The Redemption thread

[Glip]

I'm in the middle of a re-listening of the audiobook of ToM.

This morning on my one hour bike-ride to work I was struck again by the beauty of the chapters "A Making" and "An unexpected ally".

So much epic stuff happens in these two chapters:

1) the forging of a unique weapon

2) the 'epiphany' of Perrin about leadership

3) the build-up to a battle with tension as to Perrins intentions for the Whitecloaks

4) a truly epic 'more melee than OP'-battle with well-described view of the tactics

5) some major characters motives change

 

Now ofcourse there are more points I could add to the list, but I'll stop at 5. Because in my humble opinion these two chapters actually focus around the motives of some of the major characters in these books. And how beautifully written!

The internal dialogue of both Perrin and Galad are written in such a way that their reasoning and final outcome of their reasoning is something I feel very much satisfied with.

Perhaps it is because Perrin has redeemed his emo/angst image. Galad redeemed his stuck-up/black-white view of the world.

Hell, even Bornhald redeemed himself! And I guess we don't have to worry about the Berelain/Faile thing anymore.

 

Now, as there are so many 'certain'-character-bashing-threads, how about we make this thread the Redemption thread.

What were your favorite redemptions of a character you didn't like? An exact moment? In the course of a book?

 

Ingtar anyone?

[Terez]

You know, it's funny, cause after TOM at first people were gushing about Gawyn had redeemed himself, but now people are back to hating on him again because he submitted to his woman's authoritay.

[Glip]

You know, it's funny, cause after TOM at first people were gushing about Gawyn had redeemed himself, but now people are back to hating on him again because he submitted to his woman's authoritay.

 

I think Gawyn is a complex character to relate to. For me, I would give anything to protect my wife and kids, Gawyns actions as a protector against his girls wishes made him more likeable, especially kicking serious ass doing so. As for his submission to Egwenes will, I think I can even relate to that, seeing as he has a role in the way people view Egwene and he wants to protect that too.

 

For me Gawyn still has redeemed himself... let's see if that is still justified after AMoL for I fear his opinion of Rand might 'unredeem' him in the end.

[Zentari]

You know, it's funny, cause after TOM at first people were gushing about Gawyn had redeemed himself, but now people are back to hating on him again because he submitted to his woman's authoritay.

The scene were he mutters "But I disobeyed you" as he lies bleeding to death is by far one of the most pathetic ever.He comes across as a doormat in that scene.

[Glip]

You know, it's funny, cause after TOM at first people were gushing about Gawyn had redeemed himself, but now people are back to hating on him again because he submitted to his woman's authoritay.

The scene were he mutters "But I disobeyed you" as he lies bleeding to death is by far one of the most pathetic ever.He comes across as a doormat in that scene.

 

...although offing multiple super ninja assassins, to quote Leigh Butler:

And I’m pretty sure there’s a rule somewhere that says you get at least one Get Off The Shit List Free card for defeating multiple super ninja assassins. And if there isn’t one, I just invented it. So There.

[b3arz3rg3r]

You know, it's funny, cause after TOM at first people were gushing about Gawyn had redeemed himself, but now people are back to hating on him again because he submitted to his woman's authoritay.

The scene were he mutters "But I disobeyed you" as he lies bleeding to death is by far one of the most pathetic ever.He comes across as a doormat in that scene.

 

That's cause he is a doormat. He was raised to be a doormat to Elayne and trained to be a doormat as a Warder to some Aes Sedai, so it shouldn't surprise anyone he succeeded.

[Glip]

I recall not liking Moiraine untill she fought Lanfear. After that she became the "legend about to return". Strange, that even in rereads that one action redeemed her meddling in business and pushing Rand.

 

Come to think of it, I used to hate Siuan really bad... I guess her stilling did do her some good.

[Elvira_Sedai]

I'd never seriously hate any major character , but Mat was my least favourite until he recognize that sometimes women can do their own job without being rescued every day . I mean his final scene in Salidar , where he knelt to Egwene in front of the whole Band .

[DigitalSoul]

Nynaeve, i started likeing her in the two last books, used to dislike her alot in the earlier books!

[David Selig]

I'd never seriously hate any major character , but Mat was my least favourite until he recognize that sometimes women can do their own job without being rescued every day . I mean his final scene in Salidar , where he knelt to Egwene in front of the whole Band .

He only did that because he was annoyed the other Aes Sedai were being mean to a woman from Two Rivers. He still was in full "All women need saving" mode, as evidenced by the fact she left instructions for Talmanes to do exactly that with Egwene and his later actions in Ebou Dar.

 

As for Perrin, it would take an awful lot more than a magic hammer and a long overdue epiphany about leadership to redeem him in my eyes. At least he finally accepted that since the Pattern itself has chosen for a leader and everyone around him thinks that's a great idea, he should stop whining and try to do his best in that role. Too bad it took him ages for such an obvious conclusion.

