First Time Reading the First Book

[Feral]

The flute with Rand, eh, I'll just say it was natural for him. ;)

 

*facepalm*

 

Duh! I'm rereading it again and it makes sense now. I got the juggling.

 

*facepalm again*

 

Erm I'm confused. Someone want to explain why the flute was natural to Rand with some spoiler tags maybe?

[A2597]

You've got PM. :)

[Always Sunny]

You're trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you admit you're reading ahead of your blog postings at least in part because you want to be armed for these kinds of debates. On the other, whenever someone calls you on one of your misinterpretations (which I really believe, at this point, are willful), you're all, "Well you need to wait until I get there!"

 

What is a willful misinterpretation? Seriously. If Character A says, "I love you," then you could interpret that to be the truth. You could say it was a lie. Or you could say that she really meant "the moon is made of cheese." The third one, to me, is a willful misinterpretation. The first two are, even though they are opposite ideas, could both be honest interpretations.

 

If the Wisdom is ignored by the Village Council then one could interpret that to mean she is incompetent and doesn't deserve to be a Wisdom. Or maybe the Village Council is full of hateful people. Or that she's too young for her position. All of those are valid ideas (a willful misinterpretation would be that there is no such thing as a Wisdom or that the Village Council isn't made up of men but ghosts-made-flesh). I don't think I ever go that extremely wrong.

 

So which is it? I've tried dealing with this stuff on your terms (for example, by making a real effort to avoid spoilers, even though a spoiler or two would very often immediately resolve a question in my favor). But it's time for you to step to the plate and participate in an honest debate, or acknowlege that other people have read further and more closely, and may have greater insight into these books.

 

I think I've acknowledged that most of the people on this forum have read more than me. The people here have no doubt looked way more closely at the text than I have. Do you realize how many entries pop up when I google "Wheel of Time"? Lots. So many people over so many years dedicated so many hours reading and writing about this series. I'm not the first. I'm not the last. And, surely, I'm not the only one to be bothered by the gender politics in this story.

 

But I'm still here. I'm still reading in spite of (nearly) everyone saying that I'm doing it wrong. I am at your metaphoric plate. We're just arguing if I've swung strikes or balls.

 

Besides, I'm not all that interested in a debate. I don't want to fight over it, you know? I don't want to be on one side with you and everyone else on the other. I want to post my opinions. I want to discuss them without any competitiveness to it. I'd like someone to say, "yes, you're wrong here but somewhere in book 2 you'll find out why. And you're going to love it!"

 

Instead I get what you've read in this thread. "You're wrong because you don't understand subtext. You're wrong because you don't have enough experience in reading epic fantasy. You're wrong because you're bringing personal biases into the reading. You're wrong because you're willfully misinterpreting the story." I get it. Everyone thinks I'm wrong. It probably pisses everyone off, too, that I don't admit it.

 

Well, guess what? I know that I'm wrong about some things. Some of my assumptions have been proven wrong. But the ones I'm sticking to, the concept of sexism in Two Rivers and some others, are the ones everyone is up in arms about. I get it. No one will be happy with me until I agree with everything they say.

 

I'm still here. I'm still reading and posting. I'll keep it up until I get bored or the scary administrators shoo me away. When something appears in the story that proves me wrong I'll write about it. Until then, I'll keep on keeping on.

 

But I am not without a fair mind ("Ha!" I imagine you saying). I'll be completely cool with you, randsc, using spoilers from wherever you want in the series. If the only way you're comfortable discussing things with me is if you ruin all the surprises in it then that's okay. Let's do this on your terms, then.

 

After reading your response, I'd have to say you're intentionally misreading it to keep women down, rather than reading it as it is. But eh...we'll just let you keep reading.

 

Well, thank you A2597. Now that I have your permission to keep reading I think I shall do just that. Where would I be without you?

 

Maybe I'm missing the subtext here, but I detect a slight hint of condescension in your post. But as people have pointed out, I'm not too good at the subtext thing. So maybe I'm wrong.

 

Even the Amyrlin Seat needs approval from local lords before taking action (approval almost always given, sure).

