A way to root out Black Ajah too easy?

[MHardeman25]

I was thinking about how Aes Sedai swear on the oath rod to never say one word that is not truth, and how black ajah have forsaken that oath and can lie, and I started to draw some parallels between that and the Liar's paradox.

 

If you have 1 sister who cannot lie, and 1 who can, could you not pose the liar's paradox question to determine who is black ajah? Something like...

 

"Lets pretend one of you is black ajah, if you were the other Aes Sedai, which one of you would you say is the black ajah?"

 

Then I realized that perhaps because the black ajah sister doesn't have to lie, that might just ruin it. I remember seeing variations on that question involving multiple people all speaking different questions and you have to determine who is telling the truth, surely we can come up with a suitable question that would force the black sister to reveal herself.

[ed2funy]

Psst....language. >_>

[Apple13]

I think it was mentioned that Black Ajah sisters try to tell the truth as much as possible, so no one would figure them out. That's why it took the Oath Rod to capture the first few.

[Thorgan]

This only works if the liar always lies and never tells the truth.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Just ask "Are you black Ajah?"

 

Then try to force them to say "yes"

 

Those who aren't black Ajah will choke like crazy as the first oath will take effect.

 

Those who are will just attack.

[navahgar]

Alright, so everyone seems focused on the first oath as a means of rooting out Black Ajah. I'm thinking, why not use something else? At various times in the series the good guys have captured and controlled Moghedien, Semirhage, and now Mesaana. I don't think Egwene was there for the Semirhage part, but she was clearly integrally involved with Moghedien. Also, she's directly faced Mesaana, and so knows about her mannerisms and attitude. Why not use the oath rod to remove her own oaths, change her appearance to look like Mesaana, take along the fluted rod sa'angreal, then appear to Aes Sedai one at a time pretending to be Mesaana and requiring obedience. Those who are not Black Ajah would not know what's going on, be scared, and probably fight back. Being much more powerful than them due to the sa'angreal, and unrestricted in action due to not being constrained by the oaths, she can quickly and relatively harmlessly subdue them. Then explain and recruit them. Those who are Black Ajah might resist initially, but if the impersonation is good enough (which based on the scenes we've seen just requires appearing ethereal, powerful, and arrogant enough, and maybe lie or praise the Great Lord a little) they will bow before the Chosen and praise the Great Lord. Sorted.

[Durinax]

the easiest way would be to develope a way to track the movements of various sisters (much like a guard rotation type deal) that way if they are doing something odd it can be investigated further.

[sandoz12]

I think the easiest way is simply to have a yearly screening of the kind the Black Ajah hunters used. For sisters outside the tower there would be have to be a requirement to return at least once a year (this would no longer be arduous with travelling)or be declared black.

[Stitch]

Not counting Rand looking at them I take it? XD

 

I assume that the blacksisters use an oathrod to impose some particular oath on themselves (or eachother) not just to release themselves from the three oaths, otherwise they would lose the ageless look and be easily identifiable... its also backed up given the pain we have seen them in after releasing themselves....

 

Personally I dont think the three oaths themselves are particularly useful in identifying black ajah.... unless the woman is either complacent or an idiot.

[sandoz12]

Not counting Rand looking at them I take it? XD

 

I assume that the blacksisters use an oathrod to impose some particular oath on themselves (or eachother) not just to release themselves from the three oaths, otherwise they would lose the ageless look and be easily identifiable... its also backed up given the pain we have seen them in after releasing themselves....

 

Personally I dont think the three oaths themselves are particularly useful in identifying black ajah.... unless the woman is either complacent or an idiot.

Well we know they take an oath as that is mentioned numerous times and in particular is the reason Verin had to poison herself. As to the three oaths don't particularly work but if you do as the Black Ajah hunters did and make them say they are not black ajah while holding the oath rod this does work.

 

As to Rand, I don't think he can tell who is black by looking alone. I think he was tipped off by Verin's letter.

[Stitch]

It didnt necessarily have to be from an OATH ROD though did it? I assume there are dark friend oaths that have nothing to do with the oath rod which could be just as binding.

 

Rand was able to see through several dark friends (eg at the stone of tear) with a glance... though thats cheating cause he is using powers LTT supposedly never had (otherwise the AoL would have been a lot easier for them)

[sandoz12]

It didnt necessarily have to be from an OATH ROD though did it? I assume there are dark friend oaths that have nothing to do with the oath rod which could be just as binding.

True.

Rand was able to see through several dark friends (eg at the stone of tear) with a glance... though thats cheating cause he is using powers LTT supposedly never had (otherwise the AoL would have been a lot easier for them)

I don't think he could tell just at a glance. It was only when Wieramon couldn't make eye contact that he knew. I believe he had been tipped off by Verin and then by staring at them he learnt what anyone good at reading body language could. He kind of bluffed it in my eyes.

[Manscher]

Don't think Rand is able to read a Darkfriend, but rather that Darkfriends aren't able to look into Rands eye due to the "Light". And this Light seems to maginify when he channels, as seen in Maradon when he basically drives 2 darkfriend insane by channeling hundreds of paces away from them.

