The Redemption thread

[Mr Hindley]

Nudging slightly back on topic - Teslyn is a nice example of a character set up to be nasty who ends up actually being really quite decent. It was also a bit of a surprise to find Faolain on the right side of things.

[Himiko]

This is true... then Compulsion still might be possibility...

 

Teslyn is a nice example of a character set up to be nasty who ends up actually being really quite decent. It was also a bit of a surprise to find Faolain on the right side of things.

 

Heee, I love Teslyn, she's one of my favourite minor characters, being one of the Aes Sedai who, at least some of the time, gives credit where credit is due, and has shown the ability to think on her feet.

 

I liked the introduction of capable, nice Reds, and people like Faolain. In fairness, I suppose you could argue that being one of the rebels didn't neccessarily make Faolain a good guy, there were plenty of Black Ajah in that group, and plenty of "good" AS in the Tower, but I liked the introduction of a character who was bitchy and rude, and snarky and jealous, without being some minion of evil. And I liked that not all Reds were man hating and incapable. It injected a bit of realism into the world as a whole, for me, having such characters.

[Aliriel]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

 

Balescream is always there. We just didn't not have anyone (in this case Grendal) to "describe" it. Some Balescreams are bigger than others.

 

If I'm remembering correctly as I dont have my books at the moment, they are on loan to my Uncle, there is no evidence of a Balescream after Rand blasted Rahvin, if there is, please quote it.

 

A.

 

 

Quote from whom? In case of Natrim's Barrow, Graendal, an Aes Sedai of AoL, a living witness describes the phenomenon. Did we get any POV like that when Rahvin was Balefired? in ToM, we actually see for first time how animals are DO's spy. Graendal uses a weave made by TP specifically for this purpose. Now all over the series we have heard that Raven's were DO's spy. How? It doesn't have to be spelled out in every book. Balescream is described as groaning of pattern (ripples passing through various threads) since Balefire basically creates a hole in pattern. How exactly this definition only applies in case of Natrim's Barrow?

 

A passage/quote from anyones POV, just because they didn't know it was called a Balescream doesn't mean they cant feel or see it's effects. Is there anything like that in the aftermath of Rahvin? eg, the "rippling waves" as the pattern fights to stay together, the "groan" of the pattern... anything that we know know is associated with a Balescream.

 

A.

[Wolf505]

 

A passage/quote from anyones POV, just because they didn't know it was called a Balescream doesn't mean they cant feel or see it's effects. Is there anything like that in the aftermath of Rahvin? eg, the "rippling waves" as the pattern fights to stay together, the "groan" of the pattern... anything that we know know is associated with a Balescream.

 

A.

 

I don't recall a mention of it, but Rahvin was Balefired in TAR, not the waking world, so that could've made a difference.

[thump]

One of my biggest complaints about RJ's writing (and BS's continuation of it) is the incessant need to provide unnecessary details about minor characters. We constantly get these overblown pictures of serving girls and village artisans and merchant guards. It gets exhausting sometimes to try to figure out which of the 43,561 characters is going to be significant enough to actually focus our attention on.

 

That being said....

 

One of the minor characters that I never expected to see again that actually popped up in a major moment of redemption was Noam. I was only a few pages ahead of Perrin in that particular realization--a really nice "oh-h-h-h-h-h, I-I-I get it" moment there. It was one of those times when a significant amount of warm, comfortable feeling came flowing back after re-claiming someone that I had thought had been lost forever.

 

It seemed like some piece of Perrin (the old Emond's Field Perrin) that had been taken away was returned to him. That last little block that was in his way finally fell. For books and books, Perrin had been whining about what the world wanted from him, what the Pattern wanted from him, what the Two Rivers folk wanted from him.... So much of it stemmed from this idea that the wolf had been forced upon him and some part of it had to be constantly kept at bay or else he would lose himself and be "taken over" like that poor wretch Noam. Finding that Noam had chosen the wolf, actively and consciously decided for himself to forsake the pain and solitude of humanity for the freedom and brotherhood of the wolf, reminded Perrin of the responsibility of self-determination in much the same way that Tam's words about fighting for a "why" did for Rand.

 

Noam's character in truth had never needed redemption--he had been right in his choice way back when we first met him. But the realization on the part of the reader (or at least this particular reader) that what we thought had been a lost soul had actually been free all along feels a lot like redemption to me.

[Glip]

One of my biggest complaints about RJ's writing (and BS's continuation of it) is the incessant need to provide unnecessary details about minor characters. We constantly get these overblown pictures of serving girls and village artisans and merchant guards. It gets exhausting sometimes to try to figure out which of the 43,561 characters is going to be significant enough to actually focus our attention on.

