How does mat know?

[Gentled Ben]

The White tower isn't exactly half of the world anyways. If we were to follow the train of thought of him giving up half of the world to the Seanchan it would more likly be that he would be giving up the western half of the world.

The Finns didn't tell him he'd give up half the world, they said half of the light of the world. I don't think it has anything to do with a huge, geographic (or demographic) area. I'm asserting that instead, it alludes to an institution.

Mat may have a dislike for Aes Sedai, but he's not an evil person. If it came to a battle between the White Tower and Seanchan he would side with the White Tower (unless he found a way to run as far from the whole thing he could)

He wouldn't have to be evil, he would have to be desperate. He does it to save the world; it would be a lesser of two evils kind of thing. He wouldn't want to do it, but if he didn't, the whole world would fall.

 

I'm open to other suggestions, but what else, at this point, would qualify as half the light of the world? Bear in mind that one of his eyes would be half the light of his world, not THE world, and it is the definitive article (the) that is used.

 

Before, I could have seen how perhaps, because of it's unity, if nothing else, the Seanchan Empire could be half the light of the world, but now, it's clearly in ruins, and the only thing we've seen in the books that would really fit the description, to me, is the White Tower. We know that the Seanchan will attack it, and he's married to their empress. Yes, he would be loathe to betray the Tower and the Aes Sedai, and yes, he has saved several Aes Sedai already (counting the super girls), but again, it's only "to save the world" that he does it.

[WarkWark]

I always assumed that "to give up half the light in the world to save the world" was when Mat gave the order to kill Tuon's female servant who was running off to tell the Seanchan that she was a captive. I thought I remembered something clicking inside of him that day.

[DemandredFO]

I haven't come up with a theory yet but I think it's an eye because look at Min's viewing, an eye on a balance scale. Also Egwene's Dream of Matt with his hat pushed down low and blood running down his face from a hidden wound. Also Matt is strongly based on Odin, a one-eyed battle god. All I got for now but when I have coherent theory I will post it.

[Gentled Ben]

I always assumed that "to give up half the light in the world to save the world" was when Mat gave the order to kill Tuon's female servant who was running off to tell the Seanchan that she was a captive. I thought I remembered something clicking inside of him that day.

Something might have clicked within him, but that day, he didn't even give up half of his sul'dam, and it was to save Tuon, not the world. His world, maybe, but not the world.

 

 

I haven't come up with a theory yet but I think it's an eye because look at Min's viewing, an eye on a balance scale.

Min's viewing might be separate from what the Finns told him. He could lose an eye, and still betray the Aes Sedai. Heck, it even rhymes. It's ballad fodder:

"Well, he tore out his eye, and leashed the Aes Sedai, before he helped The Dragon save the world...he was such a lucky guy!" :P

[TheDiceAgain...]

'm open to other suggestions, but what else, at this point, would qualify as half the light of the world? Bear in mind that one of his eyes would be half the light of his world, not THE world, and it is the definitive article (the) that is used.

 

To quote Bill Clinton:

That would depend on what you definition of is, is. (Just Kiddin')

[akuhn]

i was just thinking that maybe half the LIGHT might also have something to do with rands prophecy about the day dawning twice and all that it might be a connection.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm open to other suggestions, but what else, at this point, would qualify as half the light of the world? Bear in mind that one of his eyes would be half the light of his world, not THE world, and it is the definitive article (the) that is used.

 

First of all, how is the Tower the "Light of the World"? More like a binch of scheming backbiting old women who inadvertently sheltered a nest of Dreadlords for close on 3000 years now.

 

Second, this is a subjective prophecy for Mat, and for Mat, the light of the world is made known to him subjectively through his eyes. Through his eyes, he sees THE world, so losing one of his eyes would block out half of his ability to see the world. Or, for Mat, half the light of the world.

 

Understand, this is not a guarantee that Mat physically loses an eye as fulfillment of this prophecy (even though I do think that is the most likely thing to happen). All I am saying definitively is that the use of the definitive article "the" does not preclude a personal loss for Mat from fulfilling the prophetic utterance, since the prophecy is subjectively related to him.