[Dakota]

It didnt necessarily have to be from an OATH ROD though did it? I assume there are dark friend oaths that have nothing to do with the oath rod which could be just as binding.

 

I'm pretty sure it does have to be on the oath rod.

 

When the Black Ajah hunters are interrogating what's her name on the chair, they comment about how she was holding out on admitting anything longer than any of them would think someone could hold out, to the point they start wondering if she's made a mistake. At that point, she takes the oath rod and forswears all her oaths, then re-swears the three. Only once she's sworn off her old oaths does she confess.

[Superhal]

We know one of the BA's oaths is "not to betray the DO until their last hour." Therefore, an easy question would be:

 

"I'd like to stab the DO in the nuts with my dagger. Where could I find him?"

 

If the AS doesn't instantly respond "Shayol Ghul," then she's black.

 

Or, to get a little trickier:

 

Get 4 prison cells. Have the suspected BA bring a known DF prisoner into the cells, but don't tell her which cell to use. Let her pick the cell without you knowing. Then, say, "Where is the DF?"

[Sharaman]

I'm pretty sure it does have to be on the oath rod.

Verin's action and Galina's confirms that it is on the oath Rod and als

o that another oath rod (same model and different serial no) will work.

We know one of the BA's oaths is "not to betray the DO until their last hour." Therefore, an easy question would be:

 

"I'd like to stab the DO in the nuts with my dagger. Where could I find him?"

 

If the AS doesn't instantly respond "Shayol Ghul," then she's black.

 

Or, to get a little trickier:

 

Get 4 prison cells. Have the suspected BA bring a known DF prisoner into the cells, but don't tell her which cell to use. Let her pick the cell without you knowing. Then, say, "Where is the DF?"

 

The first test would depend on whether the BA even considered it betrayal to mention that the GLoD was generally accessible at SG (since this is common knowledge available in prayers said by every kid). Also the BA might die laughing at the thought of some random chap stabbing GLoD in his incorporeal family jewels. Maybe she'd even consider it appropriate to give explicit travel directions ("Turn right at Tarwin's Gap and walk a thousand league. Beware the Worms"), and drop a quiet word in Shaidar's shell-like ears, and then let GLoD deal with him.

 

So I don't think that would work.

 

I don't get the point of the second test at all -as Verin explicitly mentioned, there's no injunction against betraying or murdering DFs or even plotting against the Chosen. Only the GLoD is exempt from chicanery and double dealing.

[Superhal]

Maybe she'd even consider it appropriate to give explicit travel directions ("Turn right at Tarwin's Gap and walk a thousand league. Beware the Worms"), and drop a quiet word in Shaidar's shell-like ears, and then let GLoD deal with him.

 

 

"It's a LEFT turn at Tarwin's Gap! Caughtya!"

[OptimusPrime]

Make them both wear black dresses, and then tell them to say they are wearing a white dress. Whoever doesnt choke when trying to say it is Black. No need to mention the Dark One, no need for known Darkfriends to be present, straightforward and simple.

[Superhal]

Make them both wear black dresses, and then tell them to say they are wearing a white dress. Whoever doesnt choke when trying to say it is Black. No need to mention the Dark One, no need for known Darkfriends to be present, straightforward and simple.

 

What if the BA's practiced the choking too?

[OptimusPrime]

Make them both wear black dresses, and then tell them to say they are wearing a white dress. Whoever doesnt choke when trying to say it is Black. No need to mention the Dark One, no need for known Darkfriends to be present, straightforward and simple.

 

What if the BA's practiced the choking too?

 

LOL! I wonder how many of them can go blue in the face!

[Superhal]

Make them both wear black dresses, and then tell them to say they are wearing a white dress. Whoever doesnt choke when trying to say it is Black. No need to mention the Dark One, no need for known Darkfriends to be present, straightforward and simple.

 

What if the BA's practiced the choking too?

 

LOL! I wonder how many of them can go blue in the face!

 

You know you don't literally turn blue, right? Pale as a sheet? Dark as thunderclouds?

 

But I would imagine pantomiming choking, putting a hand to your throat, and squeezing your jugulars just enough to cause a facial color change.

[True Source Creator]

Easiest way to root out Black Ajah?

 

 

...read Verin's book.

 

[mb]

Verin's book did not reveal all of them; only most.

 

Doing a series of questions 1 at a time (like Egwene seemed to do with Sheriam) might be one way.

Having the Black foreswear all oaths then re-swear the regular oaths (like the ones hunting for blacks did) is a for-sure way.

[Superhal]

Having the Black foreswear all oaths then re-swear the regular oaths (like the ones hunting for blacks did) is a for-sure way.

 

Didn't work on Mesaana. There were three possibilities that were raised in ToM how Mesaana could have beaten the Oath Rod. It was never mentioned how she actually did it, but I believe we were led to assume one of these three methods was employed.