Elayne

[Toral alCaar]

Does anyone else think that it's kind of messed up that Elayne was so quick to agree that Rand was wrong when Egwene contacted her about his desire to break the seals.

[Kahsm]

Does anyone else think that it's kind of messed up that Elayne was so quick to agree that Rand was wrong when Egwene contacted her about his desire to break the seals.

 

No, because anyone with half a brain would think he's nuts. It's only been drilled into the minds of people for a few thousand years that LTT and the hundred companions risked themselves and and the world in order to seal the DO away using these seals as the focal points. The fact that the heartstone is crumbling even suggests to me the DO wants them to break.

 

Not saying Rand is wrong, i'm sure he's right. But no one should instantly follow him unless they've been in his ta'veren pull for a long time like Nynaeve and Cadsuane and their ilk.

[David Selig]

We don't really know how quick it was - at first Elayne was pretty lukewarm to the idea, she said that the seals are crumbling anyway, and only three were left. But offscreen she apparently changed her mind is firmly on Egwene's side.

[anotherfingolfin]

Not saying Rand is wrong, i'm sure he's right. But no one should instantly follow him unless they've been in his ta'veren pull for a long time like Nynaeve and Cadsuane and their ilk.

 

No one SHOULD follow him? That's a little extreme, don't you think? So Cads/Nyn only follow him becaue of his ta'veren pushing them to? Or am I just misunderstanding you?

 

As to the original question- Yeah, totally agree with David Selig, we don't have enough information on how easily she changed her mind, so you should reserve judgement.

[Feral]

Everything Elayne does is messed up...

[True Source Creator]

^

I've seen (at least) three characters getting a lot of bad rep around here: Elayne, Egwene, and Faile. Only one of those three deserves it, and that would be Faile, who, while not an awful character, is just so damn bland and tipsy.

[Feral]

I like Faile. Wouldn't call her bland and...tipsy? The only thing that means to me is slightly drunk, and she's certainly not that lol

[True Source Creator]

I mean emotionally tipsy. Like a rollercoaster. She's always just been there to me, not really of any importance. If she had killed Galina, Sevaana, or Therava, I would have liked her more. At least she killed Masema, though. He was annoying.

[Himiko]

^

I've seen (at least) three characters getting a lot of bad rep around here: Elayne, Egwene, and Faile. Only one of those three deserves it, and that would be Faile, who, while not an awful character, is just so damn bland and tipsy.

 

Nah, Faile's awesome. Hell, she's competent at managing Perrin's forces, she kills Masema, she rides in with an army to save the day at Emond's Field. Sure, she's a little jealous, but then, one of the most beautiful women in the world is openly trying to steal her husband :P She kicks ten times the amount of arse of Elayne and Egwene together.

 

OK, I'm biased because I love Faile, loathe Egwene and am indifferent to Elayne. But yes, these three seem to provoke a particularly high level of dislike. Perrin's another one who gets a fair amount of dislike, with his "I must save Faile!" storyline.

[True Source Creator]

I've been neutral on Egwene for a while. In the earlier books, I kind of liked her, but I stopped caring later. Now I find her chapters of her in the White Tower trying to unseat Elaida rather intriguing.

 

I've never disliked Elayne, except for her underdeveloped love story with Rand. Her challenge for the throne of Andor was rather interesting.

 

Perrin has been my least favorite of the original trio, and most of that oes have to do with the rather redudant saving Faile storyline that spanned like three or four books before it finally ended.

[Randommer]

Does anyone else think that it's kind of messed up that Elayne was so quick to agree that Rand was wrong when Egwene contacted her about his desire to break the seals.

 

Definitely. I mean it really is gonna be quite a statement to turn up at the FoM with the armies of Andor and Cairhien, both countries that she wouldn't rule but for Rand, without even having made any effort to discuss the issue with him, and, you know, pregnant with his children that she hasn't made any effort to tell him about. I mean how hard is a simple, "Nynaeve, tell Rand to Caemlyn in disguise again. There's some stuff we need to talk about." Pfeh. And I actaully don't dislike Elayne usually.

[Kal11]

Does anyone else think that it's kind of messed up that Elayne was so quick to agree that Rand was wrong when Egwene contacted her about his desire to break the seals.

 

No, because anyone with half a brain would think he's nuts. It's only been drilled into the minds of people for a few thousand years that LTT and the hundred companions risked themselves and and the world in order to seal the DO away using these seals as the focal points. The fact that the heartstone is crumbling even suggests to me the DO wants them to break.

