Rand and Egwene at the FOM

[Gordar]

If Rand has a plan, then he should share it with Egwene ASAP.

 

What are you, a darkfriend? You actually dare to propose that the people that serve the light communicate? ;)

 

This may be a weird reply, but has nobody ever noticed that the forsaken and even darkfriends do communicate?

[MasterAblar]

The only thing Rand can do is threaten to let DO win if they don't meet his demands. That's not a good bargaining position.

 

However, the Rhuidean visions show the result in effect. That kind of implies he won.

 

But what are Rand's demands? He wants their help most likely, and their channelers to fight in the last battle with him. Rand's bargaining position is more like "I will die at TG to save you all with or without your help. Help me and increase my chances of winning, or oppose me like Latra Posae did and end up with an age with insane male channelers and a second breaking of the world!"

 

Egwene has no alternative to propose, whereas Latra Posae did. Breaking the seals is inevitable. Egwene is a smart woman, so she must realize this. IMO, Egwene's point of contention is about breaking the seals without having a plan in place for what to do after. If Rand has a plan, then he should share it with Egwene ASAP.

 

Egwene never mentioned to Elayne, Nyneave or the Wise Ones that Rand did not have a plan for after the breaking of the seals. She only mentioned that Rand wanted to break the seals and if she is trying to convince people to oppose Rand, she should probably bring forth the key reason why.

[randsc]

Wait, Darlin has one of the seals?

I only meant that the three are good candidates to hold Rand's Seals. We know Bashere used to hold one, but we don't actually know where any of them are today. Hence my speculation. There are three, after all.

 

"The Seals", the ones that Bashere, et al have, are not the actual seals. They are merely the focus points. It may very well be that physically breaking those disks is not required at all.

Touche.

But I find it hard to believe. Ever since TEotW, the state of the focus points has been interlocked with the DO's freedom to act. They themselves crumble when the Seals break. Does that not imply that a connection exists?

 

Which proves conclusively that the seals can fail even if nothing happens to the focus points, no? What can degrade can also be intentionally destroyed.

[yoniy0]

They themselves crumble when the Seals break.

Which proves conclusively that the seals can fail even if nothing happens to the focus points, no? What can degrade can also be intentionally destroyed.

Not at all. On the contrary, it seems to suggest the DO has to break the focus point to break the Seal itself. Perhaps the Seal's dependent upon it (which would make sense, otherwise why choose cuendillar for them?)

[DemandredFO]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted, so she was right to oppose even if for the wrong reasons. LTT needed the True Power and that's why he failed. That's a suspicion not a fact, I oppine he needs the True Power. My other opinion is that Ishamael was the champion of the Light and when he turned it became a draw.

[jwood01]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted, so she was right to oppose even if for the wrong reasons. LTT needed the True Power and that's why he failed. That's a suspicion not a fact, I oppine he needs the True Power. My other opinion is that Ishamael was the champion of the Light and when he turned it became a draw.

 

I always thought that using only Saidin was the reason the DO could make its counterstroke and taint Saidin. It was my understanding that if Saidin and Saidar were used together, the taint would have been avoided. This is incorrect?

[jwood01]

The only thing Rand can do is threaten to let DO win if they don't meet his demands. That's not a good bargaining position.

 

However, the Rhuidean visions show the result in effect. That kind of implies he won.

 

But what are Rand's demands? He wants their help most likely, and their channelers to fight in the last battle with him. Rand's bargaining position is more like "I will die at TG to save you all with or without your help. Help me and increase my chances of winning, or oppose me like Latra Posae did and end up with an age with insane male channelers and a second breaking of the world!"

 

Egwene has no alternative to propose, whereas Latra Posae did. Breaking the seals is inevitable. Egwene is a smart woman, so she must realize this. IMO, Egwene's point of contention is about breaking the seals without having a plan in place for what to do after. If Rand has a plan, then he should share it with Egwene ASAP.

 

Egwene never mentioned to Elayne, Nyneave or the Wise Ones that Rand did not have a plan for after the breaking of the seals. She only mentioned that Rand wanted to break the seals and if she is trying to convince people to oppose Rand, she should probably bring forth the key reason why.