[Anajon]

Isn't "The Light" generally in the books a name for the good side? What if he has to make a decision that puts him into a grey area when it comes to walking in the light - verses being a darkfriend.

 

I can't imagine Mat - making a deal with the dark one - but the Finns are somehow evil as well...

 

On some point I thought Perrin might trip and "give up the light" walking in the light to get back Faile; but since he got her back that hopefully is not going to happen.

 

Wasn't there also a prophesy about the right and the left hand and how one goes a stray... or something like that.

[Gentled Ben]

First of all, how is the Tower the "Light of the World"? More like a binch of scheming backbiting old women who inadvertently sheltered a nest of Dreadlords for close on 3000 years now.

And preserved the world's culture, forged its alliances, gathered its knowledge, healed its diseases, helped defend it from the trollocs, etc. The White Tower has served the world much as monasteries did during the Dark Ages, by transcribing manuscripts and cataloging what could be salvaged and preserved from the previous, classical culture, but in addition to that, the Tower has defended the world to the best of its ability, and it has done so consistently for 3000 years, unlike any other organization. They're not all Black Ajah, Robert, and without the Tower, the world surely would have plunged into total darkness and anarchy. It's come close enough a few times as it is.

All I am saying definitively is that the use of the definitive article "the" does not preclude a personal loss for Mat from fulfilling the prophetic utterance, since the prophecy is subjectively related to him.

Gotcha. Thanks, I hadn't thought of it like that. I still don't think it applies to his eyes, though, but I can see how using "the" doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to them.

[El Dude]

im not completely sure about what half the light of the world is. im pretty sure mat will loose one of his eyes but again i dont know what this has to do with the ligt of the world. The only eye that i could see having to do with the light of the world would well, be the Eye of the World but have no idea about that either.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And preserved the world's culture, forged its alliances, gathered its knowledge, healed its diseases, helped defend it from the trollocs, etc. The White Tower has served the world much as monasteries did during the Dark Ages, by transcribing manuscripts and cataloging what could be salvaged and preserved from the previous, classical culture, but in addition to that, the Tower has defended the world to the best of its ability, and it has done so consistently for 3000 years, unlike any other organization. They're not all Black Ajah, Robert, and without the Tower, the world surely would have plunged into total darkness and anarchy. It's come close enough a few times as it is.

 

Yeah, I guess my description of the White Tower was a little harsh, they have done some good too. Just not enough, in my opinion, to be called the Light of the World. But thats purely a matter of opinion, I see where you're coming from.

[TheDiceAgain...]

My problem with this whole line of thought that "to give up half the light of the world to save the world" means something other than that Mat will lose an eye is that there are so many prophecies in the text that come true physically, not just metaphorically, especially when it has something to do with their appearance.

 

We have Egween's and Perrin's dreams of the Dragon's settling on on Rand's arms. Rand goes to Rhuidean and they are there.

 

Egwene dreams of Mat's hanging and it happens in Rhuidean where he gets the scar around his neck.

 

She dreams of a "dark young man holds a bright, shining object", Jahar Narishma with Callandor.

 

Perrin's dream of Mat flipping a coin and choosing one path over another and by that choice wearing the hat and carrying the Ashanderie.

 

Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud. - Galad became a Whitecloak. She may have thought the shroud imagery meant his death, but we know differently.

 

There are others, some things that are most assuredly more metaphorical, and yet every time there has been a dream specifically mentioning a change in someones's appearance, their appearance has changed over time to match the dream vision. Even Egwene's early dreams of Perin with a beard. Losing or "giving up" an eye would definitely change Mat's appearance and so I believe that it will happen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

She may have thought the shroud imagery meant his death, but we know differently.

 

Well .... to be fair, Galad's path as a Whitecloak could still lead to his death. On the whole though, I agree with you. While some of the dreams are metaphorical, many are just plain fact. The fact that the different sources of prophecy (Dreaming, the Aelfinn) would be mutually fulfilled with the physical loss of an eye for some purpose that saves the world makes that a very likely eventuality.

