Aes Sedai and the White Tower

[anotherfingolfin]

Obviously the Tower is not Useless. That is an absolute that is hard to prove. Obviously there have a handful of exceptional AS, but they aren't a good indicator of the organisation as a whole.

One must look at the tower as a whole, and if as a whole, it has truly lived up to its potential as guardians against the shadow.

Other cultures like the Aiel/Seanchn etc have survived this long without the AS, and are arguably in better shape at start of the series. You can argue that each case is unique, but the point remains that the AS as an organisation are not that essential for a community to survive against the Shadow.

To my modern sensibilities, the idea of an organisation that is answerable only to itself which manipulates, and at times strongarms governments, is revolting.

 

It has been argued that one can't fault the AS, because they are no different than the rest of the population. Well if that's the case, then they should not expect any more respect or authority than the rest of the population. I must admit, I would have been much more positive about the WT, if they did not use the strength in the Power as the basis of their heirarchy. To me it sort of epitomises their entire M.O. while dealing with the world at large- I have the biggest stick (Magic), so you had better listen to me.

[yoniy0]

Other cultures like the Aiel/Seanchn etc have survived this long without the AS, and are arguably in better shape at start of the series.

Correct, but both have seen little interruption from Ishamael over the centuries (the trollocs did invade the waste, and so did Hawkwing, but neither really pressed the issue once they realized just how hard it would be to subdue it). Ishamael actually helped Seanchan become what it is now, for the sole reason that the Return would destabilize Randland at a crucial moment. And, talking about Seanchan, they had no Blight to contend with, and what Shadowspawn were left on their continent were eliminated by no other but rogue AS before Luthair arrived.

 

To my modern sensibilities, the idea of an organisation that is answerable only to itself which manipulates, and at times strongarms governments, is revolting.

[...]

To me it sort of epitomises their entire M.O. while dealing with the world at large- I have the biggest stick (Magic), so you had better listen to me.

You must be joking. The UN security council does roughly the same thing today. And blunders world affairs just as frequently as the Tower does. Not to mention, NATO and the US in particular is probably the only global force to actively use that 'stick' from time to time (which the Tower never does, by the Three Oaths), though many times their actions are to be commended IMO.

[MasterAblar]

Other cultures like the Aiel/Seanchn etc have survived this long without the AS, and are arguably in better shape at start of the series.

Correct, but both have seen little interruption from Ishamael over the centuries (the trollocs did invade the waste, and so did Hawkwing, but neither really pressed the issue once they realized just how hard it would be to subdue it). Ishamael actually helped Seanchan become what it is now, for the sole reason that the Return would destabilize Randland at a crucial moment. And, talking about Seanchan, they had no Blight to contend with, and what Shadowspawn were left on their continent were eliminated by no other but rogue AS before Luthair arrived.

 

To my modern sensibilities, the idea of an organisation that is answerable only to itself which manipulates, and at times strongarms governments, is revolting.

[...]

To me it sort of epitomises their entire M.O. while dealing with the world at large- I have the biggest stick (Magic), so you had better listen to me.

You must be joking. The UN security council does roughly the same thing today. And blunders world affairs just as frequently as the Tower does. Not to mention, NATO and the US in particular is probably the only global force to actively use that 'stick' from time to time (which the Tower never does, by the Three Oaths), though many times their actions are to be commended IMO.

 

The UN security council represents the whole world, whereas the WT does not.

[Durinax]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

just thought I would say that Moraines and Suains actions where illegal to the extent that they would have ceased to be AS if caught, thus cannot be considered AS in whether or not the WT is useful or not. Not to mention at max 5/300 (isnt that the rough number of AS?) of useful AS doesnt inspire confidence

[Elvira_Sedai]

 

The UN security council represents the whole world, whereas the WT does not.

 

The WT represents all countries where its members were born and influence only this part of the world , not Seanchen , not Aiel , not Shara etc.

 

Of cause , the WT wasn't and isn't useless in struggle vs. the Shadow . But the BA thing seriously corrupt its role , the only reason why the Oath Rode wasn't used much-much earlier for the Purge is plot needs , IMHO .