 

Not saying Rand is wrong, i'm sure he's right. But no one should instantly follow him unless they've been in his ta'veren pull for a long time like Nynaeve and Cadsuane and their ilk.

 

Perrin immediately saw the sense in Rand's plan and he has been far from his pull for a long time, and is strongly Ta'veren himself. It is all a matter of perspective and knowledge.

[Muad Cheade]

We know by the Borderlanders prophecy that breaking the seals is right but only a select few have heard it. When Rand told Egwene he was going to break the seals, he did not give an explanation why or a plan to implement after the Bore was opened. You can see why most people would be against Rand right now.

[Hopefire]

Egwene is one of the best characters in the story, and the single least likable person of all of the characters in the Wheel of Time. When writing a character like Egwene, most authors fall into self-parody fairly frequently. Cersei in A Song of Ice and Fire is a similarly written character, and by A Feast For Crows Cersei is about as crazy as Rand ever was; Egwene has avoided the pitfalls of being written the way she's written, and the result is one of the best characters in the series.

 

Faile comes across as much more likable to me. In every way but one, she's a fun character. She's brave, she's compassionate, she can take command at need, she can follow at need, she's intelligent, she's perceptive, she takes intelligent risks, she's determined, and more. However, while Egwene gets the flaw of a severe lack of introspection, Faile gets really jealous whenever another woman is around Perrin. Which is most of the time. And since we see Faile mostly from Perrin's point of view, Faile's flaw is on display the majority of the time she's on the page. It's not a flaw that adds depth or makes her interesting. It's just annoying, and it obscures Faile's many good and interesting qualities.

 

Elayne is an odd duck. She suffers from more flaws as I see them than any other major character in the series. She makes Rand look cautious by comparison. She has some of Egwene's inability to see the larger picture - threatening to execute Perrin was probably the single most ridiculous thing that any of the good guys have done to date. She's proud and ungrateful - the best example of that is Elayne being angry with the idea of Rand giving Camelyn and Cairhien to her, after he'd conquered them. But, she acts from good intentions, she backs down with relative grace when she's shown that she's wrong, she can be rather more shrewd than most of the main characters, and she's one of the more open minded characters about the changing world. In a lot of ways, she seems almost underdeveloped. Perhaps more time spent in the bath would improve her as a character.

 

At the end of the day, I love Egwene as a character, and despise her as a person. I love Faile as a person, and I'm indifferent to her as a character. Elayne is too much of a mixed bag for me to come down to one side or another as a person, and I think that as a character she's above average for the series - real people generally don't make sense either.

[David Selig]

Does anyone else think that it's kind of messed up that Elayne was so quick to agree that Rand was wrong when Egwene contacted her about his desire to break the seals.

 

No, because anyone with half a brain would think he's nuts. It's only been drilled into the minds of people for a few thousand years that LTT and the hundred companions risked themselves and and the world in order to seal the DO away using these seals as the focal points. The fact that the heartstone is crumbling even suggests to me the DO wants them to break.

 

Not saying Rand is wrong, i'm sure he's right. But no one should instantly follow him unless they've been in his ta'veren pull for a long time like Nynaeve and Cadsuane and their ilk.

 

Perrin immediately saw the sense in Rand's plan and he has been far from his pull for a long time, and is strongly Ta'veren himself. It is all a matter of perspective and knowledge.

Note the "anyone with half a brain" part. This disqualifies Perrin.

[Himiko]

Egwene is one of the best characters in the story, and the single least likable person of all of the characters in the Wheel of Time. When writing a character like Egwene, most authors fall into self-parody fairly frequently. Cersei in A Song of Ice and Fire is a similarly written character, and by A Feast For Crows Cersei is about as crazy as Rand ever was; Egwene has avoided the pitfalls of being written the way she's written, and the result is one of the best characters in the series.

 

Faile comes across as much more likable to me. In every way but one, she's a fun character. She's brave, she's compassionate, she can take command at need, she can follow at need, she's intelligent, she's perceptive, she takes intelligent risks, she's determined, and more. However, while Egwene gets the flaw of a severe lack of introspection, Faile gets really jealous whenever another woman is around Perrin. Which is most of the time. And since we see Faile mostly from Perrin's point of view, Faile's flaw is on display the majority of the time she's on the page. It's not a flaw that adds depth or makes her interesting. It's just annoying, and it obscures Faile's many good and interesting qualities.

