What exactly did Demandred do?

[PastorDeSemolaDeGranoDuro]

The balefiring theory could, I suppose, explain why we have gotten few POV's outside Randland. Perhaps RJ had those countries sidelined for balefiring on a mass scale so he didn't give us POV's of people we might come to love.

 

I just think the Antipasta rates his performance to date. Maybe it is something in particular.

[Agitel]

The thought of RJ lying about Taimendred is silly, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we were to pretend the theory was baselss and came from nowhere. LoC opened with Demandred being tasked to do something important. LoC ended with Demandred being congratulated on doing it. There's no Demandred between that. However, we're introduced to a suspicious character who comes unexpectedly after some great escape and disappearance who appears near the beginning and closes the novel, setting himself up into a position that would be a great coup for the Shadow and does some important things in the novel who has similarities of peronality with Demandred. It is a logical connection that he may in fact be Demandred. Sammael may behave somewhat similarly, but Sammael wasn't set up the same way Demandred was in this novel. It was silly of Jordan to not anticipate the response he got, and in truth his villains were often too mysterious and absent for a story this big. Now, we can obviously make the connection that Taim and Demandred may have worked together on some scheme, but Taimendred was, again, a logical connection to make.

 

This message submitted by phone. Please forgive spelling and grammar mistakes, if any.

[yoniy0]

Not to mention, RJ made a point of letting us know something was iffy about Taim's appearance, so he should've been tripping not to think we'll suspect an imposter. And once you realize that we would, who else but the Forsaken has been assuming identities around that time? So unless Semi suddenly decided to wear pants, who could we have suspected? Perhaps Osan'gar, I guess.

[Zentari]

Mr Ares: Wanna share what that big gasp moment was?

 

KoD "To Make An Anchor Weep"

 

The Amayar mass suicide.

Yeah, well no offense but this reminded me of some crazy cults out there so it failed to make an impact.Not to mention that we knew practically next to nothing about those people so why was RJ really surprised ? He should have familiarized his readers first before pulling that off.

[Demon_AS]

Forgive an idiot a stupid question, by why was the Amayar mass-suicide a significant moment? I know they had some prophecy declaring the "End of Illusion" or whatever when the crystal sa'angreal on Tremalking was destroyed, but how is that linked to Demandred?

[Elan Tedronai]

logain will get his glory once the last battle is done and rand retires from the scene.

 

he will be the first male channeller under the banner of aes sedai. He will be the leader of all male channellers.

 

 

as for demandred nothing he does in the last book short of killing rand will make up for the utter disappointment he has been in the series

[Puny]

logain will get his glory once the last battle is done and rand retires from the scene.

 

he will be the first male channeller under the banner of aes sedai. He will be the leader of all male channellers.

 

 

as for demandred nothing he does in the last book short of killing rand will make up for the utter disappointment he has been in the series

 

Thank you Suttre! I can understand that a whole nation killing itself cause they see a glowing sphere is tragic and big gasp moment, but it kinda failed imo because we hadn´t gotten a glimpse of the Amayar, no PoV or so during any book. If the whole of Ayyad got wiped out I wouldn´t care either, cause there hasn´t been an emotional investment in them.

 

Elan: If Logain gets his glory after the last battle, I guess that would be oki. He would be a great leader for the Asha´man. I was just kinda hoping his great glory will come during the last battle, not after. As to the Demandred-thingy, I think you can mirror that with the Amyar. If there is alot of talk about Demandred doing something terrible, he is so badass, he is gonna rip the Pattern to pieces and he does that in the background of the overall story, then I can see that if he doesn´t pull something huge off people will be disappointed. I wonder how RJ/Brandon are gonna pull that off. For me Demandred has been gone for so long, lurking in the shadows that I could care less what he does. It´s kinda the same as when the Emperial family got slaughtered. Too far away, don´t know them so ...who cares. Although I can understand why it happens like it does... more scenes=more pages=thicker books, we can´t get everything.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

I feel like Demandred got forgotten for the whole series. Like Logain, he is an interesting and popular character who has done... absolutely nothing.