[MasterAblar]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

just thought I would say that Moraines and Suains actions where illegal to the extent that they would have ceased to be AS if caught, thus cannot be considered AS in whether or not the WT is useful or not. Not to mention at max 5/300 (isnt that the rough number of AS?) of useful AS doesnt inspire confidence

 

I think there's closer to like about 950-1000 aes sedai. About a quarter of which are black.

[Kahsm]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

just thought I would say that Moraines and Suains actions where illegal to the extent that they would have ceased to be AS if caught, thus cannot be considered AS in whether or not the WT is useful or not. Not to mention at max 5/300 (isnt that the rough number of AS?) of useful AS doesnt inspire confidence

 

They wouldn't have done it, or at least wouldn't have the knowledge to know they should do it, if they weren't Aes Sedai. So it works both ways. The institution is still enabled Siuan and Moir to be able to do what they did, despite not allowing it. But that's more the fault of the sitters at the time, and what we have already admitted is a corrupt majority. The Amyrlin is not absolute, and so a few bad apples CAN spoil the bunch. But a few good ones can also redeem them, like Moir, Cadsuane, Siuan, Pevera.

 

It was said that various Amyrlins had varying degrees of authority, and I always thought Siuan was on the low end of the authority scale.

[Suttree]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

just thought I would say that Moraines and Suains actions where illegal to the extent that they would have ceased to be AS if caught, thus cannot be considered AS in whether or not the WT is useful or not.

 

Since Tamra at the time set them to the task and Siuan was Amrylin, yes they very much represent the tower. You could argue it was the towers central purpose although most were not aware it was happening. Don't forget Tamra originally sent out other search parties which were killed off, Siuan had every reason to keep it quiet.

[solarz]

Let's look at societies that didn't have the White Tower:

 

- The Seanchan, pre-consolidation: channelers ran rampant, raised their own armies, and made war on each other. After consolidation, channelers became slaves and considered less than human.

 

- Shara: channelers are the power behind the throne, forcing a change of ruling figurehead every 7 years.

 

- Aiel: channelers are an integral part of society, well respected for their wisdom and not their ability to channel.

 

Of those, only the Aiel integrated their channelers successfully, and that is because their culture is rigidly bound by an honor system, and their every day is a struggle for survival.

[Elan Tedronai]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

 

 

last time i heard moraine was an aes sedai. not your usual whitecloak. wthe only reason she hid her quest was because the black ajah inflitrated the tower by then.

 

without moriane or siuan, your precious lord dragon would have been killed by shadowspawn way back in book 1

[yoniy0]

The UN security council represents the whole world, whereas the WT does not.

No, the UN (strives to) represent (most of) the world (not every people is represented in its assembly). The security council only represents those countries strong enough to claim a seat in it (usually by claiming legitimacy in holding a nuclear arsenal, which most countries can't - not because they're less deserving, mind you), plus one rotating member. And only the strongest hold the right of veto in it. So... no, it's not about equal representation. It's about power.

[MasterAblar]

The UN security council represents the whole world, whereas the WT does not.

No, the UN (strives to) represent (most of) the world (not every people is represented in its assembly). The security council only represents those countries strong enough to claim a seat in it (usually by claiming legitimacy in holding a nuclear arsenal, which most countries can't - not because they're less deserving, mind you), plus one rotating member. And only the strongest hold the right of veto in it. So... no, it's not about equal representation. It's about power.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Security Council consists of 5 permanent members (US,UK,Russia,France,China) each of which have a nuclear arsenal (though not all had one when the Security Council was created). In addition there are 10 rotating members from different regions of the world, elected by the General Assembly. Among these 10 are currently Lebbanon, Bosnia, Nigeria, and Gabon none of which are particularly powerful or influential.

Admitidly there are issues: only the permanent members have a nuclear arsenal and the right to veto. Furthermore they tend to act and use the veto in their own intersts, however these nations don't always agree with each other which limits their power. Since it takes 9 affirmative votes to pass a proposal even if all the permanent members tried to group together on a decision, they would still need the non permanent members.

