She vowed to win

[Glip]

Dragonmount needs to make its own version of Godwin's Law something like "Once a thread mentions Egwene the probability of the thread turning into an Egwene bashing thread approaches 1". Maybe someone could make a more eloquent version of this.

 

I'm afraid you're absolutely right. In fact, specifically, "As any online discussion on Dragonmount grows longer, the probability of a verbal assault on the character Egwene approaches 1"

 

I think this might become a sig

[aamornn]

I think the bigger problem is that other characters don't behave naturally around her. Her rivals and opponents were dumbed down to a ridiculous level and Siuan turned into Kanye West ("Egwene is the best Amyrlin OF ALL TIME") to keep readers from thinking that maybe Siuan should have gotten her old job back. Given how many pages were devoted to Egwene's rise to Amyrlin, I honestly wish I could have liked it more, but many of the scenes were cringe-worthy to me, especially on rereads.

 

snip

 

Anyway, I don't think Egwene was a Mary Sue prior to becoming Amyrlin, but she definitely is one now. Other characters (most notably Rand and Mat) have their moments of Sueness, but at least they have the excuse of being ta'veren. When Mat makes a bargain with the Sea Folk in ACoS, everyone--Sea Folk included--understands it's his ta'veren powers at work and not Mat himself who is capable of besting people who've spent their entire lives honing their bargaining skills. It's like Egwene was suddenly given the same kind of ta'veren powers without actually being ta'veren.

 

Could you elaborate on this a little? It's been a while since I've read the newer books, so I'm not recalling examples to mind as well. I can only think of one example where I really felt like Egwene's opponent(s) were acting unusually thick-headed and that (I believe) was in ToM, so I won't give details (ch. 27). Even in that case, I think some of my dislike for that scene is just the writing style.

 

For the early stuff (Salidar, after she gets there), I think a lot of the credit goes to Siuane. She still does a lot of behind-the-scenes string pulling and a lot of overt instructing (not just the histories either). It's not much different than what Rand was doing (with Thom's help) in Tear in TSR, and that wasn't even chalked up to Ta'vereness.

 

As for the later Egwene scenes (in the tower), I don't see Egwene doing a whole lot there that's special. The Aes'Sedai in the tower are generally acting in ways they don't want to act. People in a mob and people on either side of a debate are often much less rational than usual and act worse than they normally would. In a situation like that, it doesn't actually take much to get people to revert back to form, so long as you can break them out of their mob mentality (which is exactly what Egwene does by approaching them individually).

 

I will admit some of the talking to the AS in the last few books worked a little too well (even for me!), but I guess I'm willing to forgive because a new author has been tasked with quickly wrapping up a lot of loose ends, and there just isn't space for all the proper arguments Egwene should have made.

[KefkaPalazzo]

You really think that? That the ultimate purpose of her badassery in Tel'aran'rhiod was to defeat Mesaana?

 

Yes.

 

Perrin already showed her that while she may be incredibly powerful for a 'human' dreamwalker, she'll still never be as powerful as a wolf (or wolfbrother), to whom T'A'R is more or less a natural state for them. Egwyne will never match or equal Perrin (or at least I hope not, she's Mary Sue enough already), so I think that defeating Mesaana in the way that she did will probably be her T'A'R peak.

 

And am I the only one who thinks if would have been awesome if she had "vowed to win"? She could have been an ancestor/descendant of Charlie Sheen!

I disagree. (except about the Charlie Sheen part) I think that the defeat of Mesaana had more to do with Egwene's Amyrlin persona than her skill as a dreamwalker. I think that she could get stronger in TAR, up to Perrin's level.

 

However, they both have their strengths and weaknesses in TAR. Perrin can get hurt by weapons because he accepts them as real in TAR, such as in his fight with Slayer. The Power won't touch him because he thinks that "it's just a weave." Egwene has the opposite problem. OP attacks are real to her, while weapons and material things aren't.

[White_star]

But it shouldn't be another Egwene-bashing thread, should it?

