If you could choose who ends up with whom...

[David Selig]

Turning to Elayne,I find nothing worthwhile about her. Throughout the series she's never done anything that wasn't motivated by her wants and to hell with the consequnces. She intrudes herself into the BA hunt which results, at least in part, in the deaths of numerous poeple (Couldin and Hammar at the hand of Gawyn, among others), the WT spliting and Siuan and Leanne being stilled. And all because she didn't want to be left behind.

The Tower split had nothing to do with Elayne. Gawyn being an idiot during it was his own fault, and it changed very little anyway.

 

Then there's her war to win the crown of Andor. I know that a lot of poeple disliked the Egwene/WT storyline, but at least she was trying to save the tower (and she was not motivated by personal desires; she was forced into being the Amrylin and once there, was only acting responsibly). Can anyone say that about Elayne struggle to win the crown of andor?

I can. It's pretty similar situation actually - both were up against incompetent puppets of the Shadow (Elaida/Arymilla) who'd have been disastrous in charge the Tower/Andor respectively.

 

She intitiated a war that nearly wrecked her country and, again,caused many deaths for anything beyond her own personal gain and sense of entitlement. If she had stepped aside, Dylin would most likely be queen and the country wouldn't have been nearly torn apart.

Elayne initiated a war? That's not what happened in my version, where Arymilla attacked Caemlyn. And she offered to step aside for Dyelin and Dyelin refused.

 

Elyane has never been motivated by anything but what is best for her.

 

A good illustration of this is when she meets Perrin and Faile in TOM. She starts off threatening them because of what happened in the Two Rivers when she should be thanking them for destroying the trolloc invasion and throwing out a small armoy of WCs with no help from the crown. Finally, someone stood up to her and told her to back off (IMHO, the best moment Faile has had) and then told her the truth and what does she do? She insists that she be given control over a part of her realm that she and her ancestors abandoned and doesn't want to grant Perrin a greater title than the other great houses. Why not, when he has done more to save her realm than anyone other person in Andor's history (at least so far as we know)? Because, it wouild anger the other houses and cause her problems.

Perrin has done more to save her realm than any other person in Andor's history? Seriously? All he did was organise the defeat a few thousands Trollocs, a force which the Andoran army could deal with easily. Rand defeated a comparable force of Trollocs who were right in Caemlyn, not in the back end of nowhere, and he disposed of a Forsaken to boot. Then, there are all Andoran Queens and generals over the history, many of whom have dealt with bigger threats than few thousand Trollocs who were so terrible at fighting that a bunch of villagers with no army or combat experience crushed them. One Queen defeated the jint armies of four kings invading Andor. Hell, Elayne herself has done a lot more to save Andor just by participating in finding and using the Bowl of the Winds.

 

And of course Elayne wouldn't want to do something that would cause her and her realm problems, that's the most natural thing in the world. She'd be a terrible Queen if she just disregarded all that because Perrin is Rand's buddy and defeated some Trollocs.

 

In short, Elayne is all about what's best for Elayne.

Right, that's why she put herself in mortal danger and was few seconds away from being killed to save Sheriam, Anaya and the other Aes Sedai trapped in a nightmare in TAR back in LOC. Or why she bonded Birgitte why she lay dying, risking the extreme grief of losing Warder or the severe punishment if Birgitte survived and the Aes Sedai caught on that an Accepted had bonded a Warder.

[randsc]

Children, children, don't argue about whether Egwene or Elayne is worse. It's like trying to choose sides in the Iran/Iraq War.

[Tud]

Regarding the issue od the tower split..re-read the section where Gawyn is musing about his role in the deposing of Siuan..He clearly states that Elayne's departure from the Tower was the motivating factor in his personal decision to fight for Elaida's faction. Also, i beleive that Elaida herself indicated that the rupture of relations with Andor was one of the reasons she moved on Siuan. As for Gawyn being an idiot, so what? He stated that her unexplained absence (along with that of Egwene) was what motivated his action, as well as causing Galad to become a White Cloak.

 

Turning to the issue of Perrin's efforts being greater than any other single person in andor, if you would re-read my post, you'll notice that I supplied the necessary caveat "at least that we are aware of." We don't know what else has happened in Andor's history because we haven't been told of any other moments of great danger to the realm aside form that battle where the Queen grabbed the standard and rode into the battle to rally the troops (and I hardly equate Cairhenen with trollocs. Last I checked losing a battle with Cairehen didn't end with you being dinner). In regards to any of the current Lords/houses, name any one who has done more than Perrin has to save the realm from external threat and as for the Andoran army being able to deal with the trollocs/White Cloaks..Perhaps they could have (Although it might have been a bit difficult since it seemed that there were a lot more than the few hundred that Rand dealt with and beyond that limited exposure, no one in Andor has any experience dealing with Trollocs), but where were they? What's the point of paying taxes for the up-keep of an army that isn't there to defend you when you need it. The Crown didn't do its job.

