as much as True Source Creator...

I. am. Robert. Jordan.

[Vambram]

Egg is ta'veren. End of discussion.

 

Yeah, what's Robert Jordan know about the Wheel of Time? Obviously not as much as True Source Creator...

I. am. Robert. Jordan.

 

[True Source Creator]

Sheesh, rude much. Those cocky rolling eyes add nothing to conversation or debate.

 

 

Obviously I don't really believe Egwene is ta'veren as Jordan made only the main trio ta'veren. More or less, I aim at a discussion of why she isn't ta'veren, and why she's able to do everything she is. I believe the reason so many people from the Two Rivers are "special" or "gifted" is because Rand is uber-ta'veren and controls their threads somehow. That may also interfere with other characters beyond the Two Rivers whom he meets, such as Elayne, Min, and Avienda, especially as he has sex with all of them and bonds them.