 

I sincerely hoped it wouldn't degrade to that. Not that I'm against it mind you

But, it seams objectivity and speaking about a favorite(or not) character do not mix.

 

 

 

Dragonmount needs to make its own version of Godwin's Law something like "Once a thread mentions Egwene the probability of the thread turning into an Egwene bashing thread approaches 1". Maybe someone could make a more eloquent version of this.

It does seam that way.

[Himiko]

I tend to agree that Mesaana was her "main purpose" in T'A'R. I honestly don't see Egwene and Lanfear going head to head, Lanfear's too tied up in Rand's story for that. Lanfear and Rand, yes, Lanfear and Moiraine, possibly, but if they're setting up major battles for the Last Battle, and major opponents for the main characters, and it feels to me like they are, then I don't see any of the currently active Forsaken being set up as a major opponent for Egwene. I could be wrong, I know Lanfear's supposed to be skilled in T'A'R, but not really feeling it, TBH. I mean, Moghedien's skilled in T'A'R, too- more skilled, if I remember correctly? Could be wrong on that... but anyway, I think its more likely that Nynaeve will face Moghedien.

 

Mesaana, on the other hand, was the Forsaken that is the most directly pitted against Egwene, she was actually inside the White Tower, a direct threat to the women Egwene leads, and to Egwene herself. I always thought they would be a pair that would come to blows in the last book, but then, perhaps BS/RJ were getting it out ofthe way before the last battle so that Egwene can concentrate more on being the Amyrlin? I see Egwene as perhaps having more to do with whatever deal is made with the Seanchan, or just in a role of leader to the Aes Sedai as they battle, perhaps against channelers for the dark side?

 

But yeah, back on topic from who will fight who XD, as far as the dreamwalking goes, it disturbs me. Yes, Rand is being driven mad by the taint, you could argue that spying on him could be excused by wanting to prevent him from doing anything stupid but spying on dreams for fun, curiosity, whatever, is a scummy thing to do, and I can think of very few instances where Wise Ones or their apprentices would be justified in using it. One aspect of the powers in the Wheel of Time that makes me want to uncontrollably bitchslap anyone using it. Bitchslap with a club.

[sandoz12]

Dragonmount needs to make its own version of Godwin's Law something like "Once a thread mentions Egwene the probability of the thread turning into an Egwene bashing thread approaches 1". Maybe someone could make a more eloquent version of this.

 

I'm afraid you're absolutely right. In fact, specifically, "As any online discussion on Dragonmount grows longer, the probability of a verbal assault on the character Egwene approaches 1"

 

I think this might become a sig

Yep. Your version is nicer. Good idea about making it a sig.

[Guest PiotrekS]

You really think that? That the ultimate purpose of her badassery in Tel'aran'rhiod was to defeat Mesaana?

 

Yes, after all the duel with Mesaana was a major fight scene and one of the climaxes in ToM, and also a crowning moment for several-books-long arc of uniting and cleansing the White Tower by Egwene. So it isn't a trivial thing.

 

I'm a little biased though, because I would absolutely hate to read about Egwene saving Rand in MoL or having a crucial role in the Last Battle (apart from being the Amyrlin and the important political leader), be it fighting Lanfear, ripping Rand's soul out of TAR or anything very important like that...So I'm simply focusing on the option that is more pleasant for me to contemplate.

[Durinax]

actually for a direct conflict I could see rand vs egwene, and not just a verbal one but an actual fight type deal, the strain between them has been built up for too long for it not too happen imo. in fact we see egwene actually 'jump' rand to stop him from doing what she thought was foolish (albeit early in the series). and from her POV's we see that she thinks this is beyond foolish, so I think its goign to escalate.

 

add to the fact that RJ liked to include many 'shades of gray'

[Jon Paul]

actually for a direct conflict I could see rand vs egwene, and not just a verbal one but an actual fight type deal, the strain between them has been built up for too long for it not too happen imo.

 

That fight would last all of one paragraph. It would serve no purpose. Rand, before even being trained by Asmo, could handle both Egwene and Elayne like babies. Rand Sedai? It'd be over before she could blink.