 

Both of them are disappointing because there was huge build up around them doing something epic, and thus far neither of them has done anything.

 

Agree completely.

[Kahsm]

Mr Ares: Wanna share what that big gasp moment was?

 

KoD "To Make An Anchor Weep"

 

The Amayar mass suicide.

Yeah, well no offense but this reminded me of some crazy cults out there so it failed to make an impact.Not to mention that we knew practically next to nothing about those people so why was RJ really surprised ? He should have familiarized his readers first before pulling that off.

 

Mashadar appeared in Shadar Logoth after all the Aridhol-ians killed each other. Wonder if there will be something similar could happen on Tremalking. Obviously Aridhol was all about darkness, and the Amayar was deviotion and worship, but maybe there's some "good-er" version of Mashadar =) </crazy speculation>

[Puny]

Mr Ares: Wanna share what that big gasp moment was?

 

KoD "To Make An Anchor Weep"

 

The Amayar mass suicide.

Yeah, well no offense but this reminded me of some crazy cults out there so it failed to make an impact.Not to mention that we knew practically next to nothing about those people so why was RJ really surprised ? He should have familiarized his readers first before pulling that off.

 

Mashadar appeared in Shadar Logoth after all the Aridhol-ians killed each other. Wonder if there will be something similar could happen on Tremalking. Obviously Aridhol was all about darkness, and the Amayar was deviotion and worship, but maybe there's some "good-er" version of Mashadar =) </crazy speculation>

 

Lolz... A loveMashy that makes you wanna hug and kiss everyone you see. But on a serious note I don´t think that will happen. A whole nation killing itself because they think the endtimes are near... mm missguided devotion that led to no good, I do think loveMashy will be a no show on that one.

[Mr Ares]

The thought of RJ lying about Taimendred is silly, but we'd be kidding ourselves if we were to pretend the theory was baselss and came from nowhere.

Which is why we aren't claiming that. Simply that the evidence was never so overwhelming that RJ couldn't possibly have missed this interpretation. We have a character with some similarities to a few of the Chosen, with some suspicious attributes, who evidently dislikes playing second fiddle, but who apparently lacks Demandred's degree of annoyance over the matter. People took a similarity and read far more into it than was ever intended, then blamed the author.

 

Not to mention, RJ made a point of letting us know something was iffy about Taim's appearance, so he should've been tripping not to think we'll suspect an imposter. And once you realize that we would, who else but the Forsaken has been assuming identities around that time? So unless Semi suddenly decided to wear pants, who could we have suspected? Perhaps Osan'gar, I guess.

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

 

Mr Ares: Wanna share what that big gasp moment was?

 

KoD "To Make An Anchor Weep"

 

The Amayar mass suicide.

Yeah, well no offense but this reminded me of some crazy cults out there so it failed to make an impact.Not to mention that we knew practically next to nothing about those people so why was RJ really surprised ? He should have familiarized his readers first before pulling that off.

Of course, that RJ apparently didn't realise that shows that he was quite capable of missing things that are very obvious to other people - applying that to Taimandred, are people really surprised that RJ could have missed something else?

[yoniy0]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

[Puny]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

 

That Taim is still fishy in my mind. But isn´t it that he has worked with the Forsaken and picked up some of their words and way of speaking?

[Kahsm]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

 

I'm sticking to my story that Taim (Ta-eem) is an AoL personality in some farmer sparker farmer. The farmer wore a beared when he went crazy, started calling himself Taim, claimed to be the DR, and started the war. It wasn't till taint-caused Taim fully took over the poor sparker's mind that he shaved his beared, since AoL Taim never wore a beard. And the mannerism change also made him less recognizable as the same person.

 

http://theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=121&theo=2761#22172

 

Fanciful? yes.