 

I'd just like to point out that's nothing to do with gender. If the Amyrilin Seat was a King, he'd still have to be careful not to rub nobles up the wrong way or he'd end up with a civil war on his hands. Also, it would be local ladies, not just lords

 

No, you are right. Getting approval from local lords before commanding that lord's vassals has nothing to do with gender. A respected foreign king would still have to do so just as much as the Amyrlin. Absolutely. I was simply pointing out that one of the major female powers in the world doesn't have absolute control but rather a web of soft power. She doesn't command vast armies but rather heavily influences those that do. And so far I haven't encountered any non-Aes Sedai Ladies but I assume the rules apply to them, too. But, again, this happens later in the story so I don't want to dwell on it too much.

 

Just a heads up, the Amyrlin seat has a role a heck of a lot like that of the Pope during the Middle-Ages - is selected by a council, rules her own city-state and has tremendous political influence anywhere her "religion" is followed (in this case, where Aes Sedai are respected, not truly a religious thing). Like the Pope, there are places where the Amyrlin is not well thought of, and places where she is outright hated, but even to them she is still the leader of a powerful political body. Also like the Pope of the Medieval era, she has no technical authority outside of Tar Valon/Vatican or Aes Sedai/Religious matters, but almost anyone in any of the nations that respects her would be willing (or at least feel obligated to) do anything she asks.

 

I've picked up on the Amyrlin Seat/Pope similarities. And I know this isn't the real world but this is the time when the Protestant kingdoms broke away from the Holy See. Maybe Shienar wouldn't go the way of Germany but Andor looks like it might, what with half the people wearing the white ribbons. But, as I said earlier, this is a discussion for a later day! Maybe even another thread, too. A new one for the Great Hunt. But that's weeks from now, I think.

[Puny]

I think people get so upset is because it seems that you´ve already decided that WoT is filled with sexism and that the women are still the weaker sex or have more power and so on, and even if there will be some blatantly clear examples showing that it isn´t so, you´ll ignore it cause you´ve already decided in advance. I say it seems, not saying it is. But if it is so, I can understand that people are upset.

Just because one society in the world is more dominated by women or men doesn´t mean the world is it. Hmm lemme explain. For me Randland is a land where the women has power, and control hidden and open(even if it´s hidden it´s still control). In Randland there will be alot of places where women have obvious power, (Aes Sedai, The Kin) in other nations it will be the men, in others still it will be the women that give the men power over themselves cause they choose it (Saldaea) but worldwide women do have more power.

 

I do hope that changes though so men get up with the women, one of the books themes is balance after all. So let us all be balanced when discussing this. Gn all. =)

[randsc]

I can recognize a lost cause when I see it. I'm done.

[yoshinobu]

This thread is so much fun ... even the arguing is fun. I like this keep going sunny! Your posts are pretty awesome, plus your right where I am on my reread so its cool seeing what your seeing and then what im seeing.

[Mighty Chin]

Right there with you randsc

[A2597]

Well, thank you A2597. Now that I have your permission to keep reading I think I shall do just that. Where would I be without you?

 

Maybe I'm missing the subtext here, but I detect a slight hint of condescension in your post. But as people have pointed out, I'm not too good at the subtext thing. So maybe I'm wrong.

 

Not condescending, just bordering on frustration. Discussions are fun when there is a little ebb and flow, but there hasn't been any - and I'll admit, I do have strong opinions in debates (Be they social, political, religious, or just for fun as this one is.

 

The pages of the books, and the many, many examples listed here have shown that women and men are social equals in this world. In ways, women have more power, and in ways, men do. Just as naturally happens I'll add. Taking your example of women in the village being housewives, and the men working the field...well, yes. The fields are (in general) a more physically more demanding task, and (in general) men will be better suited to it. However the men cannot work the fields if the home is not maintained, there are a multitude of task that are done in order to enable the men to work out there, and the women do those tasks. That's the way that makes the most sense for this particular agrarian society, and the men are appreciative of their wives work. Any man who wasn't would find himself in a boatload of trouble, or at the very least without a hot meal and clean cloths.