 

I like Gawyn a lot more now, he finally showed a working brain and gave up on the absolutely moronic "I have to kill the saviour of the world because of a rumour" idea.

 

That's cause he is a doormat. He was raised to be a doormat to Elayne

I don't think that's correct. Sure, Gawyn as a future First Prince of the Sword has been trained to obey the Daughter-Heir, but he's also been taught that it's his role to stand up to her when necessary (within reason, of course). As Morgase said in EOTW "You must learn not only to obey your sister, but at the same time to be counterweight for her against disaster." That's one of the reasons it's hard for Gawyn to accept Egwene's insistence on complete and blind obedience without question - it's very different from the role he's been trained to take over one day.

[Aliriel]

I'd never seriously hate any major character , but Mat was my least favourite until he recognize that sometimes women can do their own job without being rescued every day . I mean his final scene in Salidar , where he knelt to Egwene in front of the whole Band .

He only did that because he was annoyed the other Aes Sedai were being mean to a woman from Two Rivers. He still was in full "All women need saving" mode, as evidenced by the fact she left instructions for Talmanes to do exactly that with Egwene and his later actions in Ebou Dar.

 

As for Perrin, it would take an awful lot more than a magic hammer and a long overdue epiphany about leadership to redeem him in my eyes. At least he finally accepted that since the Pattern itself has chosen for a leader and everyone around him thinks that's a great idea, he should stop whining and try to do his best in that role. Too bad it took him ages for such an obvious conclusion.

 

I like Gawyn a lot more now, he finally showed a working brain and gave up on the absolutely moronic "I have to kill the saviour of the world because of a rumour" idea.

 

That's cause he is a doormat. He was raised to be a doormat to Elayne

I don't think that's correct. Sure, Gawyn as a future First Prince of the Sword has been trained to obey the Daughter-Heir, but he's also been taught that it's his role to stand up to her when necessary (within reason, of course). As Morgase said in EOTW "You must learn not only to obey your sister, but at the same time to be counterweight for her against disaster." That's one of the reasons it's hard for Gawyn to accept Egwene's insistence on complete and blind obedience without question - it's very different from the role he's been trained to take over one day.

 

I agree fully.

Also with his Warder training something similar to this would have been ingrained as well. How many times have we heard an AS blabbing on about how their Warder has pulled them not only out of the fire, but out of the frying pan aswell at the risk of his own life because he thought she was in serious danger even if she did not?

 

TBH, Gwayn isn't one of my favourite characters, not that I hate any of them, but in TOM he's finally realised what all those different aspects of his training and tutorlidge actually means. To let her have her way untill she steps over the line then pull her back as roughly as possible while making it very clear that she went too far... He was just a little too busy fighting to stay alive on Eggy's bedroom floor to do the pulling and yelling.

 

A.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't think that's correct. Sure, Gawyn as a future First Prince of the Sword has been trained to obey the Daughter-Heir, but he's also been taught that it's his role to stand up to her when necessary (within reason, of course). As Morgase said in EOTW "You must learn not only to obey your sister, but at the same time to be counterweight for her against disaster." That's one of the reasons it's hard for Gawyn to accept Egwene's insistence on complete and blind obedience without question - it's very different from the role he's been trained to take over one day.

 

Morgase may have wanted him to learn that lesson, but you quote the perfect example which shows that he never really did. What made it hard for Gawyn to accept Egwene's complete domination were the last vestiges of his self-respect.

[rand4747]

Moiraine was always a good aes sedai, no selfishness or power hungry, she worked for the pattern essentially and not for herself. Sure she was still manipulative and all that sometimes but she did it all for good intentions.

 

Even Cadsuane does, although shes annoying as anything still. Nynaeve learned mostly aswell. Whereas some people like Egwene only think for their own position, Elayne does that alot aswell, although not always.

 

btw yes I did say Cadsuane is not too bad. :P

 

Now back to Gawyn he is a bit of a floor mat who can also be quite unreasonable, sure the aes sedai did not help while he was in the tower by not telling him anything which is a massive failing of the aes sedai in general.

 

My thought though is you should not be a partner and also an underling to someone, it just never works out, Nynaeves thing of she is in command in public and Lan in private is an ok compromise but still not great. Its still likely to be if the superior one doesn't like you doing something even when nothing to do with work they will make you not do it still, or they make you do things and if you don't then there is a problem that will appear at "work".

 

Also especially with aes sedai and warders, you dont get time off your always working. Even when sleeping or anything its because they let you.

[DemandredFO]

Perrin got himself a GOTSL card, Gawyn never can and neither can Egwene. I said this in another thread everyone is ready for TG but Egwene. She needs an epiphany or something or lot's of AS and others are going to die because she thinks she knows better than Rand Sedai, Matt, Bryne, and who knows who else.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

You know, it's funny, cause after TOM at first people were gushing about Gawyn had redeemed himself, but now people are back to hating on him again because he submitted to his woman's authoritay.