 

That being said....

 

One of the minor characters that I never expected to see again that actually popped up in a major moment of redemption was Noam. I was only a few pages ahead of Perrin in that particular realization--a really nice "oh-h-h-h-h-h, I-I-I get it" moment there. It was one of those times when a significant amount of warm, comfortable feeling came flowing back after re-claiming someone that I had thought had been lost forever.

 

It seemed like some piece of Perrin (the old Emond's Field Perrin) that had been taken away was returned to him. That last little block that was in his way finally fell. For books and books, Perrin had been whining about what the world wanted from him, what the Pattern wanted from him, what the Two Rivers folk wanted from him.... So much of it stemmed from this idea that the wolf had been forced upon him and some part of it had to be constantly kept at bay or else he would lose himself and be "taken over" like that poor wretch Noam. Finding that Noam had chosen the wolf, actively and consciously decided for himself to forsake the pain and solitude of humanity for the freedom and brotherhood of the wolf, reminded Perrin of the responsibility of self-determination in much the same way that Tam's words about fighting for a "why" did for Rand.

 

Noam's character in truth had never needed redemption--he had been right in his choice way back when we first met him. But the realization on the part of the reader (or at least this particular reader) that what we thought had been a lost soul had actually been free all along feels a lot like redemption to me.

 

Beautifully stated and I for one second that emotion

The whole passage was another big redemption for Perrin as a character as well, through book and books of angst he finally gets the point...

[Smittyphi]

Bringing us back on topic,

[ Sure, Gawyn as a future First Prince of the Sword has been trained to obey the Daughter-Heir, but he's also been taught that it's his role to stand up to her when necessary (within reason, of course). As Morgase said in EOTW "You must learn not only to obey your sister, but at the same time to be counterweight for her against disaster." That's one of the reasons it's hard for Gawyn to accept Egwene's insistence on complete and blind obedience without question - it's very different from the role he's been trained to take over one day.

This

 

And, might I add, it's a good thing he listened to his instincts and to Morgase's teachings. Dead Egwene, Mesaana taking over the tower.

 

Nynaeve - breaking block and marrying Lan

 

Mat - After being healed and whipping the "G" boys

 

Perrin - Helping the Children of Light.

[Nerthus]

I really thought and hoped that Gawyn would die wounded in Egwenes hands after fighting off the assassins. That would be the perfect love story.

 

He would think Egwene might be allready dead, protecting her body til the end, and finding Egwene to be alive in the last breath of life.

 

That would have given a huge impact on Egwenes life and role as amyrlin also. And it would have given the series some more realism instead of all this good-guy-super-hero-stuff we read in every book.

[Zhipp]

I thought Nynaeve's redeeming moment was not becoming a blubbering idiot when she met Egwene in ToM.(or was that TGS?) I had stopped liking Nynaeve when she became retarded, but apparently she finally recovered from her stupidity.

 

Rand is easy, Veins of Gold...or maybe the ToM prologue. One of those, though.

 

Mat, pwning Galad and Gawyn in TDR, that was enough to make me forgive most of his stupidity from the first 2 books.

 

Perrin, probably Chapter 16 of ToM, when he told Faile about all of his...issues. I'd gotten so sick of all the secrets in the series that it was a breath of fresh air to see some flaming honesty for a change.

Faile, although I never really hated her, was probably that same chapter. heh, either that, or killing the Prophet..

 

Egwene....when...she...accepted punishment from the Wise ones...I guess?

 

Elayne, this quote pretty much sums it up.

"I mean, I intend to be more careful. Maybe you're right, and the viewing isn't a perfect guarantee. It certainly didn't stop me from panicking

when I felt a real danger."

She didn't even do anything stupid and reckless for the rest of the book. Unless the meeting with Perrin counts, but I'll just ignore that for now.

 

Semirhage, escaping from captivity...being rescued, and slipping the male A'dam around Rands neck. yes...yeeesssss. At least one of the forsaken isn't completely incompetent. Just mostly.

 

Last, and definitely least, Gawyn. Finally forgiving Rand, but, stupid bastard that he is, he had to go and un-redeem himself later in the book.

[rand4747]

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

 

He used a sa angreal to attack the hollow, going by descriptions in the books of sa angreal he was probably holdings hundreds of times more power than he normally would have.

 

The screen is probably barely noticable normally, but what Rand did there was insane, it was done with the most powerfull sa angreal ever whereas against Rahvin it was not, and even though his full strength it was still considerably weaker.

[Justanotherfacet]

How about everyone favorite non-darkfriend? Verin? I mean it wasn't so much redemption from dislike to like - instead from a relatively obscure character i didn't give two shits about to one of the all time biggest badasses of the series.