 

There are people that break that mold, Tam and Rand for example, who do both housework and fields. And there are times when the women help in the fields (Specific example from Robert Jordan is during sheep shearing, although I imagine there would be others).

 

That's just one example, but over the course of this thread almost every single instance you have mentioned has been analyzed, and reasons given for why women are social equals - and yet you insist that women are not. They do not always hold the same jobs as men - but that is their choice, not their requirement.

 

I suppose I'll just ask this. Based on where you are in the books now, do you still hold firmly to your insistence that women are not equal to men in this book series, or has that view changed slightly - and we're discussing your past thoughts? (And thus experiencing some level of frustration that is in actuality a moot point?

[Pilz]

Sunny, I hope you can get used to the 'flashback' style. RJ uses it excessively. Sometimes it is OK. Sometimes it is tedious and confusing.

[Suttree]

I honestly can't comprehend why some people are so up in arms or feel the need to headline the fact that they are cashing out of this thread. If you don't like it just continue on your way. Almost Sunny has admitted she's been proven wrong in some areas and in others is sticking to her opinion. That is what it comes down to, it is HER interpretation of a story she is reading for the first time. Everyone really needs to think back on all they picked up during subsequent rereads. If anything she has caught a very high number of important items(Rand's early channeling etc..) that most miss on their first go round. You don't have to agree with her posts and if you don't, it would be far more productive to provide quotes to the contrary instead of bashing or getting all bent.

[Erunion]

Suttree said it.

No, I don't think Always Sunny is right in her interpretation of the Two Rivers gender politics. So what? It's fun to read a different opinion. I'll only be concerned if Always Sunny reads the entire series and still has the same opinion on that particular subject. Then, I'll start a nice topic and we can all duke out the gender issues in tWOT. Until then, have fun. :D

[Shawnchan]

The first time I posted I almost got banned. This time a little more Cauthon is in order.

 

Most of us (me) have been reading this series longer than is healthy for most people. Some of us seem to be so offended by someone else s opinion. Look, we have been bombarded by minutia for 20 years. All the postulating, speculating etc. Eventually we decide that we are the be all end all of all things WOT. God forbid someone comes along with a different opinion. As soon as someone does we act like a bunch 'o dirty Whitecloaks. "Walk in the light" It is a command not a remonstration.

 

This is FUN. In the sage advice of Butthead, (Settle down Beavis.)

 

Something tells me that Sunny has purposely brought to life a wonderful opportunity for a new type of quality debate right under our collective noses; which seem to be so far up in the air that we may never catch wind of it.

 

Why can't we just have fun? After all this is not REAL life. It is a Fantasy story in a fantasy universe called the internet.

[UGAShadow]

I'm not sure why everyone is up in arms. The Two Rivers IS sexist. Maybe not the malicious sort but they are. The people there are the definition of romantic chivalry. It is a sexism that most women take no offense to, but it is there.

 

 

My argument isn't that they aren't sexist. Mine is that you are looking at this world through a modern view. This world is much more akin to pre-renaissance Europe than any thing you see today. Robert Jordan did not create perfect societies and I actually admire him for how realistic he did create most of them. In a culture where a person needs all the children he can to work his farm (the bigger the more) it is logical to think that the culture would come to protect women and keep the men at work. This is why agrarian societies tend to protect women, even if they rule (see some Native Americans). Now take the borderlands and specifically Shienar. In a land where you are constantly under attack by a malevolent force its also logical that the women become a protected figure. Men are usually more equipped to handle the heavy armor and arms that comes with a medieval setting (steel plate and swords are heavy). I don't think its a coincidence that the only female only fighting force exists in a society that wears no armor.

 

Are both of them sexist? Yes. Not any malevolent way but its there and it would probably arise in every place that is similar to those situations. Both are examples that set women on a pedestal.

 

 

Of course those are only two lands in the Wheel of Time. It is no coincidence that Robert Jordan used then in the first book. It was familiar and he had no idea if he would be allowed to continue his project. I've always figured its how he actually views women myself. It is actually one of my least favorite books in the series ahead of only Crossroads of Twilight.