 

Elayne is an odd duck. She suffers from more flaws as I see them than any other major character in the series. She makes Rand look cautious by comparison. She has some of Egwene's inability to see the larger picture - threatening to execute Perrin was probably the single most ridiculous thing that any of the good guys have done to date. She's proud and ungrateful - the best example of that is Elayne being angry with the idea of Rand giving Camelyn and Cairhien to her, after he'd conquered them. But, she acts from good intentions, she backs down with relative grace when she's shown that she's wrong, she can be rather more shrewd than most of the main characters, and she's one of the more open minded characters about the changing world. In a lot of ways, she seems almost underdeveloped. Perhaps more time spent in the bath would improve her as a character.

 

At the end of the day, I love Egwene as a character, and despise her as a person. I love Faile as a person, and I'm indifferent to her as a character. Elayne is too much of a mixed bag for me to come down to one side or another as a person, and I think that as a character she's above average for the series - real people generally don't make sense either.

 

You make some interesting points here about the three... I wouldn't say Egwene is brilliantly written in some ways, purely because she is written to be good at everything she tries (with the one, briefly mentioned, exception of healing), with the minimum of training. Seriously, she's a hugely skilled weaver after less than a year of tower training before she is raised Amyrlin. She's one of the most talented dreamers in the series, and, apparently, totally immersed in Aiel culture and full of honour after training with them for a few months. She can make cuendillar. She's a brilliant politician after a few weeks with Siuan- so good, in fact, that she makes every other AS who ever opposes her in any way, look like an idiot by comparison. And, no matter how she treats Nynaeve, Elayne and Gawyn, they still all seem to think the sun shines out of her arse. I find it annoying and unrealistic. But if we look purely at her personality, then yes, I agree, she's well written- the mere fact that she's so vocally disliked gives testament to that.

 

Faile's jealousy bothers me less than it seems to do a lot of other people. I think because mostly (at least in the later few books) its directed at Berelain, who has given her ample cause for concern.

 

Back to the topic of the thread, Elayne- yeah, I pretty much agree on everything you've said above. I think in the earlier books she had a lot more "shining moments"- in many ways she's quite practical. Lately, with threatening to execute Perrin, not telling Rand about his children, etc. she's becoming more imperious and less likeable, more the politician. Hopefully she'll get to do something cool and not just take stupid risks and get injured in the last book XD

 

As for her reaction to Rand's plan- as people have said, we don't know how sudden her change of heart was. She does seem to consider it at first, as does Nynaeve. Not to the extent of Perrin, who determines his support early on. But certainly she considers it- its only later, when she meets with Perrin that she declares her opposition. In the meantime, perhaps panic over what would happen when the Bore is unsealed overrode what she thought earlier. Perhaps she has done research into what might happen. We know that Egwene has been trying to persuade rulers to join her against Rand- with Elayne being the Queen of 2 nations AND an AS, Egwene might well have been meeting with her in TAR and putting extra pressure on her to come around to her POV? Who knows. She doesn't discount it out of hand, which suggests that if a compelling argument is made at the FoM in favour of breaking the seals, she might well come round to it.

[Kahsm]

Does anyone else think that it's kind of messed up that Elayne was so quick to agree that Rand was wrong when Egwene contacted her about his desire to break the seals.

 

No, because anyone with half a brain would think he's nuts. It's only been drilled into the minds of people for a few thousand years that LTT and the hundred companions risked themselves and and the world in order to seal the DO away using these seals as the focal points. The fact that the heartstone is crumbling even suggests to me the DO wants them to break.

 

Not saying Rand is wrong, i'm sure he's right. But no one should instantly follow him unless they've been in his ta'veren pull for a long time like Nynaeve and Cadsuane and their ilk.

 

Perrin immediately saw the sense in Rand's plan and he has been far from his pull for a long time, and is strongly Ta'veren himself. It is all a matter of perspective and knowledge.

Note the "anyone with half a brain" part. This disqualifies Perrin.

 

lol, yes. My statement still stands.

 

And I'm all for an Elayne bashing thread, however I think Elayne, being one of our few major female characters who was actually born into a strong role opitimizes the commonly noted problem of male/female power balance. RJ tries to make her a strong and honourable leader. But she comes off silly and foolishly ideological instead of Ned Stark-ish rock solid sense of duty and honour. "You can't give it to me I have to earn it", should come across as a noble thing, but she just does not pull it off.

 

I suppose she should have accepted Queen Regent title or something and say she'd agree to a contest for the crown after the war. It's a lot of small things that irk me about Elayne, and the fact she seems to rarely think about things first or even during. Her PoVs are filled with certainties based on ideological notions of nobility and ownership and aristocracy: "This is how a queen should act", "this is how this must go down", yadda yadda. At least that's my impression of her inner workings.

