Tuatha'an vs Aiel

[mb]

Vote then tell reasons.

[Jay Aldridge]

I think the Jenn Aiel were the only ones to keep their vows. The Tuathan'an and the modern Aiel have both changed from their original roles.

[Carnivean]

I think the Jenn Aiel were the only ones to keep their vows. The Tuathan'an and the modern Aiel have both changed from their original roles.

This.

[Durinax]

I think the Aiel Aiel are the closest, since they tried to protect the true followers of the old ways

[anotherfingolfin]

The Tinkers are closer to the old ideal than the present day Aiel, if that's what you mean. Neither are 'lost' though. Do you adhere to some life-style or keep to some promises that your ancestors made 3000 years ago?

[francy]

I think the Jenn Aiel were the only ones to keep their vows. The Tuathan'an and the modern Aiel have both changed from their original roles.

This.

 

Yes, this, for me too.

[JKN-SW]

I don't see any of them as lost. They have both changed, but that is to be expected over three millenia. Of course the Aiel have changed the most, but it is for a reason, and therefor I can't see them as lost.

[mb]

To me, the Tuatha'an are lost.

Several reasons::

-Since good & bad balance each other, there would always be violence/evil doers.

-People that defend themselves have better chance at surviving than pacifists.

-Pacifism does not really prevent violence/evil.

[Jon Paul]

Pacifists do great in society.. whilst other people are away fighting and dying for them..

[Durinax]

Pacifists do great in society.. whilst other people are away fighting and dying for them..

and the pacifists complain about their liberties being protected

[anotherfingolfin]

wow you peole are really going to let this slide into a socio-political pro-/anti-war flavoured debate? well maybe i'm overreacting, but Durinax's last comment seemed that way. my bad if it wan't the intention.

Tinkers, for the most part live outside of mainstream society. they do what they want to. they aren't asking you to come and protect them. and the one incident of a ravaged few running towards the town in TSR isn't really sufficient evidence to the contrary.

[jwood01]

Anyone think it is possible that the Aiel war song about "washing the spears" will be a variant of "the song"?

The Aiel avoid the Tinkers at all costs so the Tinkers have probably never heard this song at all.

[Cutlass]

They both fell off the tracks... The Aiel essentially switched releigion (way of the leaf for the way of the spear) thats wandering from the beaten path for sure.

 

The tinkers kept to the releigion, but IIRC the Jenn were the servants of the Aes Sedai, tinkers are certainly not that. No one can fault either for the directions they went, and the choices made sense at the time...

 

Just a curiosity - what is the tinkers reaction to Aes Sedai? do they have any recolection of the past... passed on? or some special ter'angreal of their own? or just follow a version of the way of the leaf? do all tinkers follow it the same way? (a bible perhaps, or just word of mouth...after 3000+ years that could lose a lot to interpertation, espically if there are many "bands", and little interaction)

 

Do they often interact with each other? and are there many of them? All I can recall is that they travel and search for a song they don't know. I would love to get a POV from the tinkers gathering outside of Ebo Dar just to see if they have another peice of the puzzle. I would love to see there point of veiw of the speration from the Jenn.

[Suttree]

Pacifists do great in society.. whilst other people are away fighting and dying for them..

and the pacifists complain about their liberties being protected

 

and yet every now and then, one of them comes along and is the catalyst for a huge amount of social change...

 

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. ... Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.-MLK Jr.

 

also in the books we have

 

“Twice they offered me shelter when I needed it, me and my friends, and asked nothing in return,” Perrin said quietly. “Yet what I remember best about them was when Trollocs surrounded Emond’s Field. The Tuatha’an stood on the green with children strapped to their backs, the few of their own that survived and ours. They would not fight—it isn’t their way—but if the Trollocs overran us, they were ready to try to carry the children to safety. Carrying our children would have hampered them, made escape even less likely than it already was, but they asked for the task.” Neald gave an embarrassed cough and looked away.

[mb]

About relationship between Tinkers & Aes Sedia, A tinker told Mat that they send their channeling girls to the White Tower. Do not remember which book; for sure sometime between Ebou Dar & Caemlyn.

Do not recall any scene telling anything beyond that.

[USURP888]

I voted for They NEITHER: everyone may believe what they want.

 

The JENN Aiel were slaves of the Aes Sedai. I don't know why there is a double standard wherein the Aiel way are viewed in a good light but the Seanchan's use of da'covale ( excepting the damane ) are seen in a bad light, both are slaves and both cultures see it as right and honorable. I personally believe RJ patterned them not from the US experience with slavery but more on the East Asian experience like in China.

[USURP888]

and yet every now and then, one of them comes along and is the catalyst for a huge amount of social change...

 

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. ... Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.-MLK Jr.

 

I love that quote of MLKjr. But I have to disagree that it is applicable all the time. For pacifists to exist, their enemies must have restraint. Bad as the U.S. society was then with segregation, lynchings and all they still try to put up a veneer of restraint and the illusion of order. Imagine MLKjr. and/or Gandhi confronting Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong il or Bin Laden. Can you honestly say that their pacifist message would change Hitler et.al? There are evil in this world that brave men needs to fight and confront so that the rest of us who are too weak to fight can live.

 

edit: spelling