[Jon Paul]

actually for a direct conflict I could see rand vs egwene, and not just a verbal one but an actual fight type deal, the strain between them has been built up for too long for it not too happen imo.

 

That fight would last all of one paragraph. It would serve no purpose. Rand, before even being trained by Asmo, could handle both Egwene and Elayne like babies. Rand Sedai? It'd be over before she could blink.

[sleepinghour]

actually for a direct conflict I could see rand vs egwene, and not just a verbal one but an actual fight type deal, the strain between them has been built up for too long for it not too happen imo.

 

That fight would last all of one paragraph. It would serve no purpose. Rand, before even being trained by Asmo, could handle both Egwene and Elayne like babies. Rand Sedai? It'd be over before she could blink.

There will be heated words at the Field of Merrilor for sure, but I don't think it will come to an actual fight. Theoretically, though...should Egwene deem it necessary to forcibly prevent Rand from breaking the seals, there are other ways to do that besides attacking him with the Power. She would lose in a direct confrontation unless she had the fluted rod sa'angreal or managed to catch him by surprise. In T'A'R however, he would at least in some ways be weaker than Egwene or Perrin, and there are ways to pull someone into T'A'R against his or her will. As Egwene herself points out in CoT:

 

Rand's dreams were always shielded, and she feared he might know when she tried to peek in. The shield would keep her from seeing anything, anyway. A pity she could not tell where someone was from their dreams; two points of light could be side-by-side here, and the dreamers a thousand miles apart. Gawyn's dreams tugged at her, and she fled. His dreams held their own dangers, not least because part of her wanted very much to sink into them. Nynaeve's dreams gave her pause, and the desire to put the fear of the Light into the fool woman, but Nynaeve had managed to ignore her so far, and Egwene would not sink to pulling her into Tel'aran'rhiod against her will. That was the sort of thing the Forsaken did. It was a temptation, though.

[b3arz3rg3r]

actually for a direct conflict I could see rand vs egwene, and not just a verbal one but an actual fight type deal, the strain between them has been built up for too long for it not too happen imo.

 

That fight would last all of one paragraph. It would serve no purpose. Rand, before even being trained by Asmo, could handle both Egwene and Elayne like babies. Rand Sedai? It'd be over before she could blink.

There will be heated words at the Field of Merrilor for sure, but I don't think it will come to an actual fight. Theoretically, though...should Egwene deem it necessary to forcibly prevent Rand from breaking the seals, there are other ways to do that besides attacking him with the Power. She would lose in a direct confrontation unless she had the fluted rod sa'angreal or managed to catch him by surprise. In T'A'R however, he would at least in some ways be weaker than Egwene or Perrin, and there are ways to pull someone into T'A'R against his or her will. As Egwene herself points out in CoT:

 

Rand's dreams were always shielded, and she feared he might know when she tried to peek in. The shield would keep her from seeing anything, anyway. A pity she could not tell where someone was from their dreams; two points of light could be side-by-side here, and the dreamers a thousand miles apart. Gawyn's dreams tugged at her, and she fled. His dreams held their own dangers, not least because part of her wanted very much to sink into them. Nynaeve's dreams gave her pause, and the desire to put the fear of the Light into the fool woman, but Nynaeve had managed to ignore her so far, and Egwene would not sink to pulling her into Tel'aran'rhiod against her will. That was the sort of thing the Forsaken did. It was a temptation, though.

 

 

I have my doubts whether Egwene could pull that off. Rand with LTT integrated within him and perhaps even before has almost certainly wards on his dreams made from sterner stuff than those of the average modern Aes Sedai. It is likely those wards would prevent him from being dragged into TAR against his will.

[sleepinghour]

I have my doubts whether Egwene could pull that off. Rand with LTT integrated within him and perhaps even before has almost certainly wards on his dreams made from sterner stuff than those of the average modern Aes Sedai. It is likely those wards would prevent him from being dragged into TAR against his will.