 

I'm not saying it's perfect, since the permanent members hold more power than others, but it's already a fair sight better than the WT which holds (or rather held) a monopoly on the one power and holds a certain, and rather undeserved, prestige in their name which stops any nation from contending with it. It would be as if a single nation in our world held the nuclear weapon and none other. No one should have such power.

[capuga]

Let's look at societies that didn't have the White Tower:

 

- The Seanchan, pre-consolidation: channelers ran rampant, raised their own armies, and made war on each other. After consolidation, channelers became slaves and considered less than human.

 

- Shara: channelers are the power behind the throne, forcing a change of ruling figurehead every 7 years.

 

- Aiel: channelers are an integral part of society, well respected for their wisdom and not their ability to channel.

 

Of those, only the Aiel integrated their channelers successfully, and that is because their culture is rigidly bound by an honor system, and their every day is a struggle for survival.

 

You forgot the Sea Folk, whose channelers are an integral and respected part of society like the Aiel.

[solarz]

You forgot the Sea Folk, whose channelers are an integral and respected part of society like the Aiel.

 

I didn't. The Sea Folk channeler culture is heavily influenced by their desire to hide from the White Tower. Their Wind Finders can't afford to rule or the White Tower will come crashing down upon them.

[EvilSocrates]

Technically the Seanchan have integrated most of their Channelers quite well (the sul'dam!)

[USURP888]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

 

 

 

last time i heard moraine was an aes sedai. not your usual whitecloak. wthe only reason she hid her quest was because the black ajah inflitrated the tower by then.

 

without moriane or siuan, your precious lord dragon would have been killed by shadowspawn way back in book 1

 

 

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

[solarz]

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

 

I would hardly call the Amyrlin Seat to be an "exception" of the White Tower. Yes, the White Tower was infiltrated by the Black Ajah, but then, which Randland organization doesn't?

 

The Borderlanders? Oops, forgot about Ingtar. And Malkier.

 

The Black Tower? Oh wait, no.

 

The Seanchan? *cough* SemirhageSuroth *cough*

[Puny]

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

 

I would hardly call the Amyrlin Seat to be an "exception" of the White Tower. Yes, the White Tower was infiltrated by the Black Ajah, but then, which Randland organization doesn't?

 

The Borderlanders? Oops, forgot about Ingtar. And Malkier.

 

The Black Tower? Oh wait, no.

 

The Seanchan? *cough* SemirhageSuroth *cough*

 

I doubt 20% of any nation are DF.

[MasterAblar]

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

 

I would hardly call the Amyrlin Seat to be an "exception" of the White Tower. Yes, the White Tower was infiltrated by the Black Ajah, but then, which Randland organization doesn't?

 

The Borderlanders? Oops, forgot about Ingtar. And Malkier.

 

The Black Tower? Oh wait, no.

 

The Seanchan? *cough* SemirhageSuroth *cough*

 

First of all, I don't think you can judge an entire organization or people through one or two individuals. You wouldn't judge all Germans based on Hitler would you?

Secondly it isn't just the black aes sedai that are being critisized, its aes sedai in general. Lelaine and Romanda for instance, are good examples of aes sedai who barely deserve the title in my opinion. That doesn't mean they've never done anything of worth. Romanda for example reacted quickly to revelation of Delana as black, made possible by Narishma. But overall what they do is for the Towers benefit and not the worlds, which isn't what being aes sedai is about.

[MasterAblar]

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

 

I would hardly call the Amyrlin Seat to be an "exception" of the White Tower. Yes, the White Tower was infiltrated by the Black Ajah, but then, which Randland organization doesn't?

 

The Borderlanders? Oops, forgot about Ingtar. And Malkier.

 

The Black Tower? Oh wait, no.

 

The Seanchan? *cough* SemirhageSuroth *cough*

 

I doubt 20% of any nation are DF.

 

True, but I doubt the shadow has tried so actively to influence any nation so much as it has the WT. And regular people aren't as powerful as aes sedai.

[EvilSocrates]

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

 

I would hardly call the Amyrlin Seat to be an "exception" of the White Tower. Yes, the White Tower was infiltrated by the Black Ajah, but then, which Randland organization doesn't?