 

I've never really disliked Gawyn. In fact, the only thing I can't stand about him is his devotion to Eggy, and the silly "I must kill the Dragon" business. On the other hand, I found Mat to be a complete jackass for most of the first four books. At some point I quit disliking him and enjoyed his POVs as comic relief, sort of the dwarf of the series. Then, to my surprise, I came to actually like the character.

[Goldstar]

TBH, as far as Egwene goes, sure, she's become extremely annoying and whatever, but as far as the stuff against the breaking of the seals, I have a strange feeling that "Halima" may have left behind some kind of compulsion regarding something along those lines. However, can compulsion weaves last after the user's death?

[Himiko]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

[Zentari]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

[Kahsm]

I personally like Egwene, at least since she was kidnapped and started going all bad ass. I don't believe she's selfish and looking for her own power. The White Tower needs to be whole in order for them to succeed. I don't think even Rand would disagree with that. Moiraine certainly wouldn't, so I don't see how some will praise Moir then trash Egwene.

 

She has started to break down many of the walls that made the tower seem separate from the world, elitist, and secluded: by brining in _any_ woman who wants to channel and allowing the bonding of Asha'man. I suspect she'll start marrying warders, and possibly having children. As it's something she is clearly interested in, and it would solve the Channeler gene issue. And there are many other theories of inclusive deeds she will undertake. For example, she may welcome the Black Tower into the White Tower.

 

She talks a big cocky game because that's what the White Tower requires of their Amyrlin. Even that may change, over time. She's on the right track to be a great leader. I think some feel everyone should kneel to Rand, and that's what the epiphanies are about. Well Egwene already had her's. It was about enduring. "What must be endured can be endured." - Cadsuane.

 

I'll wait and see how far she goes in standing against Rand's plan before I condemn her. She's earned the benefit of the doubt in the past few books.

[Aliriel]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

[Zentari]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

Sanderson has discussed a few times how far back he thinks it's possible to burn a thread and it's pretty clear he considers it nearly impossible to burn a thread going back months or a year.So unless the thing was in a week or two, it won't be unraveled.

 

Here's the transcript if I'm not mistaken.

 

Scroll down to the part were they are discussing how far back can it turn.

[WhiskyJack]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

 

Balescream is always there. We just didn't not have anyone (in this case Grendal) to "describe" it. Some Balescreams are bigger than others.

[Aliriel]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

 

Balescream is always there. We just didn't not have anyone (in this case Grendal) to "describe" it. Some Balescreams are bigger than others.

 

If I'm remembering correctly as I dont have my books at the moment, they are on loan to my Uncle, there is no evidence of a Balescream after Rand blasted Rahvin, if there is, please quote it.

 

A.

[David Selig]

Weeks and months is really stretching it. Sure, that was an awful lot of balefire, but it erased a few days at most IMO. Remember that Moiraine told Rand that she's capable of erasing only seconds while using all of her strength in the Power. When Rand killed Rahvin, he used his full strength and the fat man to create"thicker than a man" stream of balefire and it still erased only half an hour or so.

[WhiskyJack]

No, I don't believe they can- that was why Rand had that man (whose name I have annoyingly forgotten, massive fail on my part) go to Graendal and have Compulsion laid on him- so that when he destroyed her hideout, he will know that she is dead. Unfortunately, (TOM SPOILER) it was Aran'gar and Delana who put Compulsion on him, and they were killed in the destruction, rather than Graendal- the weaves disappeared. Thus, if Egwene's actions were due to compulsion laid on her by Halima, they would have vanished by the time Rand came to Tar Valon to outline his plan.

That is not true.Balefire unravels up to a certain point depending on the amount of power used, it does not negate all effects completely.

 

On the other hand, if Eg is under some sort of compulsion it must be a very subtle sort to not affect her leadership abilities.

 

And how much of the Power would Rand need to use in destroying the fortress (Bartrims Hollow I think?) and cause everyone to see little more than a huge bar of bright white? Surely enough to erase weeks if not months of threads, remember, that one action cause an extreamely powerful Balescream.

In comparison, when he Balefired Ravhin he once again used a massive amount of power, if not all he could draw, yet no Balescream.

 

A.

 

Balescream is always there. We just didn't not have anyone (in this case Grendal) to "describe" it. Some Balescreams are bigger than others.

 

If I'm remembering correctly as I dont have my books at the moment, they are on loan to my Uncle, there is no evidence of a Balescream after Rand blasted Rahvin, if there is, please quote it.

 

A.

 

 

Quote from whom? In case of Natrim's Barrow, Graendal, an Aes Sedai of AoL, a living witness describes the phenomenon. Did we get any POV like that when Rahvin was Balefired? in ToM, we actually see for first time how animals are DO's spy. Graendal uses a weave made by TP specifically for this purpose. Now all over the series we have heard that Raven's were DO's spy. How? It doesn't have to be spelled out in every book. Balescream is described as groaning of pattern (ripples passing through various threads) since Balefire basically creates a hole in pattern. How exactly this definition only applies in case of Natrim's Barrow?