[mb]

It's RAFO. They never come out and directly state it, but it's easier to discuss and support with more info from the other books. It's something you witnessed in the book, though. I'll say that much.

I read up through Gathering Storm; I have not been able to conclude what Demandred did in this book.

[Mr Ares]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

What mystery? He shaved. He also looked older due to the rigours of his journey. A much simpler explanation than anything involving Demandred. If he just looked like Taim, it would be much easier to believe he was a Chosen in disguise.

[mbuehner]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

What mystery? He shaved. He also looked older due to the rigours of his journey. A much simpler explanation than anything involving Demandred. If he just looked like Taim, it would be much easier to believe he was a Chosen in disguise.

 

The mystery is why Jordan put that exchange in the book at all. As well have Bashere ask Taim if he bought new boots. Why would he have Taim's identity questioned like that? Again- the simplest answers are either foreshadowing or red herring, and we are told it was neither, but instead some weird idle conversation that isn't meant to indicate anything.

 

Contrast Taim's introduction to Cadsuane's, where an AS instantly comes bursting forward begging Cadsuane not to hurt Rand... there is never any doubt that Cadsuane is who she says she is.

[Kahsm]

Don't think anyone knew Taim as well as an AS would known Cadsuane, who had already retired after a long career of Aes Sedai-ing. People can look completely different when they shave. And people DO on occasion shave. And authors DO on occasion put things into books that are not particularly relevant. How many times have we had the pouring of tea described to us? I'm not going to start thinking that the action of pouring tea is the motion that drives the wheel of time in some giant perpetual motion machine.

[mbuehner]

Don't think anyone knew Taim as well as an AS would known Cadsuane, who had already retired after a long career of Aes Sedai-ing. People can look completely different when they shave. And people DO on occasion shave. And authors DO on occasion put things into books that are not particularly relevant. How many times have we had the pouring of tea described to us? I'm not going to start thinking that the action of pouring tea is the motion that drives the wheel of time in some giant perpetual motion machine.

 

The question isn't whether Taim had a beard or not, or what his taste in footwear was for that matter. The question is why Jordan put an exchange in Taim's first appearance raising the question of his identity, particularly a few paragraphs before raising the prospect of a forsaken infiltration. That is significantly more provocative than drinking tea or anything else. This is yet another example of asking us to believe Jordan did something unwittingly that raised everyone's eyebrows instantly when they read it- this was a classic Jordan easter egg. At some point don't you just have to ask yourself if we're being asked to swallow too much from such a careful author? You'll note that there are NO cases of Jordan 'accidentally' including a detail that provides evidence against. What are the odds that all these oversights flow in one direction?

[Kahsm]

Don't think anyone knew Taim as well as an AS would known Cadsuane, who had already retired after a long career of Aes Sedai-ing. People can look completely different when they shave. And people DO on occasion shave. And authors DO on occasion put things into books that are not particularly relevant. How many times have we had the pouring of tea described to us? I'm not going to start thinking that the action of pouring tea is the motion that drives the wheel of time in some giant perpetual motion machine.

 

The question isn't whether Taim had a beard or not, or what his taste in footwear was for that matter. The question is why Jordan put an exchange in Taim's first appearance raising the question of his identity, particularly a few paragraphs before raising the prospect of a forsaken infiltration. That is significantly more provocative than drinking tea or anything else. This is yet another example of asking us to believe Jordan did something unwittingly that raised everyone's eyebrows instantly when they read it- this was a classic Jordan easter egg. At some point don't you just have to ask yourself if we're being asked to swallow too much from such a careful author? You'll note that there are NO cases of Jordan 'accidentally' including a detail that provides evidence against. What are the odds that all these oversights flow in one direction?

 

Friend of mine just finished LoC for the first time. As soon as she finished, the first thing she said to me was "I think Mazrim Taim is Demandred" lol. I figure I won't let her down till Winter's Heart since I believe that's when RJ shot the theory down.

