She vowed to win

[White_star]

In either TSR or tFoH (forget which), after the WOs taught Egwene how to invade peoples dreams (I would slap them for that if I could) and she successfully does it to others, she tries on Rand's dreams because her whole point in this series is to be a pain in his tush and darn it he doesn't deserve ANY privacy. Well, she couldn't get in as we know but because she couldn't take the hint to stay out of his business, she keeps trying and treats them as a game she vowed to win.

 

Lanfear said she could break through his dream ward but it would be painful. Could Egwene's vow, plus what Lanfear said, be a foreshadowing of her eventual victory? Maybe even pulling him into TAR even though the WOs said that was an evil thing? She DID say she'd do what she thought she must.

 

 

Thoughts?

[mb]

I do not recall Egwene "vowing to win".

[Guest PiotrekS]

I don't have my book with me now, but I remember something about Egwene thinking that she would get back to working on this "challenge" when she has the time and that she was very persistent when she had a problem to solve.

 

I agree with White_Star that this shows Egwene's lack of consideration for other people's privacy - if my friend discovered a way to spy on my dreams and used it without my consent, the friendship would be over. Egwene tried to use it against Rand without success, but she succeeded with inter alia Aviendha and Gawyn.

 

I think it is possible that Cyndane/Lanfear might be somehow using her TAR powers to get past Rand's wards and into his dream. But because she said it would be unpleasant and Rand experienced nothing of the kind in ToM, I lean towards the lheory that it was his link with Moridin that allowed Cyndane into Rand's dream.

 

But wouldn't it be cool if in ToM we were to see a battle between Cyndane (possibly with Moghedien and Graendal) and Aviendha, Min and Elayne inside Rand's dreams? The Forsaken could try to control him, the Good Ladies to protect. Although I'd personally prefer the redemption of Lanfear - I have a soft spot for this crazy woman

 

Last clarification: what Egwene wanted to do was to spy at Rand's dreams from this weird space where all dreams are (Matt from Theoryland calls it a Gap if Infinity). It was different from TAR, although somehow connected.

[LemonPastie]

Maybe she will break in, and he will recognise her to be real, and know she is under his control. It will turn bad for her from there

[White_star]

I do not recall Egwene "vowing to win".

Perhaps "vow" is a poor choice of words(and/or poor memory and I don't feel like looking it up), "determined" is probably better.

[mb]

I do not recall Egwene "vowing to win".

Perhaps "vow" is a poor choice of words(and/or poor memory and I don't feel like looking it up), "determined" is probably better.

Do not recall that either.

[sleepinghour]

I do not recall Egwene "vowing to win".

Perhaps "vow" is a poor choice of words(and/or poor memory and I don't feel like looking it up), "determined" is probably better.

Do not recall that either.

Fires of Heaven:

Rand's dreams had been a challenge, of course, one she could not fail to face. Now that she could flit from dream to dream, how could she not try where the Wise Ones failed? Only, attempting to enter his dreams had been like running headlong into an invisible stone wall. She knew that his dreams lay on the other side, and she was sure she could find a way through, but there had been nothing to work on, nothing to pry at. A wall of nothing. It was a problem she meant to worry at until she solved it. Once she put her mind on something, she could be as persistent as a badger.

[mb]

ok.

[Jon Paul]

Rand has pretty much absolute control over his dreams now. I pity Egwene if she ever gets through.

[Zentari]

Rand has pretty much absolute control over his dreams now. I pity Egwene if she ever gets through.

Meh, even if that's true she won't get tossed around too much by zenRand.A meeting with darkrand on the other hand would have been awesome...

[Carnivean]

Maybe she will break in, and he will recognise her to be real, and know she is under his control. It will turn bad for her from there

Why would it turn bad for her from there? Rand still likes Egwene.

[Jon Paul]

Meh, even if that's true she won't get tossed around too much by zenRand.

 

Oh I don't think Rand will try to harm her. Just take her down a peg or two !

[anotherfingolfin]

Oh please, we know how this would turn out. It's Egwene we are talking about. She can inexplicably do things that Moghedien can't in T'A'R. This is Egwene Sue; the story will find a way to not take her down any pegs. If anything, Rand will 'lose' the 'confrontation' (for lake of a better word).

[aamornn]

Oh please, we know how this would turn out. It's Egwene we are talking about. She can inexplicably do things that Moghedien can't in T'A'R. This is Egwene Sue; the story will find a way to not take her down any pegs. If anything, Rand will 'lose' the 'confrontation' (for lake of a better word).

 

So she can't do something that she wants to do and which other characters could do, but she's such a Sue that were she able to get in, she'd be awesome there? I don't agree with the Egwene hate, but I get it. I still don't get the Sue accusations. This is just one more example of her not achieving a goal she sets.