 

 

 

Now onto other matters.

 

 

The Aes Sedai and the Amyrlin Seat do not play in the background because they are women. They manipulate from the shadows because they can channel. The Whitecloaks take it to the extreme. It is illegal to even been trained in the White Tower in Amadicia (where the Children of the Light are based in). They consider all channeling to be proof that a person is a darkfriend, no matter the gender. Tear outlaws channeling itself but for a different reason than Amadicia that will become apparent later on. Ever since the Breaking Aes Sedai have been mistrusted. Even if it was only the males that went insane and set off the Breaking. It is the reason the Aes Sedai take the three oaths. To prove to the world that they can be trusted.

 

 

 

 

 

As for your blog posts themselves I find myself smiling from time to time. I initially starting reading this series when I was about 15 (about 8 years ago) and I came to quite a few different conclusions than you. Does that make either of us wrong? No. But, then I read the Dragon Reborn first because a friend didn't want the book because it contained no dragons. So I have a unique view of the first two books

 

 

I certainly hope you finish the series. It is infinitely deep. I hope you keep up writing your thoughts out too. I want to see your reaction to some customs of a certain peoples. Some I think you'll love, others you'll probably blow a gasket over.

[Always Sunny]

And here is where I'm done reading this thread.

 

This is officially now the most boring thread on Dragonmount.

 

I'm very disappointed to say that I'm done reading it.

 

Im just gonna back away slowly at this time. Sunny is far to biased to have an open mind or an opinion worth reading.

 

I can recognize a lost cause when I see it. I'm done.

 

Right there with you randsc

 

 

Sad to see you all go. At least UncleButcher stuck in there. Thanks to you. And to all ya'll out there still reading. Going back through the pages of this thread I found only those five "I'm done!" posts but I saw much more "Keep up the good work, Sunny" posts. I don't think I've been as appreciative of the positive posts as I should be. So thanks, everyone!

 

I suppose I'll just ask this. Based on where you are in the books now, do you still hold firmly to your insistence that women are not equal to men in this book series, or has that view changed slightly - and we're discussing your past thoughts? (And thus experiencing some level of frustration that is in actuality a moot point?

 

That's a bit of a misleading question. We've left Two Rivers and the very few snippets of conversation that relates back home do not change my opinion of it. Since the narrative is now in the Shienar and Borderland region there aren't very many quotes about Two Rivers but those that come up I tend to quote because (in my perspective) they back up my thesis. I still say things are unequal in Two Rivers.

 

But the rest of the world? I don't know that much about it. Clearly, there are more women in positions of political and religious power. Take Fal Dara, for example. There is a city filled with mixed men and women but then there is a keep in the center. That keep has men's apartments and women's apartments. Each apartment is ruled by its own gender. Women have absolute power in their apartments. But Fal Dara itself is ruled by a Lord. Shienar is ruled by a king. Fallen Malkier was ruled by a king and now has an uncrowned king running around (possibly two uncrowned kings). Queen Morgase is in charge of Andor (either her or Elaida, we'll see). But I didn't like her introduction scene (you'll read about it next Monday, I think.) and it looks as if more than half her kingdom hates her.

 

So, yes, just as everyone has told me, things are different outside of Two Rivers. I have always believed you guys about that. I was looking forward to it! We are all hung up about my thoughts on Two Rivers, on how much I hate the extreme gender roles that are not forced on the people because everyone magically wants only to be what their gender role is. Women want to be housewives, always, never a gleeman or peddler or innkeeper or soldier. That pisses me off, you know? It's not that they want to live a simple life, no. I get that. I want that. But all of them. Every last one of them is happy with their lot in life? Me no like.

 

But we're catching up to the blog posts I've written during the sexism discussion. So, in an effort to keep readers, I had cut back on talking about such things. Instead, I think, I talk about the story structure, magic, and the characters themselves. After all, in a land where women are equal to men, in the land outside of Two Rivers, I can't go on harping about sexism, can I?