 

I like the idea that the fact that he loses an eye is likely to be regarded by Tuon as an omen. What that omen means, I don't know, but the Seanchan place great symbolic value on eyes. Gaining and losing honor is referred to as raising and lowering ones eyes. "My eyes", or "By my eyes" is a Seanchan oath. You get the picture. Mat losing an eye is likely to have great meaning to her.

[Anajon]

I agree that Mat will most likely loose an eye - just if that is the fulfilment to the lose half of the light to save the world prophesy, that is what I'm not sure about.

 

It could easily two different events.

 

In Christianity "the light of the world" is Jesus as well as the Christian community - who are meant to be the light of the world and not hide etc... (I know that we don't always manage that very well or that some people who call them self Christians might not live it out at all, so please no discussion on that :-) )

 

But if you take it back to WOT Land - it would link to either Rand - who is kind of the Messiah figure or the population that walks in the light - or the people who see them self as defender of the Light - the white cloaks, who I believe are meant to represent the extreme right wing American Christians.

 

Please I'm an evangelical Christian myself - so don't be offended by this - but people killing doctors - to prevent abortions is not walking in the light in my eyes - so in some way these people are taking things to an militant extreme just like the whiteclaoks.

[Mitch]

Here's a thought that I've been toying with recently, going along with the Tower being the Light of the World.

 

The tower is split up in to two groups, those that support Elaida, and those that support Egwene. I would say roughly half, even though exact numbers arn't known. Two ravens are to attack the Tower, based on Egwene's dream, and I believe those to be Mat and Tuon.

 

Since the Horn of Valere is in the Tower and, and Elaida is in control (and likly not to give it up), something drastic has to happen for Mat to get it back. So, what if he gives up 'Half the Light' to overthrow Elaida, and help put Egwene as the Amyrlin? Also, there is the fact that Tuon can channel, or be taught if she hasn't developed as a Sul'dam enough, and eventually she's going to have to accept this and abolish the collaring thing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Assuming the Tower is "the Light of the World", that idea makes sense. I simply don't make that assumption.

 

Although remember, Elaida doesn't know the Horn is in the Tower. And she certainly doesn't know Mat blew it.

[Kaxen]

i haven't got my book with me at the moment but when the finns (i think its the finns) tell mat the prophecy of giving up half the light of the world, do they pronounce it with a capitol?

 

Light (the forces of good, whom ever you think it may be)

 

light (sunlight)

 

just an idle thought, hope it sheds some 'light' upon the subject :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

In the book, it is not written with a capital letter ...

 

Hey, maybe Mat gets an eye blown out rediscovering the explosives necessary for rocketry and space flight. Then he builds an orbital platform that blocks out the sun for half the day, but is able to strike at the Dark One from space every time he sticks his finger out.

 

Talmanes: "Sir, the finger, its coming out again!"

 

Mat: "Blood and ashes, I was about to go visit Tuon. Light him up!"

 

Talmanes: "Yes sir! Red Hand orbital laser activated sir!"

 

------------KAPOW-------------

 

Shai'tan: "AARGH, BLOODY LASER!"

 

Talmanes: "Sir, the finger has ... no wait, its his middle finger sir!"

 

Mat: "So? What's that supposed to mean?"

 

Shai'tan: "AARGH, WRONG AGE!"

 

Mat: "What's he babbling about? Flaming hit him again already, I don't have time for this."

 

Talmanes: "Yes sir! Red Hand orbital laser, full power, firing, aye!"

 

Mat: "Talmanes .... blood and ashes, take your knickers out of your rear, man ...."

 

Talmanes: "Sorry Lord Mat. Shoot him, Vanin."

 

Vanin: <spits>

 

--------------KAPOWWWWEEEEEE---------------

 

Shai'tan: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHH"

 

Talmanes: "Yeah, he's back in his hole."

 

Mat: "Good, I'm going on vacation."

[Wolfwalker]

In the book' date=' it is not written with a capital letter ...