 

Yes, despite RJ's apparent surprise, it seemed very plausible. But others have pointed out things that are also not similar about the two. And the Moridin theory is almost exactly the same, so there's a plausible alternate explanation right there.

[yoniy0]

That's not the point. I believe we're not arguing anymore whether RJ initially intended for Taim to be Demandred (there's not much point in arguing that issue, as we can never know for sure). The thing is - it's extremely unlikely that RJ wasn't aware he was casting a suspicion upon Taim, that we would suspect he wasn't who he claimed to be from the get-go. And, since we knew the locations of every male Forsaken (that we were aware of at the time) but Demandred, I really don't believe that he didn't expect this reaction.

 

Proof positive of the obviousness of that connection - almost every single reader I'm aware of came up with it on his/her own. Even if it were only a large minority of readers (like, one in five, which I think we can all agree is a very conservative estimate), that still proves that the theory is 'intuitively obvious to the most casual reader', right or wrong aside.

[Mr Ares]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

What mystery? He shaved. He also looked older due to the rigours of his journey. A much simpler explanation than anything involving Demandred. If he just looked like Taim, it would be much easier to believe he was a Chosen in disguise.

The mystery is why Jordan put that exchange in the book at all. As well have Bashere ask Taim if he bought new boots. Why would he have Taim's identity questioned like that? Again- the simplest answers are either foreshadowing or red herring, and we are told it was neither, but instead some weird idle conversation that isn't meant to indicate anything.

 

Contrast Taim's introduction to Cadsuane's, where an AS instantly comes bursting forward begging Cadsuane not to hurt Rand... there is never any doubt that Cadsuane is who she says she is.

If a guy shows up, claiming to be Mazrim Taim, what is there to say this guy really is who he says he is? Especially as the Chosen can use Illusion - sure, he looks like Taim but that alone is meaningless. On the other hand, by questioning his identity, he is forced to provide evidence to prove he really is Taim - which he does. Suddenly, him being Demandred (or anyone other than Taim) becomes much harder than if he had just been accepted as Taim on sight. Thus this serves as evidence against Taim being an imposter (and might well have been included for that very reason).

[cookiecrisp]

He points out there is something iffy about Taim's appearance and then follows this up by having Taim display knowledge that Demandred probably wouldn't have. There's no reason to suspect an imposter, and good reason not to.

Oh, come on. 'Look here - a mystery' followed immediately by 'no, never mind' is a fail-safe way to tell the readers something's wrong without the characters' realizing that. I was hardly persuaded by Taim's answer. I dare anyone to claim otherwise. If all there was to it was a new beard, what's the point of the whole exchange?

 

That Taim is still fishy in my mind. But isn´t it that he has worked with the Forsaken and picked up some of their words and way of speaking?

 

 

Well, if you read ToM, people in the Black Tower

don't seem to be who they were. Anyone who takes one of Taim's lessons turns out "wrong" as well as incredibly adroit in ToP compared to their previous selves.

 

 

It's safe to assume the same happened to Taim.

[mbuehner]

On the other hand, by questioning his identity, he is forced to provide evidence to prove he really is Taim - which he does.

 

Do you often have to force people you've met before to prove their identity like Bashere did? Even if they shave? Wouldn't the more realistic scenario be Bashere simply recognizing him like everybody else does with every other character they've met before and then come in contact with?

 

Moreover (i dont have the passage in front of me) Bashere still looked doubtful after Taim said his piece, and Rand thought something along the lines of 'is this or isn't this Taim'. This is the huge problem I have- if Jordan had said that he intentionally made it mysterious just to raise questions with readers, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. But he's saying he didn't do that and had no idea of obvious a suggestion he was making. That's just really tough to believe.

[yoniy0]

Thus this serves as evidence against Taim being an imposter (and might well have been included for that very reason).

It might, I'll give you that, but recall how prepared Aran'gar was for her role. It's naive to the extreme to expect Demandred to fail such a casual inspection. Hence, I disagree. The exchange might've served to ease Rand's suspicions, but not the readers'.