Cyndane was still able to get into his dreams at the end of ToM (which may or may not have been due to Moridin's connection with Rand). So I wouldn't completely rule out that Rand could be attacked through his dreams.

 

Either way, he would still have his ta'veren powers in T'A'R, should someone manage to pull him in. All I'm saying is that Rand is not invincible and could be taken down under the right circumstances (as we've seen many times in the books). If I were Rand, I would also stay clear of any minty tea served at the FoM.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I have my doubts whether Egwene could pull that off. Rand with LTT integrated within him and perhaps even before has almost certainly wards on his dreams made from sterner stuff than those of the average modern Aes Sedai. It is likely those wards would prevent him from being dragged into TAR against his will.

Cyndane was still able to get into his dreams at the end of ToM (which may or may not have been due to Moridin's connection with Rand). So I wouldn't completely rule out that Rand could be attacked through his dreams.

 

Either way, he would still have his ta'veren powers in T'A'R, should someone manage to pull him in. All I'm saying is that Rand is not invincible and could be taken down under the right circumstances (as we've seen many times in the books). If I were Rand, I would also stay clear of any minty tea served at the FoM.

 

Did she really fully enter his dreams? I know he thinks she did, but she didn't appear in that valley in the mountains of mist. Rand had to go to her in that unknown black cavern which I doubt is part of his dream. It looks more like either it's part of her dreamworld or of TAR and not his. Afterall if it was his dream he could have just said "and let there be light" instead of stumbling around in the darkness.

 

Here's an idea. Lanfear used "need" to find Rand. We know that a strong need can make TAR bring you to whatever you require to accomplish your goal even if you have no idea what it is. That's how the bowl of winds was found. Lanfear out of sheer desperation used "need" to bring her to the one who could offer her salvation, Rand. Rand felt the call and TAR brought him to her.

[sleepinghour]

Here's an idea. Lanfear used "need" to find Rand. We know that a strong need can make TAR bring you to whatever you require to accomplish your goal even if you have no idea what it is. That's how the bowl of winds was found. Lanfear out of sheer desperation used "need" to bring her to the one who could offer her salvation, Rand. Rand felt the call and TAR brought him to her.

Interesting theory... I hadn't thought of that. My first thought when reading that scene was that it was a trap set up by Moridin and the Rand-Moridin connection somehow had been used to get Cyndane into his dreams. However, rereading her bio from the guidebook, it wouldn't surprise me if she managed to get in on her own and is not as much of a victim as Rand thinks she is. She used T'A'R as her battlefield in the Age of Legends:

 

She alone of the Forsaken chose her own name, claiming the territory of the World of Dreams—Tel'aran'rhiod—and other people's dreams as her domain.

 

Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Wolf505]

In T'A'R however, he would at least in some ways be weaker than Egwene or Perrin, and there are ways to pull someone into T'A'R against his or her will. As Egwene herself points out in CoT:

 

We don't know that for sure because we don't know how powerful Lews Therin was in TAR. The only times we've seen Rand in the world of dreams was in the flesh when he fought Ishamael and later Rahvin and he came out on top in both situations. All the Forsaken have some mastery of TAR so it's a fair assumption that LTT did too. I think if Egwene did meet Rand in TAR in some sort of confrontation she might be in for a nasty surprise. This is pure conjecture though since I'm pretty sure this won't happen.

 

I have to say I'm liking the theory of Lanfear/Mieren/Cyndane using Need to contact Rand in TAR. It makes sense, especially if she really is trying for redemption (which I think would be awesome). I think having at least one of the Forsaken turn back to the Light would be pretty cool (Asmo doesn't count since he had no choice). How many times have we heard the line "no one can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot return to the Light?"

[Elan Tedronai]

rand got help from nynaeve in the rahvin fight. rand was getting ass whooped.

[Wolf505]

rand got help from nynaeve in the rahvin fight. rand was getting ass whooped.