 

And as for Rand defeating the trollocs in Camelyn, he is the Dragon Reborn (making him the most dangerous man on the planet) and he used saidi, plus Nyaneve (to fight Rahvin) and Aviendha and a small army of Aiel to deal with only a few hundred (although even one is way too much in my book). Perrin defeated thousands of trollocs plus drove out the White Cloaks using only two Aes Sedai and local farmer and townsfolk (no outlanders at all) with no help from any force of super warriors or, in fact, any professional soldiers whatsoever. I'd say, his accomplisment was way more impressive.

 

As for the struggle for the Crown. I agree that Dylin refused to accept Elayne's offer to step aside, but so what? By that time, the war was goin full bore..The damage was done. All Dylin would have gotten out accepting would be a possible shortening of the duration of the struggle. But the dead would still be dead and the economy would still be weakened. If Elayne had not stepped forward and put herself up as a canidate or had publically renounced the throne, the great houses would have declared for Dylin whether she wanted it or not (this point was made both by ..I beleive, Pelivar when talking to Egwene and in that discussion about how she had hanged the plotters who had tried to put her on the throne as opposed to Elayne.

 

As for saving Sheriam, and the others and bonding Birgitte, I will concede the point that she did put herself in danger...However, don't you think that it is interesting that you can only bring one or two points where she acted in this manner as opposed to virtually everyone else (For one thing, Siuan was the first one to try to save everyone from the bubble of evil), doing that sort of thing time after time. Even Loial could name more times he's stepped up to the plate in such a situation.

 

tud

[David Selig]

As for saving Sheriam, and the others and bonding Birgitte, I will concede the point that she did put herself in danger...However, don't you think that it is interesting that you can only bring one or two points where she acted in this manner as opposed to virtually everyone else (For one thing, Siuan was the first one to try to save everyone from the bubble of evil), doing that sort of thing time after time. Even Loial could name more times he's stepped up to the plate in such a situation.

I brought up two points because those were the first that came to my mind and I thought they were enough to disprove your claim. But there are plenty of other examples - choosing to go to Tanchico to hunt the BA instead of staying with Rand and enjoying their fresh relationship back in TSR and staying in the Seanchan controlled lands around Falme for two months back in TGH to get Egwene out of captivity knowing what a huge risk it was.

 

As for Dyelin, she never wanted to be a Queen and says so repeatedly, so that was never an option. Besides, even if Dyelin wanted it and Elayne had supported her, there still would've been a succession war, since Arymilla had gathered a lot of the Houses and a big army on her side.

[Mr Ares]

Turning to the issue of Perrin's efforts being greater than any other single person in andor, if you would re-read my post, you'll notice that I supplied the necessary caveat "at least that we are aware of." We don't know what else has happened in Andor's history because we haven't been told of any other moments of great danger to the realm aside form that battle where the Queen grabbed the standard and rode into the battle to rally the troops (and I hardly equate Cairhenen with trollocs. Last I checked losing a battle with Cairehen didn't end with you being dinner). In regards to any of the current Lords/houses, name any one who has done more than Perrin has to save the realm from external threat and as for the Andoran army being able to deal with the trollocs/White Cloaks..Perhaps they could have (Although it might have been a bit difficult since it seemed that there were a lot more than the few hundred that Rand dealt with and beyond that limited exposure, no one in Andor has any experience dealing with Trollocs), but where were they? What's the point of paying taxes for the up-keep of an army that isn't there to defend you when you need it. The Crown didn't do its job.

The caveat "that we know of" is still pretty dubious - Perrin has not done a hell of a lot to save Andor. Others, including Elayne herself and Rand, have done a lot more. In point of fact, Perrin didn't save Andor from Trollocs. He saved the Two Rivers. The Trollocs were there to kill Fain, Fain was there to harry the TR in order to bring Rand back there. The Trollocs weren't planning to spread beyond that. As for battles with Cairhien not ending with you being dinner, this is something of a moot point. They can still end with you being dead, whether they eat you afterwards is rather unimportant. As for the point of paying taxes, bear in mind that the freeloaders of the TR haven't paid taxes in generations. The TR being hurt does not indicate a failure on the part of the army to protect the lives of taxpayers. The crown did its job well enough.

 

And as for Rand defeating the trollocs in Camelyn, he is the Dragon Reborn (making him the most dangerous man on the planet) and he used saidi, plus Nyaneve (to fight Rahvin) and Aviendha and a small army of Aiel to deal with only a few hundred (although even one is way too much in my book). Perrin defeated thousands of trollocs plus drove out the White Cloaks using only two Aes Sedai and local farmer and townsfolk (no outlanders at all) with no help from any force of super warriors or, in fact, any professional soldiers whatsoever. I'd say, his accomplisment was way more impressive.