[anotherfingolfin]

I really thought and hoped that Gawyn would die wounded in Egwenes hands after fighting off the assassins. That would be the perfect love story.

 

I really hoped that too. Not because of the love story bit though. My opinion on this love story as most of the others in the series are along the lines of stupid/implausible/ill-developed/ill-concieved. Let's be honest, all these superfluous love entanglements are far from the high point of RJ's writing.

 

That said, it would have been nice to see Gawyn die. I mean, in my mind that's probably the only way the idiot could be redeemed. And really, he's not that important a character that he needs goddamn plot armour.

 

The revelation that his irrational hate for Rand stemmed largely from simple jealousy, and contempt that a lowly shepard could achieve such seriously made his character worse. I mean, I understand that his realistaion was supposed to mitigate everything, but the scene just made me loathe him even more.

[thump]

Truthfully, having Gawyn die on Egwene's floor would have been a really nice tendency-breaker. It would have introduced a new sense of peril for some of the second-tier characters. "Hey, if Gawyn can die, than some of these other guys aren't exactly safe either." Something like that.

 

Plus, I think his death protecting Egwene while she is away in TAR would do wonders for Egwene herself. It would sadden her and darken her and... well, humanize her a bit--not to mention set up a delicious confrontation when Egwene and Fortuona come face to face--Rrrowl, phft phft, Rrrow-w-w-w-lll!!!

 

In addition, it would probably help to elevate Gawyn to the point where he is seen more as a flawed hero rather than as a hard-headed buttmunch with a superiority complex.

 

Oh well. Opportunity missed there. Coulda been a real nice touch.

[Nygma]

My redeemed list:

 

Mat, of course. He was pretty selfish and nasty with the dagger but once he was broken from its grip he became a pretty awesome character.

Teslyn grew on me, too.

Darlin was pretty awesome. First saw him as a sneering lord promising to kill Mat, then he defies the Dragon for his homeland, accepts a crown from him, and, while he's loyal to Rand, is still not going to be his yes man.

Semirhage was a bit of a roller coaster. Started out not liking her, but then she tore up the Seanchan court which was pretty badass and made a daring attack on Rand. But then my new admiration for her took a dive when she caved in and started groveling after one spanking. Lame.

Nynaeve had her low points in the middle of the series, but has been climbing relentlessly to new heights since.

 

 

My anti-redeemed list is at least as long:

 

Talmanes - went downhill with Sanderson's interpretation

Egwene - started out pretty bitchy and began running downhill, with occasional bumps of awesomeness on the way down.

Gawyn - started out as a dull character and became King of the Ridiculously Prejudiced before trading that crown for Emperor of the Whipped.

Perrin - started out as one of my favorite characters, but constant angst and introspection since then have sent him on a steady, shallow slope down.

Min - started out ok, but she's too clingly. When she's at her most independent is when she's at her most stupid; and *still* clingy. "I WILL come with you to a probable trap!!! Oops, sorry about the hand."

[solarz]

I don't know why people rail on Perrin so much. So it took him a long time to come to terms with his destiny. So what? How long did it take Rand or Mat to do the same?

 

I think people are being unfair. Being a King/General might sound very cool in a book, but I wouldn't want that kind of life for real, especially since I will be forced into war almost constantly and will very likely see all of my friends die, due to my decisions no less.

 

Perrin just wants to live in peace with his wife. He didn't want to see the world, like Mat, and he wasn't a channeler, like Rand. He was always the most "ordinary" of the three, and he saw himself that way as well.

 

Why is it difficult for people to understand that Perrin would fight so hard to live a normal, happy life?

[Zentari]

I don't know why people rail on Perrin so much. So it took him a long time to come to terms with his destiny. So what? How long did it take Rand or Mat to do the same?

 

I think people are being unfair. Being a King/General might sound very cool in a book, but I wouldn't want that kind of life for real, especially since I will be forced into war almost constantly and will very likely see all of my friends die, due to my decisions no less.

 

Perrin just wants to live in peace with his wife. He didn't want to see the world, like Mat, and he wasn't a channeler, like Rand. He was always the most "ordinary" of the three, and he saw himself that way as well.

 

Why is it difficult for people to understand that Perrin would fight so hard to live a normal, happy life?

Because he whined about it all along. Mat and Rand complained a whole less more while being more awesome.

 

This is as simple as it gets.If you want to get down on it seriously, it would be because that storyline was dragged on wayyyyy to long while what perrin had to do was blatantly obvious: man the **** up. Mat got his brain turned into a mix and Rand went KINDA (/understatement) insane and they still did not lament their fate at every possible minute .