 

I couldn't agree more.

[MasterAblar]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted, so she was right to oppose even if for the wrong reasons. LTT needed the True Power and that's why he failed. That's a suspicion not a fact, I oppine he needs the True Power. My other opinion is that Ishamael was the champion of the Light and when he turned it became a draw.

 

I always thought that using only Saidin was the reason the DO could make its counterstroke and taint Saidin. It was my understanding that if Saidin and Saidar were used together, the taint would have been avoided. This is incorrect?

 

Yeah, if both had been used, both would have been tainted. Not that anyone knew that could even happen, so that's not why LPD opposed LTT's plan.

[solarz]

Yeah, if both had been used, both would have been tainted. Not that anyone knew that could even happen, so that's not why LPD opposed LTT's plan.

 

Actually, no one knows what the outcome would have been. Maybe the bore would have been sealed without any side effects, or maybe both would have been tainted.

[MasterAblar]

Yeah, if both had been used, both would have been tainted. Not that anyone knew that could even happen, so that's not why LPD opposed LTT's plan.

 

Actually, no one knows what the outcome would have been. Maybe the bore would have been sealed without any side effects, or maybe both would have been tainted.

 

No one knows in the book, but we, thanks to RJ, know what the outcome would have been.

[jwood01]

Yeah, if both had been used, both would have been tainted. Not that anyone knew that could even happen, so that's not why LPD opposed LTT's plan.

 

Actually, no one knows what the outcome would have been. Maybe the bore would have been sealed without any side effects, or maybe both would have been tainted.

 

No one knows in the book, but we, thanks to RJ, know what the outcome would have been.

 

So RJ did say that both would've been tainted?

[solarz]

No one knows in the book, but we, thanks to RJ, know what the outcome would have been.

 

And where did RJ say that?

 

http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=The_Strike_at_Shayol_Ghul

 

1. Speculation of the wilder sort is rife among some who call themselves historians, and the discovery of this material has resulted in the expected from the usual quarters. Would the great sa'angreal have proven effective used as Patra Posae desired? Had the seals been placed by a circle comprised of men and women together, might the men, or even saidin itself, have been protected in some fashion from the Dark One's counter stroke? Or would saidar have been tainted as well? The last possibility is enough to curdle the coldest blood, yet the fact is that events transpired as they transpired, and such speculation is no more than a fireside game to frighten the gullible. Those I speak of will know who I mean.

[MasterAblar]

Yeah, if both had been used, both would have been tainted. Not that anyone knew that could even happen, so that's not why LPD opposed LTT's plan.

 

Actually, no one knows what the outcome would have been. Maybe the bore would have been sealed without any side effects, or maybe both would have been tainted.

 

No one knows in the book, but we, thanks to RJ, know what the outcome would have been.

 

So RJ did say that both would've been tainted?

 

Yes

[MasterAblar]

No one knows in the book, but we, thanks to RJ, know what the outcome would have been.

 

And where did RJ say that?

 

http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=The_Strike_at_Shayol_Ghul

 

1. Speculation of the wilder sort is rife among some who call themselves historians, and the discovery of this material has resulted in the expected from the usual quarters. Would the great sa'angreal have proven effective used as Patra Posae desired? Had the seals been placed by a circle comprised of men and women together, might the men, or even saidin itself, have been protected in some fashion from the Dark One's counter stroke? Or would saidar have been tainted as well? The last possibility is enough to curdle the coldest blood, yet the fact is that events transpired as they transpired, and such speculation is no more than a fireside game to frighten the gullible. Those I speak of will know who I mean.

 

I don't have the quote myself but I've seen it plenty of times on here. All try to find it but maybe someone else has it. That passage is from tSaSG if I'm not mistaken so it's still in wheel of time universe.

[solarz]

I don't have the quote myself but I've seen it plenty of times on here. All try to find it but maybe someone else has it. That passage is from tSaSG if I'm not mistaken so it's still in wheel of time universe.

