Robert Jordans Planning of the series

[Mr Ares]

this whole mystery and few glimpses is just overrated. isnt new spring one the best books in the series?

No. Firstly, it's not even a part of the series proper, and secondly I would put at least nine books ahead of it, easily.

if jordan actually started the series from AOL we would have an epic series.

Yes. But it would have been a different series. Not necessarily better or worse, but it wouldn't be WoT.

Just imagine at the end when we all finished the book and thought yes, shaitan as been sealed up by lews therin and co only to find the terrible cost. It would have made a huge dramatic ending.

 

instead we start from the middle. and when we reached book 7, the train has spectacularly crashed in to realms of mediocrity, filler and general wastage of time. the series timeline was flawed. 14 books to finish one single stroy is stretching it. jordan and harriet wanted money in the end and just extended the series. i don't blame them for wanting more money but they way they went about it just a left bad taste in the mouth.

"Begin in the middle. Then go back to the beginning. The ending will take care of itself." Given that WoT is Rand's story (among others), not LTT's it makes precious little sense to write several books of LTT's story. That is basically just writing a completely different story. I see no real evidence that RJ was milking it for money, despite the frequency with which that statement is made. As Osan'gar's Razor points out, that doesn't make a lot of sense when you're producing books at a slower pace. Lots of speed written filler, that's the way to go if you just want to make money - how about a lengthy and pointless diversion to Shara? The problems of the later books of the series don't really seem like those of someone trying to make loadsamoney. Someone who has always been quite willing to go about his story with a laid back, descriptive style (a "lazy river" style, I've seen it described as) and books rushed through the editing process combined would lead to some of the problems we see, and I don't really see why RJ shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.

[hazelkrs1]

Something I just thought of that's kinda funny:

 

Had RJ written a series about the AoL instead of about the Dragon Reborn; at the end when they seal Shaitan in the bore, only its hinted that the bore really wouldn't stay closed forever and that next time LTT would be reborn to fight Shaitan in the ultimate Last Battle, imagine how many people would have clamored for a series about THOSE events

 

/can't please everyone

[Puny]

I´m sure RJ had his whole story planned out, as he had stated many times and that he knew in the beginning how it was going to end. That being said WoT is huge, with lots of descriptions about clothing, teadrinking, aiel customs, lords being lordly and so on. For Jordan I think it was a way for him to make his world seem more real, and maybe a way for him to emmerse himself even more in the world he has created.

 

Sure the pacing was faster in the beginning, and slowed down in the middle, and then the pacing started to increase again towards the end. Seems lika a natural progression of a story, if you see WoT as one book, which in RJ´s mind it was. Rj wrote for his fans but mostly for himself I think. With WoT being so massive and with all the threads needing to be woven together it´s not surprising that RJ sometimes may have gotten lost, or dragged on some scenes, plotlines cause he wasn´t sure how to write the change that needed to be done. Even though an author knows what is gonne happen, and has planned everything doesn´t mean that the actual writing to that moment is easy.

 

The whole debate as to Brandon wrote this, Jordan wrote that, Jordan sucks, Brandon sucks more, can´t you see the differences you woolheads, is pointless. Some do indeed see the differences, some see none, and some see things that aren´t there. Brandon is writing the end to a bookseries that most of us, if not love then like and have a certain affection for. We have a right to be picky and demand descent books that are true to what RJ started, but to demand that it will be like Jordan would have written it isn´t fair. We can only ask for Brandon to sincerely try and do his best.

[hazelkrs1]

I´m sure RJ had his whole story planned out, as he had stated many times and that he knew in the beginning how it was going to end. That being said WoT is huge, with lots of descriptions about clothing, teadrinking, aiel customs, lords being lordly and so on. For Jordan I think it was a way for him to make his world seem more real, and maybe a way for him to emmerse himself even more in the world he has created.

 

Sure the pacing was faster in the beginning, and slowed down in the middle, and then the pacing started to increase again towards the end. Seems lika a natural progression of a story, if you see WoT as one book, which in RJ´s mind it was. Rj wrote for his fans but mostly for himself I think. With WoT being so massive and with all the threads needing to be woven together it´s not surprising that RJ sometimes may have gotten lost, or dragged on some scenes, plotlines cause he wasn´t sure how to write the change that needed to be done. Even though an author knows what is gonne happen, and has planned everything doesn´t mean that the actual writing to that moment is easy.