 

ETA:

 

Most of us (me) have been reading this series longer than is healthy for most people. Some of us seem to be so offended by someone else s opinion. Look, we have been bombarded by minutia for 20 years. All the postulating, speculating etc. Eventually we decide that we are the be all end all of all things WOT. God forbid someone comes along with a different opinion.

 

Yes, I totally agree with this! People say that I have a bias, that I'm bringing baggage to this conversation that doesn't belong. I argue the opposite! I argue that people have invested nearly two decades of their lives into this story. They can't afford to be wrong about it. No one wants to be told something they've believed for half their life, something they've loved since childhood, is sexist.

 

I'm not attached to the story. I have no investment in it. I'm free to look at the ugly spots because I'm not afraid of ruining something special to me.

[UGAShadow]

I'm not sure if Shienar can only be ruled by a king. I'm too lazy to look it up. The borderlands are ruled by two queens and two kings though. And unless you have gotten to a key point in White Tower you still don't know everything about Malkier. You will find out more soon, unless you already have gotten to that point. If so, say so and we can discuss it.

 

 

 

As for the Two Rivers you have to understand how much in the middle of nowhere the place is. There is only one way in and out. The people there do not know that technically they are part of Andor. They haven't seen tax collectors in five generations. Taran Ferry people actually DO go out into the world beyond though. It probably is the most isolated place west of the Spine of the World. When you are raised a place where you know nothing of what you COULD be doing its much easier to do what you are expected to do.

[UncleButcher1980]

This is officially now the most boring thread on Dragonmount.

 

Sad to see you all go. At least UncleButcher stuck in there. Thanks to you. And to all ya'll out there still reading. Going back through the pages of this thread I found only those five "I'm done!" posts but I saw much more "Keep up the good work, Sunny" posts. I don't think I've been as appreciative of the positive posts as I should be. So thanks, everyone!

 

For the record I was never bored with your blogs or what you have to stay, just this thread which became a dull debate on sexism which seemed to be going nowhere. But there's been some decent posts recently (yours included though I don't necessarily agree with what you say), so yeah I kept on, and will keep on reading.

 

Your blogs though, I enjoy, if that's the right word. I'm not sure it is. You see, I still feel that you're not really into the books; a lot of your thoughts seem to focus on the negative things, things you don't like, things you find sexist. But you tell me you do enjoy them, so that's cool. And yes, I also feel you find too much sexism, like you seem to see it in minute situations where sometimes there may be other explanations. But again, I like reading the blogs, I like reading everybody's opinions when they're fair and unagressive, after all it would be incredibly dull if we all agreed. I even weigh in with my own thoughts sometimes but I try to stay away from that as I'm pretty crap at getting them across as you can probably tell and I probably come across as a bit rude, for which I apologise.

 

But I hope you do keep on reading, keep on enjoying the books, keep on posting your thoughts, keep on debating. All I'd say is maybe it would be nice to see some more positive thoughts, like maybe tell us what you like about the books.

 

 

 

EDIT: Just remembered it was all the talk of which was correct - he or they - that bored me.

[David Selig]

So, yes, just as everyone has told me, things are different outside of Two Rivers. I have always believed you guys about that. I was looking forward to it! We are all hung up about my thoughts on Two Rivers, on how much I hate the extreme gender roles that are not forced on the people because everyone magically wants only to be what their gender role is. Women want to be housewives, always, never a gleeman or peddler or innkeeper or soldier. That pisses me off, you know? It's not that they want to live a simple life, no. I get that. I want that. But all of them. Every last one of them is happy with their lot in life? Me no like.

What about Egwene? She certainly was not happy with simple life in the village, that's why she left. Unlike the boys, who only left because the Trollocs were trying to kill them.

[Suttree]

I'm not sure if Shienar can only be ruled by a king. I'm too lazy to look it up. The borderlands are ruled by two queens and two kings though.

 

 

Yes it can, Shienar is a Monarchy that can be ruled by either a King or Queen as are all the borderlands I believe. In fact formed early in the War of the 100 Years, Merean Tihomar was the first Queen of Shienar. As you mentioned out of the four remaining borderland countries two are ruled by a Queen.