The point at issue was who did the most to save Andor, not who had the most impressive victory.

 

As for the struggle for the Crown. I agree that Dylin refused to accept Elayne's offer to step aside, but so what? By that time, the war was goin full bore..The damage was done. All Dylin would have gotten out accepting would be a possible shortening of the duration of the struggle. But the dead would still be dead and the economy would still be weakened. If Elayne had not stepped forward and put herself up as a canidate or had publically renounced the throne, the great houses would have declared for Dylin whether she wanted it or not (this point was made both by ..I beleive, Pelivar when talking to Egwene and in that discussion about how she had hanged the plotters who had tried to put her on the throne as opposed to Elayne.

When Elayne returned to Andor, there was already a struggle for the throne. Even had she stepped aside in favour of Dyelin from her first day back in Andor, there would still be a civil war in progress.

[Tud]

Regarding Elayne's actions on Toman Head that really isn't a good example of Elayne being selfless. If you'll recall, she intially ran for it (Not that I blame her, Nynaeve certainly didn't) while Nyneave fought back and drove the Seanchen off. Afterwards, all she did was follow Nyneave's lead in the rescue attempt. Now you could say that that was selfless except for the fact that she really had no choice..What was she to do? Stike out on her own for Tar Valon? It was actually much safer to stick with Nyneave who was a much stroger channeler (when she was angry enough to overcome her block and the Seanchen seemed to be able to accomplish that better than anyone except Lan.*G*)

 

Turning to Dyelin, I'm well aware of the fact that she turned down the crown at least twice..(I actualy mad mention of the fact), however, if she had declared for the crown, there would have ben no war because it was already indicated that enough of the major houses supported her claim that Arymilla's cause would have collapsed (A point that was actually made by Elayne, among others).

 

As for who did more for Andor, the comparision doesn't involve Elayne (who did nothing more than try for the crown), but between Rand who liberated Camelyn (and the crown) from Rahvin and along the way destroyed the Trollocs Rahvin had deployed in an ambush and Perrin, who walked into a devil's cauldron of thousands of Trollocs and White Cloaks brought by Fain to destroy the Two Rivers (Which was then and still is a part of Andor). The comparision was made to make the point that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, not some simple head of a Great House like say, Dyelin or Pelivar whereas Perrin is just a citizen of Andor. Rand, being The Dragon Re-Born is off the table.The comparision is between Perrin and the other Lords/Ladies of Andor including the Crown (so far as we know). The fact that the troolocs where there to kill Fain is immaterial.They (and the white Cloaks) invaded Andor, they killed Andoran citizens, both of which are clear acts of war.

 

The arguement that the Two Rivers isn't part of Andor because several queens of Andor ignored it and were too weak to impose their rule their is also immaterial. For one thing, Elayne certainly considers it to be part of her realm. Ror another,the Crown's neglect or weakness doesn't relaese it form it's obligations to defend the soveriegnty of Andor or the safety of it's citizens. The arguement that because the Two Rivers didn't pay taxes (due solely to the fact that the Queens of Andor ignored it for generations) they don't deserve protection and that driving off an invasion in a remote area of the realm isn't important is analogous to the situation in 1943 when the Japanese seized the islands of Attu and Kiska. At the time, almost no one outside of Alaska knew the islands even existed and for sure the U.S. Goverment didn't spend a lot of time worrying about the welfare of the residents. That didn't relieve the U.S. Goverment from its obligation to respond to the invasion by mounting a counter attack to re-take the islands (which ultimately was fortunate since it led to a discovery about the Japanese Zero which led directly to the U.S. achieving air superiority in the Pacific theatre. The war turned in large part because one single bullet hit one single, vital part of one plane in a far off part of the U.S.).

 

The fact that the Two Rivers hadn't paid taxes for a very long time dosen't make them ingrates who don't deserve defense against an invasion of creatures who considered you dinner (and while the Cairehenen might kill a soldier in battle, they don't eat the body, nor are they wont to eat prisoners or non-combatants). The failure to pay taxes was solely due to the neglect of the Queens of Andor which went on so long that almost no one in the Two rivers even realized they were citizens of Andor. The neglect which caused this situation to occur does not relieve the Crown from it's obligations to provide defense for its citizens nor excuse it from fault in not doing so. Up until the invasion of Camelyn at the end of TOM and the seduction/compulsion of Morgase by Rahvin,no other event had occurred(again,to our knowledge..I'm not going to be hammered by claims based on facts which Mr. Jordan hasn't provided. That just not fair.*G*) which was so dangerous for Andor and no other Lord/Lady has done so much for the realm. Hence, he deserves Elayen's gratitude and elevation to the status of High Lord.