 

The whole debate as to Brandon wrote this, Jordan wrote that, Jordan sucks, Brandon sucks more, can´t you see the differences you woolheads, is pointless. Some do indeed see the differences, some see none, and some see things that aren´t there. Brandon is writing the end to a bookseries that most of us, if not love then like and have a certain affection for. We have a right to be picky and demand descent books that are true to what RJ started, but to demand that it will be like Jordan would have written it isn´t fair. We can only ask for Brandon to sincerely try and do his best.

 

 

/threadend. Well said Logain's pet.

[Kal11]

Another thing that I believe effects people's view on the books is that the story often goes where you don't expect, for both better and worse at times. I think many people feel invested enough in the story and characters that on first read they feel disappointed, frustrated or even angry when the story arc goes somewhere they dislike. However after you have had time to see the plot grow you accept the way events have unfolded as part of the story. It is like hearing a song you dislike or feel meh about at first but once you listen for a bit you realize it is actually pretty good. Personally for me there are definitely some filler tracks on this album but the good songs are great enough to make it all worthwhile.

 

If you think reading about secondary characters extensively while holding up the main arc is tedious or you have to slog through such scenes then books 7-10 are disappointing. If you dig world building, having a lot of questions to speculate upon for books or longer at a time, and having to infer a lot about the story for yourself it is as a whole right up your alley. I am somewhere in between the two (I <3 the freedom to skip primarily Elayne scenes for the most part later on) but the the storylines I really love are good enough to make me enjoy all the books to some degree or another.

 

I imagine WoT and Lost attract the same type of fans as the style of storytelling is very similar. The cast of characters was so big you might wait 4+ episodes or even seasons to get back to a cliffhanger storyline or have a question answered. The answer was also not always what you would expect or want. Both respective series tries to be character driven and appeal to a broad range of personalities. If you do not enjoy or feel bored by characters you dislike or feel neutral on it can easily turn you off or feel like the effort is not worth the reward. You also have to shrug off some plot devices or arcs that you personally find implausible or ridiculous in both of them.

[Samuel]

Lots of words

Fantastic post Emilia. Couldn't agree more. Great series, but a lot of people take it way too seriously and seem to honestly think it's a true classic or something. I love the Wheel Of Time and it has some great things going for it, but it also has it's many flaws and I think it is good that I can see both the good and bad points of the series. It used to be my favourite fantasy series, but then instead of re-reading it for the fifth time, I read Game Of Thrones instead...what do you know, whole new series that I love (and now I think ASOIAF is much better than WOT). From there, I branch out even more, Prince Of Nothing, Name Of The Wind...and find so many new works that I love and enjoy. WOT still holds a special place in my heart, but reading other series' was amazingly good for me and my appreciation of the genre.

 

ASOIAF is a piece of crap (yea I did read it). Don't even mention it on the same page with WoT please.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and thinking Wheel of Time is vastly superior to A Song Of Ice And Fire (as you clearly do) is totally legitimate-just as my opinion that A Song Of Ice And Fire is a better series than the Wheel Of Time is also totally legitimate.

 

That being said, there is absolutely zero need for aggression mate. You can't tell me "not to mention" a book series on this forum just because you don't like it. That sort of ignorant attitude stymies the sort of intelligent and involved discussion a site like Dragonmount exists for.

[Massive]

Read ASOIAF if you like INCEST and RAPE. One thing WOT does lack though is a prominent retard. HODOR!!!!

[Samuel]

Read ASOIAF if you like INCEST and RAPE. One thing WOT does lack though is a prominent retard. HODOR!!!!

That is really very offensive. Read ASOIAF if you like rape? That really crosses the line dude. There are some things that shouldn't be joked about.

[Elan Tedronai]

ASOAIF beats the hell of WOT. At least the main characters are not death proof

[Massive]

Read ASOIAF if you like INCEST and RAPE. One thing WOT does lack though is a prominent retard. HODOR!!!!

That is really very offensive. Read ASOIAF if you like rape? That really crosses the line dude. There are some things that shouldn't be joked about.

 

thxinfo

[Samuel]

ASOAIF beats the hell of WOT. At least the main characters are not death proof

It's a funny thing eh, main characters dying. What I find really interesting is that, for all the "oh in ASOIAF noooooone is safe!!!" sort of comments, there's relatively few major character deaths in the series, at least in terms of POVs. I think it speaks to the impact of those few that they leave such an impression.

 

In WOT, there may be basically zero major character deaths, but there are a fair few second-tier character's that die. Verin and Ingtar are big ones, Asmodeon was an enormous one (haha), Asunawa and Masema also stick out in my head. Verin, Ingtar and Asmodeon's deaths were all plenty memorable, but they weren't characters we had enormous attachment to. I guess it's just a different style of writing. The only problem with having no real main characters dying is that it removes a lot of suspense and tension from their POV...I never felt Egwene was ever really in danger at the Tower for example, just because there was no precedent of a major POV dying.