[A2597]

 

I suppose I'll just ask this. Based on where you are in the books now, do you still hold firmly to your insistence that women are not equal to men in this book series, or has that view changed slightly - and we're discussing your past thoughts? (And thus experiencing some level of frustration that is in actuality a moot point?

 

That's a bit of a misleading question. We've left Two Rivers and the very few snippets of conversation that relates back home do not change my opinion of it. Since the narrative is now in the Shienar and Borderland region there aren't very many quotes about Two Rivers but those that come up I tend to quote because (in my perspective) they back up my thesis. I still say things are unequal in Two Rivers.

 

But the rest of the world? I don't know that much about it. Clearly, there are more women in positions of political and religious power. Take Fal Dara, for example. There is a city filled with mixed men and women but then there is a keep in the center. That keep has men's apartments and women's apartments. Each apartment is ruled by its own gender. Women have absolute power in their apartments. But Fal Dara itself is ruled by a Lord. Shienar is ruled by a king. Fallen Malkier was ruled by a king and now has an uncrowned king running around (possibly two uncrowned kings). Queen Morgase is in charge of Andor (either her or Elaida, we'll see). But I didn't like her introduction scene (you'll read about it next Monday, I think.) and it looks as if more than half her kingdom hates her.

 

So, yes, just as everyone has told me, things are different outside of Two Rivers. I have always believed you guys about that. I was looking forward to it! We are all hung up about my thoughts on Two Rivers, on how much I hate the extreme gender roles that are not forced on the people because everyone magically wants only to be what their gender role is. Women want to be housewives, always, never a gleeman or peddler or innkeeper or soldier. That pisses me off, you know? It's not that they want to live a simple life, no. I get that. I want that. But all of them. Every last one of them is happy with their lot in life? Me no like.

 

But we're catching up to the blog posts I've written during the sexism discussion. So, in an effort to keep readers, I had cut back on talking about such things. Instead, I think, I talk about the story structure, magic, and the characters themselves. After all, in a land where women are equal to men, in the land outside of Two Rivers, I can't go on harping about sexism, can I?

 

 

I wasn't intending it to be a misleading question, but you answered my intended question, which seems to be that the world outside the two rivers holds women as social equals? (By and large).

 

That being the case, I wonder if we've been having a debate on just the two rivers, or on the world. It would be entertaining to me if that were the case, a simple misunderstanding of the scope of the discussion. :D

 

 

 

And I'll add that I have been enjoying your posts, may not always seem that way, but I do. :) I don't understand the need for some people to state their departure, but eh...each their own. Myself, as long as you keep posting, I'll keep reading. And you have raised some interesting points, such as Whitecloaks. I was jaded against them from the get go, but that was due to pre-attained knowledge about the Whitecloaks. I also have a thing about zealots,which they obviously were. Anyone and everyone is a darkfriend...just reminds me of bullhorn guy yelling to everyone within earshot that they are sinners and gunna burn or something. Sure, their reasons are valid, but their actions are so....off putting.

[Erunion]

So, yes, just as everyone has told me, things are different outside of Two Rivers. I have always believed you guys about that. I was looking forward to it! We are all hung up about my thoughts on Two Rivers, on how much I hate the extreme gender roles that are not forced on the people because everyone magically wants only to be what their gender role is. Women want to be housewives, always, never a gleeman or peddler or innkeeper or soldier. That pisses me off, you know? It's not that they want to live a simple life, no. I get that. I want that. But all of them. Every last one of them is happy with their lot in life? Me no like.