[Mr Ares]

Turning to Dyelin, I'm well aware of the fact that she turned down the crown at least twice..(I actualy mad mention of the fact), however, if she had declared for the crown, there would have ben no war because it was already indicated that enough of the major houses supported her claim that Arymilla's cause would have collapsed (A point that was actually made by Elayne, among others).

Therefore it follows that you should not blame Elayne for causing a war, but Dyelin. Had she declared, she could have brought the war to an end before it even began. If Elayne abdicated, it doesn't follow that Dyelin will declare, thus Elayne cannot force her to take the crown, and thus she cannot force her to end the war.

 

As for who did more for Andor, the comparision doesn't involve Elayne (who did nothing more than try for the crown), but between Rand who liberated Camelyn (and the crown) from Rahvin and along the way destroyed the Trollocs Rahvin had deployed in an ambush and Perrin, who walked into a devil's cauldron of thousands of Trollocs and White Cloaks brought by Fain to destroy the Two Rivers (Which was then and still is a part of Andor). The comparision was made to make the point that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, not some simple head of a Great House like say, Dyelin or Pelivar whereas Perrin is just a citizen of Andor. Rand, being The Dragon Re-Born is off the table.The comparision is between Perrin and the other Lords/Ladies of Andor including the Crown (so far as we know). The fact that the troolocs where there to kill Fain is immaterial.They (and the white Cloaks) invaded Andor, they killed Andoran citizens, both of which are clear acts of war.

The point of who did more to save Andor does involve Elayne. She did far more than just try for the corwn - she sought out and helped use the Bowl of the Winds, ending a perpetual summer which threatened the future of the species. Thus she helped save the life of every Andoran citizen, and indeed everyone in the world. To date, not even Rand has saved the world. So much for the vaunted Dragon Reborn. I'm sure he'll catch up in the next book, though. The Trollocs did not threaten the lives of everyone in the world. They did not threaten the lives of everyone in Andor. They threatened the TR. Perrin looked after his own, which is admirable, but he didn't protect anyone outside of the TR. Thus it is a far lesser achievement than Elayne's.

 

The arguement that the Two Rivers isn't part of Andor because several queens of Andor ignored it and were too weak to impose their rule their is also immaterial.

It's not one anyone is making. The TR is most definitely a part of Andor.

That didn't relieve the U.S. Goverment from its obligation to respond to the invasion by mounting a counter attack to re-take the islands (which ultimately was fortunate since it led to a discovery about the Japanese Zero which led directly to the U.S. achieving air superiority in the Pacific theatre. The war turned in large part because one single bullet hit one single, vital part of one plane in a far off part of the U.S.).

Of course, dear. The massive manpower reserves or industrial base of the US had nothing to do with achieving victory in the Pacific. It was all down to getting lucky shooting down a Jap plane. Never mind that the war was unwinnable for the Japanese right from day one.

 

Up until the invasion of Camelyn at the end of TOM and the seduction/compulsion of Morgase by Rahvin,no other event had occurred(again,to our knowledge..I'm not going to be hammered by claims based on facts which Mr. Jordan hasn't provided. That just not fair.*G*) which was so dangerous for Andor and no other Lord/Lady has done so much for the realm.

Perpetual summer. It threatened every nation with starvation, drought, and mass death. Perrin protected a backwater region, a region that those in charge were unaware was being threatened, but would have responded to the threat were they aware (and were they not ruled by one the Chosen, perhaps). Yes, Perrin deserves reward for his civic minded action. Yes, Andor did have an obligation to defend it's people and for reasons beyond its control was unable to fulfill that obligation in as timely a manner as would be desired. But he still only protected a backwater region comprising four villages and a bunch of farms. That is a long way from protecting the whole of Andor. In terms of the realm as a whole, Perrin did very little. And afterwards he did make himself a traitor, so Elayne not wanting to shower him with praise is understandable.

[Suttree]

She intrudes herself into the BA hunt which results, at least in part, in the deaths of numerous poeple (Couldin and Hammar at the hand of Gawyn, among others), the WT spliting and Siuan and Leanne being stilled. And all because she didn't want to be left behind.

 

Wait what? The WT split and subsequent fighting had had nothing to do with Elayne whatsoever. You do realize the BA was pulling strings on that from the start and cast the deciding vote in a rigged election to depose Siuan correct?

 

You have some very odd notions(Perrin doing more than anyone in Andor's history?!?! to use one example)that have little to no basis in the text.

[CauthonsLuck]

I just hope that Elayne dies in the last battle. She took up 300 pages per book with useless, obnoxious, talking. I just wanted it to go to Matt saving Moraine....or better yet, Rands point of view. Come on! What is he thinking!

[Maleshub]

The thing that had Elayne moving down the rankings for me was the droning and extended parts about the succession in Andor. Arad Doman was in much worse shape; but we get a couple of chapters that tell us that Rand set in motion the fix and that Alsalam was back to put things back in order to prepare the country for TG.