 

 

Since light is not written with a capital in the finns' prophecy, to me that makes it mean simply the light of day- which would fit in with Mat losing an eye, and linking it to Min's vision of an eye on a balance scale. Since he is suppose to do that to "save the world" maybe it is when he rescues Moiraine. Min did see that Rand will fail at TG without Moiraine.

 

BTW, has anyone else notice that the Finns seem to have a hand in helping their own prophecies come true? Mat was told by the Aelfinn that he would die and live again, and the Eelfinn oblige by hanging him. And, then again, would he have really said that Tuon was his wife three times if he hadn't been told that by the Finns? And without those memories the Eelfinn gave him, he wouldn't have fit her prophecy of being the "man who remembers Hawkwing's face". Seems to make sense that they would be involved with his "giving up half the light of the world" too!

 

Just an interesting thought I've had....

 

 

 

']

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, I agree with Mat losing an actual eye. I just thought that scenario would be funny.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wolfwalker -

 

There's a couple of problems with your version.

 

Mat didn't actually die when they hung him. He came close, but Rand emerged from the rings in time to save him. He died and lived again in Caemlyn. Rahvin's trap killed him, but Rand's balefire unraveled enough time that he was restored.

 

Mat didn't knowingly say Tuon was his wife three times. He had no way to know that saying it three times was half of the marriage ceremony. Besides, he was basically babbling to himself in amazement, at the time. It's just that he was loud enough about it that everyone heard. But, you're right, if the 'Finns hadn't told him about the Daughter of the Nine Moons, he wouldn't have said anything.

[FelixA9]

And without those memories the Eelfinn gave him' date=' he wouldn't have fit her prophecy of being the "man who remembers Hawkwing's face". [/quote']

 

He also saw Hawkwing when he blew the Horn.

[Wolfwalker]

 

 

 

Mat didn't actually die when they hung him. He came close' date=' but Rand emerged from the rings in time to save him. He died and lived again in Caemlyn. Rahvin's trap killed him, but Rand's balefire unraveled enough time that he was restored.

 

Mat didn't knowingly say Tuon was his wife three times. He had no way to know that saying it three times was half of the marriage ceremony. Besides, he was basically babbling to himself in amazement, at the time. It's just that he was loud enough about it that everyone heard. But, you're right, if the 'Finns hadn't told him about the Daughter of the Nine Moons, he wouldn't have said anything.[/quote']

 

You're right, I had forgotten about the Rahvin incident. However, I still think he did die when the Eelfinn hung him. Can't check, as my copy of SR is missing at the moment. But I seem to remember that his heart wasn't beating and Rand revived him. Technically, he was dead. And on thinking about it- when balefire is kills someone, what they did isn't reversed, it never occured. That's my understanding of it. Once Rahvin was balefired, it didn't bring Mat back to life, it erased his dying in the first place. That's why he doesn't remember it like he does the hanging.

 

I never meant that Mat knowingly declared Tuon his wife- as someone who wanted to avoid marriage he wouldn't have done that! I just meant that it's interesting that if they hadn't have told him, he wouldn't have babbled (good decription, Bob!) the first part of the ceremony. That's all.

[TheDiceAgain...]

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm going to agree with Bob here :lol: . Mat did not die of hanging, though he may have been very close to it. Think of it as someone who is drowning and gets revived by CPR. Though they aren't breathing and their heart has stopped, they aren't actually officially dead until brain activity ceases. In fact, Rand uses a primitive form of CPR he saw Master Luhan use back in Emonds Field when someone was drowning. Also, RJ has confirmed that the "to die and live again" part of the prophecy was fulfilled by the incident in Caemlyn with Ravhin.

[Wolfwalker]

Ok, I can see that. I need to find my copy of SR- that always was one of my favorites.

 

Also on thinking on balefire effects again, I have to recant the idea that it is like it never happened- in some ways yes, but if that were really true Rand would not remember Mat, etc. dying, and he does. The people who were involved in what was undone don't, remember, but those around them do.