 

Good thing she's supposedly hot or I don't see what Rand would see in her.

[Toral alCaar]

I never mention for this to be an Elayne bashing thread. But I do agree with your points about her character.

[Manscher]

I could actually see Elayne renounce her title as Aes Sedai, perhaps at FoM. Considering Her and other Andoreans strong sense of independence and refusal to have foreigners in control, it somewhat surprises me that she haven't yet realized that her being queen and Aes Sedai basically means that Egwene is the ruler of both Andor and Cairhien. I suspect Egwene might abuse her title as Amyrlin against her friend and demand that she, Andor and Cairhien to do as she says. I mean it's not like Egwene have shown any loyalties towards any of her friends for many books by now, she's even more abusive when it comes to that then Rand have ever been.

[USURP888]

I could actually see Elayne renounce her title as Aes Sedai, perhaps at FoM. Considering Her and other Andoreans strong sense of independence and refusal to have foreigners in control, it somewhat surprises me that she haven't yet realized that her being queen and Aes Sedai basically means that Egwene is the ruler of both Andor and Cairhien. I suspect Egwene might abuse her title as Amyrlin against her friend and demand that she, Andor and Cairhien to do as she says. I mean it's not like Egwene have shown any loyalties towards any of her friends for many books by now, she's even more abusive when it comes to that then Rand have ever been.

 

 

I certainly hope not, perhaps this is the scenario that would cause Egwene to realize her flaws and grow. The AS and the whole of Randland needs a strong and able Amyrlin and nobody is better than Egwene at the moment. Hopefully she and Elayne can have an understanding regarding the influence the WT has on Andor and Cairhien.

[Manscher]

You never know with Egwene, she started out with a strong sense of loyalty towards her friends, just like rest of the Two Rivers people, but she's abandoned that long ago. Relistening to The Fires of Heaven right now and here she wanted the rebel sisters to support Rand, to help him. Now she wants everybody to bow and scrape before the Amyrlin Seat and do as she and the White Tower considers right.

 

Anyhow, there's also the matter of Elayne complaining several times throughout the series that she constantly have to abandon Rand to fight for himself, not being able to ever help him. Perhaps she might actually redeem herself a bit and show something else than just mere lust for him for once.

[Kahsm]

You never know with Egwene, she started out with a strong sense of loyalty towards her friends, just like rest of the Two Rivers people, but she's abandoned that long ago. Relistening to The Fires of Heaven right now and here she wanted the rebel sisters to support Rand, to help him. Now she wants everybody to bow and scrape before the Amyrlin Seat and do as she and the White Tower considers right.

 

Anyhow, there's also the matter of Elayne complaining several times throughout the series that she constantly have to abandon Rand to fight for himself, not being able to ever help him. Perhaps she might actually redeem herself a bit and show something else than just mere lust for him for once.

 

Must ignore Egwene slander... resist... defending her in Elayne's thread...

 

I will say this, Elayne is much more self centred than Egwene is. I wish she had beheaded Perrin. Would have removed some dull storyline, and we'd get to see how loyal Egwene really was when it comes to her "friends". I'd also like to see what Rand would do.

[Manscher]

I see people keep referring to beheading Perrin, which I admit I was annoyed by at the first read through. But after I've gone through it a couple of times, it's quite obvious she never had any intentions of doing it, she even thought that she wouldn't do it, it was merely used to try and unsettle them in their discussion on how to sort out the whole deal. She obviously couldn't just hand over a huge chunk of Andor to a "commoner" without any real reason, so they had to come up with some excuse for it.

[Kahsm]

I see people keep referring to beheading Perrin, which I admit I was annoyed by at the first read through. But after I've gone through it a couple of times, it's quite obvious she never had any intentions of doing it, she even thought that she wouldn't do it, it was merely used to try and unsettle them in their discussion on how to sort out the whole deal. She obviously couldn't just hand over a huge chunk of Andor to a "commoner" without any real reason, so they had to come up with some excuse for it.

 

I'd agree with that if Perrin ever actually claimed it as a separate nation. She assumed, then threatened (if only to unsettle). It was foolish, and even more foolish given he's BFFs with Rand. Even if he did claim to be independent you'd think she'd talk to rand about how Perrin is messing with the Dragon's peace.

[David Selig]

What Dragon's peace?

 

Perrin carried Manetheren's banner for months, that's a pretty good sign he was proclaiming independence and wanting to take over more than just Two Rivers (Manetheren used to include half of modern day Andor in its territory). And in the end, Elayne got a pretty good deal in the end from the meeting with Perrin, so the implied threat wasn't a problem.