 

But with Andor and Elayne, we go into too much detail. And securing Andor's throne is nice; but there are more important parts of the lead up to TG that could have made the reading more worthwhile, most notably resolving the BT issue earlier and peace with the Seanchan.

[Tud]

Suttree, the point I was making about Perrin was that he has done more than any of the other vanilla Lords of the land to save Andor. As for the tower splitting b/c of Elayne haring off with Egwene and Nynaeve, her un-explained absence which led to the rupture of relations with Andor was quoted as one of the reasons that Elaida made her move. I never said it was the only reason, just one of the ones that was mentioned.

 

Turning to the actions of Elayne using the Bowl Of The Winds to save the world. Mr. Ares, you make it sound as if she was the only one there.That her efforts were the only reason the world didn't bake . As we all know, she wasn't. She wasn't even the strongest channeler involved (Nynaeve and Talaan share that honor, I think). I disregarded that entire situation for the same reason that I didn't include Rand in the list for an obvious reason..Saidar. The Bowl Of The Winds required Saidar to be utilized. Only a very small portion of the population have access to that power and that only through sheer chance. Comparing the accomplishments of a person which require saidar/saidin to those of a vanilla mortal is inherently unfair. You have to compare Perrin and Elayne's (or anyone else) service to Andor on a level playing field. In that situation, Perrin comes out ahead. What he accomplished didn't require anything more than leadership and guts. His efforts prevented an entire province of Andor from being de-populated. What has Elayne or any other Lord done that matches that? The argument that it was only the TR that was involved and therefore, Perrin's saving the TR wasn't all that important to Andor as a whole, ignores the fact that the Queen of Andor has a responsibility to ensure the safety of all of her subjects..All of them...In all parts of her realm. She (Morgase) failed in that responsibility, leaving an entire province to face oppresion,death and destruction on their own. As far as we know, no one else in all of Andor's history has saved an entire province of the realm from that kind of peril.

 

As for saving the entire world,you could make a better argument that,in fact, Mat should get the credit since he prevented Elayne and most of the Kin from getting killed by the gholam and prevented the bowl (among other treasures) from being carried off when he intervened in Ebou Dar. He also prevented her from being turned to the shadow when he rescued her (The future Queen of Andor), Eqwene (The future Amyrlin Seat and rescuer of the Tower from Seanshen attack)) and Nynaeve (The strongest Aes Sedai alive, one of the three strongest known female channelers, the discoverer of both the cure for stilling and the Ashamans' insanity and the future Queen of Malkir) from the BA when he blew a hole in the side of the Stone. (an action which was implied to have played a part in allowing the Aiel to successfully invade, resulting in the Fall of the Stone).

 

Turning to my side comment about WWII, I'm well aware of the waeknesses of the Japanese situation at the beginnng of WWII. However, it is only with hindsight that we can say with a certianty that Japan couldn't win. In point of fact, it was perfectly possible for Japan to have won..If they had caught the carriers in Pearl Harbor or defeated the US at Midway or Gaudacanal, the war would have turned out differently. Specifically, regarding the plane/bullet comment, I refer you to the Aktuan Zero incident. Look it up. Although there are counter arguments, the consensous is that the cutting of a Zero's oil line by a single small arms bullet fired from a man being staffed in the water at Dutch Harbor, Alaska on June 4Th , 1942 led to the development of tactics to defeat the Japanese in the air (destroying their only real advantage) and thrwart their goal of gaining an early strategic/tactical position of such magnitude that that they could withstand a war of attrition forcing the US to ultimately accept their conquests in the Pacific as a fait accompli.

[Mr Ares]

Turning to the actions of Elayne using the Bowl Of The Winds to save the world. Mr. Ares, you make it sound as if she was the only one there.

No, I don't. I said she helped use - that makes it pretty clear she didn't do it alone.

I disregarded that entire situation for the same reason that I didn't include Rand in the list for an obvious reason..Saidar. The Bowl Of The Winds required Saidar to be utilized. Only a very small portion of the population have access to that power and that only through sheer chance. Comparing the accomplishments of a person which require saidar/saidin to those of a vanilla mortal is inherently unfair.

So? Remove Perrin's assets - such as being ta'veren. Suddenly saving everyone becomes much harder, as the people don't automatically follow you. It's also tangential to your point - that Elayne helped save the entire world, and that Perrin helped save a backwater region of a country means that Elayne has the greater achievement in absolute terms. She has done more for the people of Andor in absolute terms. If you want to say that Perrin's achievements relative to his abilities are greater you can, but that's moving the goalposts. Even then, ta'veren is a much rarer quality than channeling, so even if you try to compare their services to Andor on a level playing field (an immensely subjective judgement) Perrin comes out behind Elayne. Also, those same lords aren't ta'veren, while Perrin is, so you must compare their achievements on a level playing field. he had access to massive advantages they didn't. So even if his achievements were greater in absolute terms than those of any given lord or lady, in relative terms he loses a lot of ground to them.