[Mystica]

I have to agree. I never got where the Egwene hatred came from, except perhaps envy or resentment. Does she have her character flaws? Of course she does. All characters in the books do. Which only argues for the part where she is most definately 'not' any sort of Sue.

 

From the start, it's been established (by Rand himself, btw) that 'when Egwene has her mind set on something, she will give that something her full and utter attention, dedication and commitment'. She embraces whatever role life throws at her and does her utmost best in each of them. She started out as a student, hungry and thirsty for knowledge to the point of voluntarily putting herself at the rigid Wise One's training regime for no other reason that she wanted to learn. Hardly the actions of a Peggy, Marry or Susan Sue. Sue's know everything, have all talents in existance (and a few non-existing ones), have no flaws whatsoever and succeed in everything instantaneously without any form of learning, training or adversary.

 

Egwene embraced being a Wisom Apprentice and owned that role to a tee.

She embraced being a WT aspirant and owned that role to a tee.

Embraced being a Wise One apprentice and owned thàt role to a tee (the WO's often play off Egwene and Aviendha to each other as the perfect apprentice. While they may have done so to motivate the other, they wouldn't have said so if it weren't true. Lying is dishonorable as Amys' reaction to Egwene's confession on having lied to being an AS shows, and they wouldn't go there just to put a fire under a couple of apprentices to learn better/faster).

She never asked to be made Amyrlin, never had the ambition to become one, didn't wànt to be the Amyrlin but she didn't have a choice. The other Sisters pushed her to the point of no return and so once again, she embraced the role LIFE threw at her and is doing the best she can under extremely difficult circumstances since the moment she put on the stole.

I don't like how she turned out in the later book either, since instead of bringing a new way of thinking in to the WT she is adopting the age-old Aes Sedai manner of thinking/dealing with things. But this is FULLY in line with her chracter of embracing every role she is placed in. She's a bit of a chameleon, which I don't necessarily approve of, but I can respect it.

[Himiko]

I have to agree. I never got where the Egwene hatred came from, except perhaps envy or resentment.

 

I don't neccessarily agree with this, everyone has characters they like and dislike, and I think most people who love or hate Egwene have bought up valid reasons as to why they specifically love or hate her. Unless you look at it from the perspective of "she's a fictional character, why feel so strongly about her", but you could make that argument for a lot of characters in the book. But yeah, I think there's reason to dislike her, just as others see plenty of reason to like her.

 

As far as the Sue accusations go, personally I feel that your post sums it up to an extent- its not that she acheives everything she needs to learn WITHOUT trying. And she does indeed apply herself. Don't get me wrong, hard work and perseverance, and a willingness to learn, will get a person far. However, there's very, very few people in the world who are good at absolutely everything they set their mind to, and even less who manage to do so after only a few months training. I mean, the only role she was in for significant time, I assume, is Wisdom-in-training. She's only in the WT for a few months when she's raised to Accepted, she's only with the Wise Ones a few months more, and yet she's able to break a Forsaken in TAR as a result of her training? She was only rebel Amyrlin for a few months, and suddenly she's this expert politician, playing centuries old AS off against each other. And she's not ta'veren, I believe RJ confirmed, so its not like that argument can be made. I find it unrealistic, but no, not everyone will, or some people might be more willing to suspend disbelief and look past it, I don't know.

 

Anyway, Sueness aside, personally I think its a horribly invasive and disrespectful thing to actually step into someone else's dreams, whoever does it :S It seems like one ability that would have very little justifiable use, at least in so far as I've seen it used in the books, by any of the characters. With the possible exception of Perrin's battle in the nightmares in TOM, as he wasn't attempting to spy on people's dreams, merely defeat or lose Slayer.

[Terez]

I do not recall Egwene "vowing to win".

Perhaps "vow" is a poor choice of words(and/or poor memory and I don't feel like looking it up), "determined" is probably better.

Do not recall that either.

Fires of Heaven:

Rand's dreams had been a challenge, of course, one she could not fail to face. Now that she could flit from dream to dream, how could she not try where the Wise Ones failed? Only, attempting to enter his dreams had been like running headlong into an invisible stone wall. She knew that his dreams lay on the other side, and she was sure she could find a way through, but there had been nothing to work on, nothing to pry at. A wall of nothing. It was a problem she meant to worry at until she solved it. Once she put her mind on something, she could be as persistent as a badger.

She gave up later:

 

And that slightly muted glow over there was Rand, his dreams guarded behind a ward woven of saidin. She almost stopped – it piqued her that something she could not see or feel could shut her out like a stone wall – but instead let it pass. Another night of futility held no attraction.