 

I see where you're coming from there. Just some food for thought though - Rand grew up on a farm with Sheep and Tabac. That's his Daddy's farm, that's who he is and what he's expected to do. If it weren't for Winternight/etc, Rand would have ended up being a Sheepherder and a Tabac farmer. Because that's what's expected of him. Mat would have been a farmer and a horse-trader like his Dad. Perrin is an exception, as he is a member of a very large family, and the Blacksmith doesn't have a kid, Perrin was apprenticed to the Blacksmith when he was younger. He would have grown up to be a blacksmith, and been content about it. All of the boys had jobs that they were going to grow into, and didn't really have any other options, nor did they particularly care. Egwene was apprenticed to be a Wisdom because she was chosen by Nynaeve. However, she actually had a choice - she could have been a wisdom anywhere (and was even going to be one!). Yes, the Two Rivers, as a renaissance-era backwoods farming community has certain roles that everyone is expected to fill. Yes, these roles are split along gender lines. However, anyone, male or female, could buck that trend and do something else if they want to.

Yes, it's slightly sexist (everyone would be shocked in the Two Rivers by a woman blacksmith, or a male Wisdom), yet neither of the sexes has a dominant role. They have different, yet equal positions in the Two Rivers.

BTW, there's only one soldier in the Two Rivers (afaik), and that's Tam. When he left it caused a considerable shock to everyone involved, and everybody was surprised.

The Two Rivers has a subsistence farming economy, where 'specialist' roles other than the absolute necessities are rare. This type of economy leads to cultural stagnation, and discourages anyone from breaking their traditional roles. Even if there exists some lee-way, most people will stick to the jobs that their parents do. In the Two Rivers, these jobs are split along gender lines. Government, however, is equal. (As has been pointed out numerous times, and I think you understand)

Less "Magically wants to stick to gender roles", more "Uh, there's something else I can do? Really? Huh. Why would I want to do that?". And it applies to both men and women (they simply have different roles they are stuck in).

 

Later, however, when you get out of the backwoods (and into centers of population which do not rely on a subsistence farming economy, like the Two Rivers does), you will see women soldiers, peddlers, innkeepers (lots of these!), and even a women Gleeman or two!

[srbtarheel]

I just wanted to say that Sunny's conclusions are not unreasonable up to the point that her blog is at. I disagree with most of them, but I still enjoy reading her perspective, if anything it has made me go back and reconsider my own viewpoint of events in the first book. I do want to see if her opinions change about some characters and when other major characters are introduced, what she thinks of them. In short, keep reading and posting Sunny, most of us enjoy your blog, even if some of us disagree with you.

[White_star]

So, yes, just as everyone has told me, things are different outside of Two Rivers. I have always believed you guys about that. I was looking forward to it! We are all hung up about my thoughts on Two Rivers, on how much I hate the extreme gender roles that are not forced on the people because everyone magically wants only to be what their gender role is. Women want to be housewives, always, never a gleeman or peddler or innkeeper or soldier. That pisses me off, you know? It's not that they want to live a simple life, no. I get that. I want that. But all of them. Every last one of them is happy with their lot in life? Me no like.

What about Egwene? She certainly was not happy with simple life in the village, that's why she left. Unlike the boys, who only left because the Trollocs were trying to kill them.

which was actually the secondary reason, for Rand anyway(unsure about the other two). The primary reason why he left was to protect the village from further damage by the Fades and Trollocs coming back should he(they) have stayed.

[Byzantine279]

Well, calling the position of "Wisdom" sexist because it only allows for women is foolish, though most can't the reality is Wisdom's are supposed to be able to channel, otherwise they can't do what they are supposed to do, and men go insane if they channel, even unknowingly, so it would not be a wise idea to have a male Wisdom.

 

A female blacksmith is also generally not a good match because the upper body strength required to be a blacksmith is hugE, I'm not saying a Woman couldn't do the job, but that men are generally better suited for it (Its simple biology that men have greater muscle mass, don't ask me why I couldn't tell you)

[AvroChris]

I know it's approaching flogging a dead horse at the minute, but of the four Borderlands, Shienar is ruled by a King, Arafel by a King, but Kandor and Saldaea have Queens. In Saldaea, certainly, inheritance occurs irrespective of gender. Cairhien is ruled by whoever is politically adept and ruthless enough to get hold of the throne, man or woman. Arad Doman has, currently, a King and a Merchant's Council which co-operate in some way for the governing of the country, and over there merchants tend to be women. So yes, the wider world is much more equal

[Always Sunny]

Your blogs though, I enjoy, if that's the right word. I'm not sure it is.