His efforts prevented an entire province of Andor from being de-populated. What has Elayne or any other Lord done that matches that?

Well, anyone who has prevented the invasion of Andor by a hostile power has to rank equally high. Perrin's achievement looks rather modest in that light. Any border lord who has repelled raids from neighbouring countries, any general who has won a war. They've all done as much as Perrin.

The argument that it was only the TR that was involved and therefore, Perrin's saving the TR wasn't all that important to Andor as a whole, ignores the fact that the Queen of Andor has a responsibility to ensure the safety of all of her subjects..All of them...In all parts of her realm.

No, it simply doesn't consider it particularly relevant to the point being made. It was not about the responsibilities of the crown, it was about who has done the most to protect Andor. The Trollocs and Whitecloaks were not a threat to Andor as a whole, so Perrin cannot be said to have saved Andor as a whole. It puts his achievement in perspective. He is not a mighty hero who single handedly saved everyone in Andor, he is a hero who saved everyone in a small backwater province of Andor. A sack of Caemlyn could probably result in similar casualty figures to everyone in the TR dying, so any general or lord who has prevented the capital being sacked has an achivement on par with Perrin's. Therefore Elayne, again, comes out ahead, as the siege of Caemlyn could likely have ended with a sacking (hey, if the enemy has to overcome the walls by force, what do you think is going to happen?).

 

As for saving the entire world,you could make a better argument that,in fact, Mat should get the credit since he prevented Elayne and most of the Kin from getting killed by the gholam and prevented the bowl (among other treasures) from being carried off when he intervened in Ebou Dar.

Not really. That's really stretching.

 

Turning to my side comment about WWII, I'm well aware of the waeknesses of the Japanese situation at the beginnng of WWII. However, it is only with hindsight that we can say with a certianty that Japan couldn't win.

No, it was clear to a lot of people at the time. Including some of the Japanese.

In point of fact, it was perfectly possible for Japan to have won..If they had caught the carriers in Pearl Harbor or defeated the US at Midway or Gaudacanal, the war would have turned out differently.

Unlikely. It might have taken longer and cost more lives, but the end result was never in doubt. Japan didn't have the manpower or the industrial base to stop America. Their only hope was for America to not want to fight. So attacking the Yanks at Pearl Harbour and thus really pissing them off was always a bad idea. Bear in mind that the japanese couldn't do anything about the East Coast of the US, so they were quite capable of making new ships out of range of the japs, and then sending them into the Pacific. In such numbers as the Japanese couldn't stop them. The Americans could achieve air superiority through technical innovation or sheer weight of numbers - fail to shoot down that one plane and it really makes no odds (after all, there are a lot more Americans than Japanese). Japan loses, America wins. Nothing short of an act of God could stop that happening. In a war of attrition, Japan really couldn't hope to win. And with Germany out the war, and thus Japan having no allies while Britain and Russia turn their gazes Eastwards as well, it's clear that any idea of Japan winning the war is pure fantasy.

[Tud]

In point of fact, Mat saving the world isn't such a stretch since without him saving Elayne,Egwene and Nynaeve in Tear, the bowl of the winds wouldn't have been recovered at all. He saved Andor by saving Elayne thereby preventing a succession war even worse than that which occurred. On another note, just how could Elayne and others have saved the world if the Bowl Of The Winds was in the hands of the Shadow ? Mat's actions, not their's, prevented that. And we don't even have to get into the fact that it was Mat who made finding the darn thing possible in the first place. Finally, there's the point that if he hadn't saved Elayne, she wouldn't have been there to help make the bowl work and without her srength, operating the bowl would have been impossible.

 

I'f say, his actions in the matter, were vital.

 

As for the assertion that Camelyn would've been sacked if Arymilla had won, there's not much evidence of that possibility since the besieigers were Andorans interested in ruling Andor, rather than conqueringthe nation and looting the city...Just what kind of an imprsession do you think sacking Camelyn would have made to the rest of the country (and Especially the Great Houses)? It would be in Arymilla's best interests to prevent that sort of thing happening, if only for her own well being.

 

On the point of some Lord driving back a border incursion, there's a great deal of difference in preventing the wresting of a province from Andor by Murandy, etc and an invasion by creatures that want to eat everyone..The first would simply have removed land from one realm to the other.Aside from the intial fighting, no death/destruction need or would likely occur. (again, as in the seige, it would be counter productive to kill everyone or destroy everything..What whould be the purpose of seizing the land then? After all, these people aren't Mongols intent on creating more pasture land for their horse herds. The second situation, on the other hand, would result in the the complete death and destruction of the entire district.