 

Rand has pretty much absolute control over his dreams now.

It's funny how you get that from the same scene where he discovered that he didn't control them as completely as he thought.

[WhiskyJack]

If she does, she will not like Rand's dream. His dreams are very dirty and most of them involve Egwene and 6 men.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I have to agree. I never got where the Egwene hatred came from, except perhaps envy or resentment. Does she have her character flaws? Of course she does. All characters in the books do. Which only argues for the part where she is most definately 'not' any sort of Sue.

 

From the start, it's been established (by Rand himself, btw) that 'when Egwene has her mind set on something, she will give that something her full and utter attention, dedication and commitment'. She embraces whatever role life throws at her and does her utmost best in each of them. She started out as a student, hungry and thirsty for knowledge to the point of voluntarily putting herself at the rigid Wise One's training regime for no other reason that she wanted to learn. Hardly the actions of a Peggy, Marry or Susan Sue. Sue's know everything, have all talents in existance (and a few non-existing ones), have no flaws whatsoever and succeed in everything instantaneously without any form of learning, training or adversary.

 

Egwene embraced being a Wisom Apprentice and owned that role to a tee.

She embraced being a WT aspirant and owned that role to a tee.

Embraced being a Wise One apprentice and owned thàt role to a tee (the WO's often play off Egwene and Aviendha to each other as the perfect apprentice. While they may have done so to motivate the other, they wouldn't have said so if it weren't true. Lying is dishonorable as Amys' reaction to Egwene's confession on having lied to being an AS shows, and they wouldn't go there just to put a fire under a couple of apprentices to learn better/faster).

She never asked to be made Amyrlin, never had the ambition to become one, didn't wànt to be the Amyrlin but she didn't have a choice. The other Sisters pushed her to the point of no return and so once again, she embraced the role LIFE threw at her and is doing the best she can under extremely difficult circumstances since the moment she put on the stole.

I don't like how she turned out in the later book either, since instead of bringing a new way of thinking in to the WT she is adopting the age-old Aes Sedai manner of thinking/dealing with things. But this is FULLY in line with her chracter of embracing every role she is placed in. She's a bit of a chameleon, which I don't necessarily approve of, but I can respect it.

 

She was placed in a role of a good damane and owned that role to a tee (I know what happened in the book, I'm just giving examples)

She was placed in a role of death camp guard and owned that role to a tee.

 

That's why I dislike Egwene - I prefer people actually to think and choose their roles, instead of putting all effort into being absolutely the bestest in anything, even if this anything is in fact useless or evil. The lack of reflection on her part is mind-boggling - why do you want to be the best WO apprentice, Egwene?The best Amyrlin? I can accept her wanting to show the Aes Sedai she would not be a puppet, but it is more than that. Egwene doesn't base her choices on the values she holds, but molds her values to fit the role she has chosen, or rather, that has been chosen for her. After all these books, I don't really know who she is.

 

But it shouldn't be another Egwene-bashing threat, should it?

 

I do not recall Egwene "vowing to win".

Perhaps "vow" is a poor choice of words(and/or poor memory and I don't feel like looking it up), "determined" is probably better.

Do not recall that either.

Fires of Heaven:

Rand's dreams had been a challenge, of course, one she could not fail to face. Now that she could flit from dream to dream, how could she not try where the Wise Ones failed? Only, attempting to enter his dreams had been like running headlong into an invisible stone wall. She knew that his dreams lay on the other side, and she was sure she could find a way through, but there had been nothing to work on, nothing to pry at. A wall of nothing. It was a problem she meant to worry at until she solved it. Once she put her mind on something, she could be as persistent as a badger.

She gave up later:

 

And that slightly muted glow over there was Rand, his dreams guarded behind a ward woven of saidin. She almost stopped – it piqued her that something she could not see or feel could shut her out like a stone wall – but instead let it pass. Another night of futility held no attraction.

 

The quote only shows she let it pass because of the futility. Give her the means or an important enough reason and she might try it again - maybe to learn of Rand's plans or maybe to save him from some Moridinish mind attack- I would hate it though.

 

I think that something with Lanfear and TAR is more probable - Egwene is now primarily the Amyrlin - it seems her role as a Dreamwalker was fulfilled when she defeated Mesaana.

[Terez]

You really think that? That the ultimate purpose of her badassery in Tel'aran'rhiod was to defeat Mesaana?

[Dakota]

You really think that? That the ultimate purpose of her badassery in Tel'aran'rhiod was to defeat Mesaana?

 

Yes.