 

I just gave the link to "the Strike at Shayol Ghul", and nowhere does it mention a definite conclusion.

[MasterAblar]

I don't have the quote myself but I've seen it plenty of times on here. All try to find it but maybe someone else has it. That passage is from tSaSG if I'm not mistaken so it's still in wheel of time universe.

 

I just gave the link to "the Strike at Shayol Ghul", and nowhere does it mention a definite conclusion.

 

Yes, because it is in universe. The Strike at Shayol Ghul was written as if by a historian from the WoT world. In the Wheel of Time world no one knows what would have happened had women participated in the sealing. Hence, the lack of a definite conclusion in that passage.

 

Maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly. The quote where RJ says both saidin and saidar would have been tainted isn't from The Strike at Shayol Ghul, it's from an interview or a book signing, I don't know.

[Kahsm]

Here it is.

 

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant”26 , which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

I forget who... someone with a high post count, suggested that Fain might be used as a buffer to stop the backlash. Similar to how Shadar Logoth was used to cleanse the taint.

[MasterAblar]

Here it is.

 

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q: Yes, yes.

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant”26 , which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

I forget who... someone with a high post count, suggested that Fain might be used as a buffer to stop the backlash. Similar to how Shadar Logoth was used to cleanse the taint.

 

Thank you! I've been looking everywhere for that quote. Then again I'm not very good at looking for things.

[Suttree]

Yes indeed Saidar would have been tainted as well. LPD was opposed to LTT's plan because it was too dangerous and posed too many risks. She turned out to be right considering the backlash and taint on Saidin.

[Stitch]

Actually, given that they didnt really have any alternatives (that we know of) back in the AoL... LTT did the right thing, even if the cost was high. And if the Aes Sedai had taken part? Sure they probably would have gone mad too (and the breaking would have been worse), but in all likelihood the sealing would have been MUCH stronger so there would have been a lot longer before the DO had a chance to break free once again...

 

Was it the right approach? Was there any others? We dont know... perhaps once we see what Rand comes up with we might have some idea... but even then, Rand has the benefit of LTT's failure to draw from - something LTT himself didn't (I have previously argued that SOMETHING in this age really needs to be different from the previous ages in which the DO was sealed in order to make it feasible for this to truly be the last time it EVER occurs... Rand's memories themselves may actually BE that difference)

[Suttree]

And if the Aes Sedai had taken part? Sure they probably would have gone mad too (and the breaking would have been worse),

 

The sealing didn't have to be stronger, RJ has told us the plan worked except for this one side effect. Although I do think LTT took the only option aivalable to him, if the AS had taken part the world would already be destroyed. It almost happened with just Saidin tainted and with nothing to check op use of saidar and saidin? Come on...even if the breaking hadn't finished the world off the trolloc wars certainly would have.

[yoniy0]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted

Rather, if she went along with the exact plan then it would've happened. If she cooperated with him and come up with a better plan together, who knows.

[jwood01]

Thanks for clarifying all of this for me, i now definitely have a better understanding.

 

I wonder if LTT knows that Saidar would've been tainted too? The historian writing the "Strike at SG" doesn't know, so it would be possible that LTT/Rand doesn't know. On the other hand, LTT was a very knowledgeable channeler whereas the author of SaSG probably was not, so LTT/Rand may know that they cannot just do it the same way but with Saidar.

 

Seems like at this point for what happens at the FoM we are pretty much in the dark about Rand and Egwene's plans other than Rand wants to break the seals and Egwene does not. I really hope AMoL isn't Egwene and Rand debating and manuevering for 45 chapters with TG occurring only in the final chapter!

[jwood01]

If Letra hadn't opposed LTT then both sides would've been tainted

Rather, if she went along with the exact plan then it would've happened. If she cooperated with him and come up with a better plan together, who knows.

 

But that assumes that LTT was willing to compromise and come up with a better plan.

[DemandredFO]

I haven't read the BWB but I think the Shadow was close to winning and LTT's was the only plan. Letra wanted to wait and use the Cheodan Kal, but the access key factory was lost.