[Threepy]

I haven't feared for the death of any main character in WoT for a long time. The only major character killed came back (Moiraine) and it was made pretty obvious she still had a role to play quite early on. For a large part it isn't a problem but it makes the bad guys look a little incompetent. I'm currently reading through ASOIAF and the deaths surprise me. I know no character is safe, but even knowing that the deaths surprise me - they seem to come out of nowhere.

[Agitel]

The point of ASoIaF is that it highlights a lot of the issues in medieval society that most fantasy glosses over or glorifies, or somehow portrays as being alright (particularly women's issues). To act like it portrays such things in a glorifying way is just ignorance (in fact, it's meant to be a bit horrifying, and the women both struggle against and are forged by the crap they endure. A lot of the gritty stuff in ASoIaF are also exaggerrated by detractors.

[Elan Tedronai]

I haven't feared for the death of any main character in WoT for a long time. The only major character killed came back (Moiraine) and it was made pretty obvious she still had a role to play quite early on. For a large part it isn't a problem but it makes the bad guys look a little incompetent. I'm currently reading through ASOIAF and the deaths surprise me. I know no character is safe, but even knowing that the deaths surprise me - they seem to come out of nowhere.

 

 

tell me about it. Reading ASOIAF for the first time was shocking for me. Especially deaths to major characters. It just exposed how little tension WOT had.

 

It is really sad that after 13 books there has not been a single major character death. And we haven't even reached tarmon gaiden yet. The bad guys are just cartoon villains now in WOT. There's nothing terrifying about them now. Not even padan fain at this point

[Cybertrolloc]

It's not that open season in ASoIaF. There's a good deal of plot armor to go around, but the mains are also way less blase about danger than say Elayne :) Hmm, some of Feast for Crows was practically Jordanesque for people surviving things you wouldn't expect them to.

[sandoz12]

I think mostly the series is well done but I think there are three plot lines that could have greatly been cut which could have maybe reduced the series by one book:

• Nynaeve and Elaynes circus sideshow on the way to salidar
  
• Faile's imprisonment saga
  
• Elayne's gaining the Andor throne
  

 

Rather than reducing the series by one book I would have preferred the space freed up from these plot lines be used to flesh out other scenes/plots such as when Egwene finally claimed the White Tower (which felt rushed to me) and the black tower could have had more screen time and I am sure there are others.

 

However, this is a strictly personal opinion and I'm sure others wouldn't have want those scenes cut and would have complained if the scenes I would have liked longer were longer. In this regard there is simply no way an author can please all fans.

[hazelkrs1]

Read ASOIAF if you like INCEST and RAPE. One thing WOT does lack though is a prominent retard. HODOR!!!!

 

I know there might have been a few words in this post which could easily offend others on this board, but this post made me laugh my nonworking branlegs off!

 

As for the whole building tension thing, tension can come from many things, not just wondering if your favorite character is about to croak. For WOT, the tension is pretty obvious: you dont want the DO to win! You don't need any of the major characters to die in any but the last book for this to happen. There were MANY times when I was reading when I was sweating because some advantage or edge looked like it was heading towards BA or one of the chosen. Look: when reading a major epic fantasy series, it's fairly obvious that the good side wins in the end. Only one pseudo major character was killed in LOTR, and he had even betrayed the little hobbitses, but you don't see people tearing apart that series do you? (Ok I have actually heard people criticize that series but theyre just plain dumbbbbb) I think the character killing has gone a little overboard in ASOIAF.

 

Not that many major character deaths you say? Hmmmm

 

Robert Baratheon

Ned Stark

Khal Drogo

Theon Greyjoy

Balon Greyjoy

Samwell Tarly's smallclothes (from overexposure to the acidic content of his urine)

Renly Baratheon

Lady

Jeor Mormont

Lommy Greenhands (ok he was very minor but he got stabbed in the throak!)

Viserys Targaryen

Lord Varys' unmentionables

Robb Stark

Catelyn Stark

Benjen Stark (ok you dont have to count that one)

Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister-Spawn

Ygritte

Jaime Lannister po wittle hand

349,168,752,986 maidenheads

teased us with Bran and Rickon

The Giant King (sounds like a disney movie donnit!)

Tyrion's nose

Mace Windu

Aunt Jemima

Goku (3 times!)

.......

and I'm still on the 3rd book!