 

As for it not being a level playing field because Perrin is ta'veren. Consider the fact that the Lords of the Land and the Queen control large armies and vast wealth.They have the absolute wherewithal to fight off an invasion. More importantly, they also have the right (in the minds of the citizens) to do so. They have the right to command. Perrin had none of these things. He was dealing with his peers..stubborn, independant TR residents who had no recollection of being commanded.On top of that he is just a young man who everyone could still remember being a kid..makes it kinda hard to give commands in that situation (It is one of the underlying reasons that the US Army had a policy of transferring any enlisted man who recieved a battle field commission to a new unit). Perrin had to overcome all of that whereas the Lords and the Queen not.I'd say being ta'veran just served to level the field, not tilt it in Perrin's favor.

 

On the subject of WWII, it was far from a forgone conclusion that Japan would lose. Some poel did, indeed, think that..including some Japanese (Including Yammamoto), but they were in the minority. The majority didn't think that bthe US had th stomach for a real fight. Yammamoto knew better which was why he so insisitant that the Pearl Harbor attack take out the carriers and so disappointed when they failed.The idea was to cripple the US for so long that by the time we recovered the task would be too daunting and we'd not have the stomach for it. If you doubt that go read any of the books on the events leading up to and just after Pearl Harbor (I liiked "But Not In Shame", myself). Yamamoto implied such when he made his famous observation that instead of knocking the US out of the war, they'd just served to wake the sleeping giant.

[David Selig]

Perrin comes out ahead. What he accomplished didn't require anything more than leadership and guts. His efforts prevented an entire province of Andor from being de-populated. What has Elayne or any other Lord done that matches that?

 

This entire province in terms of population consisted of the grand total of four villages, one of which was totally wiped out by the Trollocs. So in the end Perrin saved the population of 3 villages. Admirable, but in the grand scheme of things not that remarkable. Tigraine and Morgase achieved more simply by getting married to Taringail and stopping the constant wars with Cairhien. Not to mention that he heavily used his ta'veren ability and his Dreamwalking to do it.

[Suttree]

Perrin comes out ahead. What he accomplished didn't require anything more than leadership and guts. His efforts prevented an entire province of Andor from being de-populated. What has Elayne or any other Lord done that matches that?

 

This entire province in terms of population consisted of the grand total of four villages, one of which was totally wiped out by the Trollocs. So in the end Perrin saved the population of 3 villages. Admirable, but in the grand scheme of things not that remarkable. Tigraine and Morgase achieved more simply by getting married to Taringail and stopping the constant wars with Cairhien. Not to mention that he heavily used his ta'veren ability and his Dreamwalking to do it.

 

I'll throw another name, Gareth Byrne. His military service we are told about far outweighs anything Perrin has done. David beat me to defining the 2Rs as well. Tud you keep putting a number "conditions" in attempting to make your point sound more reasonable and it still doesn't work. There are at least 3 or 4 Andorans that rate ahead of Perrin in this debate. You really have no ground to stand on in this one mate.

 

In addition by your argument Perrin's 2Rs accomplishment shouldn't count because he had the help of AS and would have been overrun without them.

[Tud]

Suttree,

 

I will grant you points for both Gareth Byrne and Tigraine, because both did their duty for Andor (Tigraine's is the more impressive IMHO because she gave up so much based solely on a foretelling), but that still doesn't overcome my point about the TR..It isn't important that there only four villages involved (as Davi Selig pointed out). What's important is where those villages were located and who had the responsibility to provide their protection. The death of even one single Andoran citizen that could have been prevented but for the neglect of the Queen is inexcusable. The Queen's enjoyed the perks of the throne but they failed their duty towards their subjects.

 

The fact is that I resent Elayne's attitude towards the man who saved an entire province's population for her and who foiled both an invasion by trollocs (100 or 10,000 is immaterial. An invasion is an act of war, no matter where and must be responded to or the kingdom has no meaning) and White cloaks. I resent her lack of gratitude to the man who led the effort to save a portion of her kingdom that she had failed to protect . A small insignificant portion of her kingdom that she apparently felt strongly enough about to consider hanging the man who saved it as a rebel.

 

BTW, give Bryne props for his abilities,but you have to acknowledge that he had years of training before he took the office of Commander In Chief of Andor's army. Perrin had no such training and no time to acquire it yet he still rendered great service to the kingdom of Andor and the Crown and deserves every accolade Faile asked for. including being named High Lord of the Two Rivers.

 

The initial point was who should end up with whom and I still feel that Min is the best match since she has no agenda whatsoever (aside from loving him) whereas both Elayne and Aviendha do

[Mr Ares]

In point of fact, Mat saving the world isn't such a stretch since without him saving Elayne,Egwene and Nynaeve in Tear, the bowl of the winds wouldn't have been recovered at all. He saved Andor by saving Elayne thereby preventing a succession war even worse than that which occurred. On another note, just how could Elayne and others have saved the world if the Bowl Of The Winds was in the hands of the Shadow ? Mat's actions, not their's, prevented that. And we don't even have to get into the fact that it was Mat who made finding the darn thing possible in the first place. Finally, there's the point that if he hadn't saved Elayne, she wouldn't have been there to help make the bowl work and without her srength, operating the bowl would have been impossible.