 

Perrin already showed her that while she may be incredibly powerful for a 'human' dreamwalker, she'll still never be as powerful as a wolf (or wolfbrother), to whom T'A'R is more or less a natural state for them. Egwyne will never match or equal Perrin (or at least I hope not, she's Mary Sue enough already), so I think that defeating Mesaana in the way that she did will probably be her T'A'R peak.

 

And am I the only one who thinks if would have been awesome if she had "vowed to win"? She could have been an ancestor/descendant of Charlie Sheen!

[sleepinghour]

She was only rebel Amyrlin for a few months, and suddenly she's this expert politician, playing centuries old AS off against each other. And she's not ta'veren, I believe RJ confirmed, so its not like that argument can be made. I find it unrealistic, but no, not everyone will, or some people might be more willing to suspend disbelief and look past it, I don't know.

I think the bigger problem is that other characters don't behave naturally around her. Her rivals and opponents were dumbed down to a ridiculous level and Siuan turned into Kanye West ("Egwene is the best Amyrlin OF ALL TIME") to keep readers from thinking that maybe Siuan should have gotten her old job back. Given how many pages were devoted to Egwene's rise to Amyrlin, I honestly wish I could have liked it more, but many of the scenes were cringe-worthy to me, especially on rereads.

 

Cadsuane's scenes in TGS and ToM bothered me for the same reason. I like Rand and am mostly indifferent to Cadsuane, but I found it out of character for her to act like she did with Tam and visibly pale just because of the Rand Sedai comment. This from a woman wasn't even fazed by multiple Forsaken attacking at the Cleansing.

 

To quote Brandon's own essay about writing: "The strength of the antagonist determines the strength of the protagonist." Weakening the antagonist just to make the protagonist look better also weakens the story. It would have been a lot more interesting had Elaida been at the top of her game in TGS instead of a gibbering idiot and the Hall actually posed a credible threat to Egwene's authority. Instead they vote in her favor without even knowing what the vote was about. I could go on, but this isn't the Mary Sue thread.

 

Anyway, I don't think Egwene was a Mary Sue prior to becoming Amyrlin, but she definitely is one now. Other characters (most notably Rand and Mat) have their moments of Sueness, but at least they have the excuse of being ta'veren. When Mat makes a bargain with the Sea Folk in ACoS, everyone--Sea Folk included--understands it's his ta'veren powers at work and not Mat himself who is capable of besting people who've spent their entire lives honing their bargaining skills. It's like Egwene was suddenly given the same kind of ta'veren powers without actually being ta'veren.

 

Anyway, Sueness aside, personally I think its a horribly invasive and disrespectful thing to actually step into someone else's dreams, whoever does it :S It seems like one ability that would have very little justifiable use, at least in so far as I've seen it used in the books, by any of the characters. With the possible exception of Perrin's battle in the nightmares in TOM, as he wasn't attempting to spy on people's dreams, merely defeat or lose Slayer.

Egwene also repeatedly spies on Berelain's dreams, but at least Berelain isn't her friend. It never even occurs to her that spying on Rand's dreams (and Nynaeve's in CoT) might be wrong. The Wise Ones are not much better in that respect--they spied on Rand's dreams as well--but at least it's understandable why they'd want to keep close tabs on a man who is prophesized to "break them as dried twigs." They're not doing it to snoop on his dreams about women.

[Elvira_Sedai]

You really think that? That the ultimate purpose of her badassery in Tel'aran'rhiod was to defeat Mesaana?

 

Yes.

 

Perrin already showed her that while she may be incredibly powerful for a 'human' dreamwalker, she'll still never be as powerful as a wolf (or wolfbrother), to whom T'A'R is more or less a natural state for them. Egwyne will never match or equal Perrin (or at least I hope not, she's Mary Sue enough already), so I think that defeating Mesaana in the way that she did will probably be her T'A'R peak.

 

And am I the only one who thinks if would have been awesome if she had "vowed to win"? She could have been an ancestor/descendant of Charlie Sheen!

 

Sorry , but Brandon himselsf answering on one of fans questions said that Egwene's and Perrin's skill in TAR aren't superior to each other , they are just different . And Perrin didn't kill his archenemy ( Slayer ) or capture him while Egwene has achieved better results with Mesaana . I hope , Egwene would have an awesome rendezvous with Lanfear during aMoL and show her master class

[Jon Paul]

It's funny how you get that from the same scene where he discovered that he didn't control them as completely as he thought.

 

It's funny how you got that from my statement that he pretty much had absolute control. Excluding the Moridin factor.. he does.

[sandoz12]

Dragonmount needs to make its own version of Godwin's Law something like "Once a thread mentions Egwene the probability of the thread turning into an Egwene bashing thread approaches 1". Maybe someone could make a more eloquent version of this.