 

He also had absolutely no training at that point and was going by instinct and guesswork. With his full knowledge we don't know what he could be capable of.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think that LTT was reasonably good in TAR, but it wasn't his speciality. He was an extremaly powerful Aes Sedai in the AoL, so he had to have some knowledge of TAR,especially the stuff that was elementary then (like setting wards on your dreams, some basic control of TAR or the dreams) but his greatest talents laid elsewhere.

 

We could also say that he was gifted with great "general" strong points - huge strength in the One Power, intelligence, knowledge, leadership skills. But he didn't have these very specific talents, such as Dreaming, healing or Foretelling.

 

I don't believe in another confrontation between Rand and Egwene, because:

 

1. There is not enough time. It would have to be a prettily developed strory, and we need all these pages for the fight with the DO and Fain.

 

2. It is inconsistent with the characters' portrayal. Neither Rand nor Egwene would be stupid enough to fight with the Last Battle on their doorstep.

 

3. Even LTT and Latra Posae didn't fight, although they differed substantially. This time Rand said that he "had been raised better" and that he needed women's help. I know there is Nynaeve, Cadsuane,Alivia, Moiraine and the Wise Ones, but it seems that more complete unity will be needed to win this fight.

[MasterAblar]

I think that LTT was reasonably good in TAR, but it wasn't his speciality. He was an extremaly powerful Aes Sedai in the AoL, so he had to have some knowledge of TAR,especially the stuff that was elementary then (like setting wards on your dreams, some basic control of TAR or the dreams) but his greatest talents laid elsewhere.

 

We could also say that he was gifted with great "general" strong points - huge strength in the One Power, intelligence, knowledge, leadership skills. But he didn't have these very specific talents, such as Dreaming, healing or Foretelling.

 

I don't believe in another confrontation between Rand and Egwene, because:

 

1. There is not enough time. It would have to be a prettily developed strory, and we need all these pages for the fight with the DO and Fain.

 

2. It is inconsistent with the characters' portrayal. Neither Rand nor Egwene would be stupid enough to fight with the Last Battle on their doorstep.

 

3. Even LTT and Latra Posae didn't fight, although they differed substantially. This time Rand said that he "had been raised better" and that he needed women's help. I know there is Nynaeve, Cadsuane,Alivia, Moiraine and the Wise Ones, but it seems that more complete unity will be needed to win this fight.

 

I believe the only Talent of LTT's that we know about is his ability to keep gateways open. Only Demandred(he must have been sooooo pissed off) and maybe Semirhage had that Talent if I remember correctly. It's like Rand basically. Just an overall badass. Does that count as a Talent?

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think that LTT was reasonably good in TAR, but it wasn't his speciality. He was an extremaly powerful Aes Sedai in the AoL, so he had to have some knowledge of TAR,especially the stuff that was elementary then (like setting wards on your dreams, some basic control of TAR or the dreams) but his greatest talents laid elsewhere.

 

We could also say that he was gifted with great "general" strong points - huge strength in the One Power, intelligence, knowledge, leadership skills. But he didn't have these very specific talents, such as Dreaming, healing or Foretelling.

 

I don't believe in another confrontation between Rand and Egwene, because:

 

1. There is not enough time. It would have to be a prettily developed strory, and we need all these pages for the fight with the DO and Fain.

 

2. It is inconsistent with the characters' portrayal. Neither Rand nor Egwene would be stupid enough to fight with the Last Battle on their doorstep.

 

3. Even LTT and Latra Posae didn't fight, although they differed substantially. This time Rand said that he "had been raised better" and that he needed women's help. I know there is Nynaeve, Cadsuane,Alivia, Moiraine and the Wise Ones, but it seems that more complete unity will be needed to win this fight.

 

I believe the only Talent of LTT's that we know about is his ability to keep gateways open. Only Demandred(he must have been sooooo pissed off) and maybe Semirhage had that Talent if I remember correctly. It's like Rand basically. Just an overall badass. Does that count as a Talent?

 

Wasn't it rather a result of extreme proficiency and sureness with the weaving? I'm not sure, you may be right about it being a specific Talent.