 

The Borderlanders? Oops, forgot about Ingtar. And Malkier.

 

The Black Tower? Oh wait, no.

 

The Seanchan? *cough* SemirhageSuroth *cough*

 

I doubt 20% of any nation are DF.

 

Of course not, but the higher percentage of DF Aes Sedai is because they are worth far, far more to the shadow than a random Borderlander, and thus no cost is spared to get them. All you need is some DF channelers running around and finding girls who can channel and sending them to the Tower. Threaten them when they are young and weak into being darkfriends and BAM instant BA. Only the AS have a power structure that is so easy to climb the ranks of (poor farmer born with high potential--instant seat at the table) and so valuable once infiltrated. Well, except for the BT, but that's pretty rotten too.

[Elan Tedronai]

Force against the shadow or useless meddlers?

 

 

LOL, Has everyone forgotten moriaine already?

 

Yes Moiraine, The person who seeked out Rand and actually HID what she did from the White Tower fearing that she would be killed or stilled.

 

Moiraine and Siuan DID NOT trust the white tower because they did not know who was black ajah amongst them, how is that a defense of the AS as a whole when the odd AS who do something exceptional does not trust the institution itself?

 

 

 

last time i heard moraine was an aes sedai. not your usual whitecloak. wthe only reason she hid her quest was because the black ajah inflitrated the tower by then.

 

without moriane or siuan, your precious lord dragon would have been killed by shadowspawn way back in book 1

 

 

It's not me who made Rand precious but the author so blame RJ if Rand is more important than your precious Aes Sedai.

 

Nice that you are using the two exceptions to the whole rotten tower at that point in time to actually defend said rotten tower.

 

 

huh? wtf are u talkin about?

 

the rotten tower u keep talking about unearthed moraine, siuan, verin and cadsuane.

[solarz]

First of all, I don't think you can judge an entire organization or people through one or two individuals. You wouldn't judge all Germans based on Hitler would you?

Secondly it isn't just the black aes sedai that are being critisized, its aes sedai in general. Lelaine and Romanda for instance, are good examples of aes sedai who barely deserve the title in my opinion. That doesn't mean they've never done anything of worth. Romanda for example reacted quickly to revelation of Delana as black, made possible by Narishma. But overall what they do is for the Towers benefit and not the worlds, which isn't what being aes sedai is about.

 

I don't think that's a good example. All we have seen of Lelaine and Romanda are through their roles as antagonists to Egwene. Yes, they're ambitious, but that is what happens during times of power transition: all kinds of people want to fill the leadership seat. Look at what happened to Andor when Morgase vanished. Just because we got two succession wars doesn't mean Andor isn't, in general, a pretty well-governed nation.

 

The White Tower is an organization that promotes a lot of scheming, but that doesn't automatically mean it doesn't do good. The Seanchan are also great schemers, yet they still manage to provide safety and prosperity to their people.

[b3arz3rg3r]

My take on the Aes Sedai is that they have become mostly useless meddlers. Between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars that's when the Aes Sedai were a true force against the Shadow, but afterwards they grew complacent. Their general level deteriorated until they came to the lowpoint between the time Moiraine became an Aes Sedai and Egwene enrolled. Many Aes Sedai were only going through the motions of being Aes Sedai. They kept up appearances, but they had isolated themselves from the world and were pretty useless outside of the Tower. Only when Rand left the Two Rivers and the chaos he caused along the way did the momentum change. The generation of Egwene, Nyneave and Elayne has a different mettle than the Aes Sedai of the last 1,000 years and it will take the greatest Amyrlin of the last 1,000 years to make the Aes Sedai shape up in time to be of any use during TG and afterwards.

[USURP888]

 

huh? wtf are u talkin about?

 

the rotten tower u keep talking about unearthed moraine, siuan, verin and cadsuane.

 

The same tower that spewed out Elaida, Alviarin, Katherine, Chesmal, Romanda, Lelaine? you keep highlighting the exceptional ones and are blind to the rotten ones. The Aes Sedai as an institution are dysfunctional. Except for the exceptional ones, they pretty much use their power for the benefit of the tower not the world.

 

WTF indeed.