 

 

yeah there's been a few... I will say that the Forsaken have ended up looking a lot less dangerous than when they were being introduced. I know that was part of the point, that in most cases their legend grew past the truth (cept in Semihrage's case she's evil to the bone!) but they've had their hands tied a bit too much. That being said, I don't think the point in reading a fantasy series is to think the character you're reading about might die any second. And you can definitely notice all the deaths in ASOIAF has had a major toll on just the readability of the books: when the series started there was a PLETHURA of POV's, which led to a bevy of intrigue and following a ton of plots and different players in the game. Now? As I flip the pages of Storm of Swords, here are the POV's: Tyrion, Arya, Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Arya..... see my point? Just not as entertaining anymore.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Well, I have never understood this complaining about the lack of major characters' deaths. I personally like it and would love a happy shiny ending with everyone alive and living happily ever after.

 

I hate books or movies where the only interesting thing is when one of the heroes will be offed. I can't stand the writers trying to manipulate my fear for the characters.

 

I guess I'm in the minority

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i feel the same. i don't like being emotionally manipulated in that particular way. i want everyone to live happily ever after.

 

if they must die, let them die with honor, saving the world, at the very last possible moment.

[Guest PiotrekS]

And the point about the lack of POVs also holds for me - when the author is good enough to create a character who is interesting and people care about them, killing of said character represents a certain wasted effort. The writer builds this character, gives him history, personality, special way of speaking and halfway through the books this is gone.

 

Imagine WOT if Mat and Aviendha were really kiled during the battle with Rahvin. Would it be better? All these books without them?

 

Ok, the killing of Asmodean provided fandom with an endless discussion topic, but I personally have always missed this talented, cynical bastard And I want Verin back.

 

I guess the point is: I like these characters and I'd like them all to stay till the end. Sure it kills tension, but I've never cared about it anyway. My life is tense enough, thank you.

[Mulk]

this didn't need to become a forum for whether Martin or Jordan is a better writer or planner or anything. Just saying. You can say what you need to say without turning a thread into an insult fest or the like over which series is better.

 

I personally think Pratchett has both of them beat. ;)

[DocBean]

I think we can stop comparing ASOIAF and Wheel of Time.

basically you're comparing something that's Rated R, to something that's rated PG13.

 

they can both be entertaining, they're just different.

Jordan's world is suited for a younger audience, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Martin's world is for Adults.

 

 

I think the real discussion was about if Jordan got off track form his original idea or not.

[DocBean]

this didn't need to become a forum for whether Martin or Jordan is a better writer or planner or anything. Just saying. You can say what you need to say without turning a thread into an insult fest or the like over which series is better.

 

I personally think Pratchett has both of them beat. ;)

 

oh god please don't start throwing out other authors' names.

We don't want those Goodkind idiots showing up.

haha

[Mulk]

was a joke, at least partially. :) If it gets too distracting I can always pull it down, the intent was to try to lighten the mood in the thread a touch. Anyway, back to the topic. I've already said what I think about his planning or lack thereof (I'm not fond of it). I still like the story and I'm still glad Brandon is finishing it.

[Majsju]

And the point about the lack of POVs also holds for me - when the author is good enough to create a character who is interesting and people care about them, killing of said character represents a certain wasted effort. The writer builds this character, gives him history, personality, special way of speaking and halfway through the books this is gone.

 

Imagine WOT if Mat and Aviendha were really kiled during the battle with Rahvin. Would it be better? All these books without them?

 

Ok, the killing of Asmodean provided fandom with an endless discussion topic, but I personally have always missed this talented, cynical bastard And I want Verin back.

 

I guess the point is: I like these characters and I'd like them all to stay till the end. Sure it kills tension, but I've never cared about it anyway. My life is tense enough, thank you.

 

Difference between Martin and your scenario with Mat & Avi is that Martin does not kill off major characters for the simple sake of killing them off. He does it because the plot requires them to be removed from the story. Had Ned Stark not died, Robb could not have been made king of the north, and the north would never have joined the war. Had Khal drogo not died, Dany would still be lurking with the Dothraki horde, and not having her dragons. Had Robert not died, no war at all, no Joffrey claiming the throne, and everything that followed because of that, etc,

 

Meanwhile, in WOT, Mat and Avi are still crucial pieces, whose purpose can not be shifted to others in case they would die.

 

Another difference that is most noticable in the beginning of ASOIAF is that the first main players to get killed off are the older ones - Ned, Robert, Jon Arys...Characters whose deaths makes room for the younger ones to come into play. Wheras on WOT, almost all major players are the young ones.