 

I know exactly how you feel! I'm enjoying the books, right? But that isn't the right word for what I'm experiencing. The book seems to be full of negative things, things I don't like, things I find sexist. The same way my blog is filled with stuff you feel is way off. But I go along with it because, I dunno, something about the book makes me want to. It's probably why the books sold so well. Like fast food, they aren't all that great but they taste good and fill me up.

 

I like reading everybody's opinions when they're fair and unagressive,

 

I read that backwards my first time through. "I like reading everybody's opinions when they're unfair and aggressive." Sounded odd so I had to go back and reread it.

 

What about Egwene? She certainly was not happy with simple life in the village, that's why she left. Unlike the boys, who only left because the Trollocs were trying to kill them.

 

Yes, and that's why I love her. She's the exception, the one who doesn't fit in. I like her because she isn't like the "sheeple" back home.

 

Sheeple. I like that word. I'll have to start using it more.

 

That being the case, I wonder if we've been having a debate on just the two rivers, or on the world. It would be entertaining to me if that were the case, a simple misunderstanding of the scope of the discussion. :D

 

For me, the whole world was Two Rivers until recently. Then it became Andor. Then Andor and Shienar. That's where it is, now, a couple hundred pages into The Great Hunt. That is my whole world. I kept telling people not to bring in stuff from the future books because I could not effectively argue against it.

 

I've been arguing about the Women's Circle in Emond's Field (maybe even in all the villages in Two Rivers; all four of them) this whole time. I say that the Wisdom doesn't seem respected and someone responds "yeah, but what about the Empress of Babagaga who holds the Seven Swords of Sosorow?" What about her? We're not talking about her. I'm talking about this place and these people.

 

I think it got out of hand because I refused to back down and my opinions were unpopular. "Fight or flight" comes in and since this is a civilized world with administrators on our forums we can't fight. But that's just another one of my (probably unpopular) opinions.

 

I was jaded against them from the get go, but that was due to pre-attained knowledge about the Whitecloaks. I also have a thing about zealots,which they obviously were. Anyone and everyone is a darkfriend...just reminds me of bullhorn guy yelling to everyone within earshot that they are sinners and gunna burn or something. Sure, their reasons are valid, but their actions are so....off putting.

 

I recently finished reading, actually just before starting this series, a book called Dogs of God by James Reston. It's about the Spanish Inquisition, Christopher Columbus, and the Reconquista against the Moors. It's more pop history than scholarly but it's a good read if you want to learn about the real world Whitecloaks and Questioners.

 

Well, calling the position of "Wisdom" sexist because it only allows for women is foolish, though most can't the reality is Wisdom's are supposed to be able to channel, otherwise they can't do what they are supposed to do, and men go insane if they channel, even unknowingly, so it would not be a wise idea to have a male Wisdom.

 

This isn't what I've been arguing about. It isn't that only women can be a Wisdom. In fact, I think back at other pre-modern tribes with a priestess that blesses things and a chief that is in charge of stuff. He can't do things without the priestess's approval so she has a check on his power. That's what this reminds me of, this Wisdom and Mayor thing. But in reality, a priestess like that could be overwritten whenever the chief wanted. He might get deposed later but as the saying goes "it is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission." The Mayor will do what he wants to do and then later he'll use his politician magic to keep the Wisdom happy.

 

Again, this is all speculation. Nothing like this has happened in the books so far. There has been little political conflict on screen between the folks in Two Rivers so it's all guesswork.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway! I've got three new chapters up. They're all Rand, too. We've made our way down the Caemlyn Road to the capital city, leaving behind the flashbacks. I liked the flashbacks, to be honest. One of my favorite TV shows over this last ten years was Lost and if you've seen that show then you know it has a few flashbacks in it.

 

They've come across some Darkfriends, experienced some troubles, and seem to have found a "safe" stop to wait for the others. We'll get to them next time. So until then, happy readers, I give you this:

 

The Dark Waits, the Last Village, Caemlyn