 

I simply meant that any other specific Talents of LTT hasn't been mentioned - and I think we would have heard if he had been an expert Dreamer or Dreamwalker.

 

He certainly had the Overal Badass Talent

[Durinax]

I have my doubts whether Egwene could pull that off. Rand with LTT integrated within him and perhaps even before has almost certainly wards on his dreams made from sterner stuff than those of the average modern Aes Sedai. It is likely those wards would prevent him from being dragged into TAR against his will.

Cyndane was still able to get into his dreams at the end of ToM (which may or may not have been due to Moridin's connection with Rand). So I wouldn't completely rule out that Rand could be attacked through his dreams.

 

Either way, he would still have his ta'veren powers in T'A'R, should someone manage to pull him in. All I'm saying is that Rand is not invincible and could be taken down under the right circumstances (as we've seen many times in the books). If I were Rand, I would also stay clear of any minty tea served at the FoM.

actually I am wondering if Rand wasnt surfing the area between waking and the dream world, where all the little stars that resemble dreams are. Because Cyndanes would seek out rand since she has such strong feelings for him. (havent read the section in a while)

[Jon Paul]

rand got help from nynaeve in the rahvin fight. rand was getting ass whooped.

 

For most of the fight Rand actually held his own. It was only when Rhavin tried to warp Rand into something that he was not that Rand began to fail. And that was due to Rand's own instability of mind and identity. He didn't know who he was any more.. as evidenced by the fact that when he tried to conjure an image of himself to focus on he couldn't do it. That actually demonstrates a natural affinity with how TAR works.

 

Now Rand knows who he is and has an absolute iron control over his identity and his person. TAR really just comes down to sheer will power and as massive an ego as Egwene has "I am the Amyrlin Seat" doesn't touch on "I am the Dragon Reborn, hand-woven by the Pattern for the specific task of its defence, anointed by Creation its self to be its champion."

[Hopefire]

Now Rand knows who he is and has an absolute iron control over his identity and his person. TAR really just comes down to sheer will power and as massive an ego as Egwene has "I am the Amyrlin Seat" doesn't touch on "I am the Dragon Reborn, hand-woven by the Pattern for the specific task of its defence, anointed by Creation its self to be its champion."

Pretty much. The last chapter of TOM demonstrates that Rand is essentially able to completely control his own dream. Even with Egwene and Perrin, they only achieve control of their actions inside TAR, when they dream in normal sleep they just dream. After his experience on Dragonmount, I think that Rand's sense of self, of purpose and of will are pretty much rock solid.

 

Egwene's biggest triumph in TAR is defeating Mesaana. Mesaana, who up to that point in the series had been even more determined to avoid direct conflict than Moghedien and Asmodean. Mesaana, who was a teacher and governor during the Age of Legends, who wasn't even able to earn her third name. Mesaana, who was at the very least sexually assaulted by Shaidar Haran in the time leading up to the fight with Egwene. All things considered, she was almost certainly suffering from PTSD/rape trauma syndrome at the very least, which would have an immense effect on her self confidence and her ability to fight in TAR. So, basically Egwene beat the woman who was probably the weakest of the Forsaken while said Forsaken was crippled. Barely.

 

It wouldn't be much of a fight.

[Terez]

Even with Egwene and Perrin, they only achieve control of their actions inside TAR, when they dream in normal sleep they just dream.

Egwene has been controlling her dreams completely for a while. She just dreams normally most of the time because she is a Dreamer so it's profitable for her to do so, and also because she gets better rest that way. She is able to simultaneously catalog those dreams because of her control.

 

Egwene's biggest triumph in TAR is defeating Mesaana.

She hasn't had many opportunities (though she did escape Moghedien's traps, which impressed Moghedien, at the very least). But Egwene will probably 1) help Perrin defeat the dreamspike, 2) help Nynaeve resurrect Rand, or 3) help seal the Bore using Tel'aran'rhiod. She might do two of those or all three. Prepare thyself; if Mesaana was the end, it would be ridiculous for RJ to have spend to much time developing her skill.