Mat saving the world is still a stretch. He would be dead if not for Verin, Moiraine, and anyone else who helped stop the dagger from killing him. Moiraine and Verin would quite likely have died at some point if not for their Warders - so by your reasoning, Tomas and Lan saved the world by saving Verin and Moiraine so they could save Mat, so he could save the girls, so they could use the Bowl of the Winds. Sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? And then you go further back, with anyone who saved Lan and Tomas, anyone who has ever saved them... Mat saved the girls, the girls saved the world. Thus Mat's contribution to saving the world is only indirect, while the girls, by being involved in changing the weather, were directly responsible. Also, we don't have to get into the fact that without Mat they wouldn't have found the Bowl, for the simple reason that it isn't a fact. The kin knew where the Bowl was, Elayne and Nynaeve found the Kin. Without Mat, nothing changes - they still find it.

 

As for the assertion that Camelyn would've been sacked if Arymilla had won, there's not much evidence of that possibility since the besieigers were Andorans interested in ruling Andor, rather than conqueringthe nation and looting the city...

It is the sort of thing that soldiers do when they take a city in a siege. Arymilla cannot guarantee the discipline of all her men.

 

On the point of some Lord driving back a border incursion, there's a great deal of difference in preventing the wresting of a province from Andor by Murandy, etc and an invasion by creatures that want to eat everyone..

In terms of casualty figures? Arguable. The eating or otherwise is immaterial. People die either way. If we are trying to gauge Perrin's achievements relative to others, then we should only consider the eating if it is materially relevant. If people would die from extensive border raiding in as great a number as Trollocs attacking a couple of villages, then the two achievements have to be considered on a par with one another.

 

On the subject of WWII, it was far from a forgone conclusion that Japan would lose. Some poel did, indeed, think that..including some Japanese (Including Yammamoto), but they were in the minority. The majority didn't think that bthe US had th stomach for a real fight. Yammamoto knew better which was why he so insisitant that the Pearl Harbor attack take out the carriers and so disappointed when they failed.The idea was to cripple the US for so long that by the time we recovered the task would be too daunting and we'd not have the stomach for it. If you doubt that go read any of the books on the events leading up to and just after Pearl Harbor (I liiked "But Not In Shame", myself). Yamamoto implied such when he made his famous observation that instead of knocking the US out of the war, they'd just served to wake the sleeping giant.

I disagree, it was a foregone conclusion. A few people had the foresight to see it, though many did not. While the diea was to cripple the US, the fundamental flaw in the plan was their underestimation of the American will to fight. If they were accurate in their assessment, then the fight was winnable. If the Americans were not willing to give up (they weren't) then the fight was not winnable. Yes, the Japanese had a plan. But the success of that plan relied on a fundamental underestimation of the American will to fight, and bearing in mind the inaccuracy of that belief it is hard to view with any degree of credibility claims that Japan was going to beat America.

 

I will grant you points for both Gareth Byrne and Tigraine, because both did their duty for Andor (Tigraine's is the more impressive IMHO because she gave up so much based solely on a foretelling), but that still doesn't overcome my point about the TR..It isn't important that there only four villages involved (as Davi Selig pointed out). What's important is where those villages were located and who had the responsibility to provide their protection. The death of even one single Andoran citizen that could have been prevented but for the neglect of the Queen is inexcusable. The Queen's enjoyed the perks of the throne but they failed their duty towards their subjects.

Given that the point you made was that Perrin had done more for Andor than anyone else, the size of the TR is a relevent consideration. What he did for Andor was save three villages and a few farms. Compare that to what others have done for Andor - Rand, Elayne, Tigraine, Morgase, Bryne, etc. - Perrin's achievements pale into insignificance. And how many deaths could have been prevented? There is no reason to station soldiers near the TR. So when word gets out of Trollocs, you need to rally an army and march it to the TR. That takes time, time in which the Trollocs will be doing what they were doing anyway. It's not neglect, it's simple practicality.

 

The fact is that I resent Elayne's attitude towards the man who saved an entire province's population for her and who foiled both an invasion by trollocs (100 or 10,000 is immaterial. An invasion is an act of war, no matter where and must be responded to or the kingdom has no meaning) and White cloaks. I resent her lack of gratitude to the man who led the effort to save a portion of her kingdom that she had failed to protect . A small insignificant portion of her kingdom that she apparently felt strongly enough about to consider hanging the man who saved it as a rebel.

If you read the book again, you will note that Elayne thought to herself that she had no intention of hanging Perrin. Furthermore, the good Perrin did does not cancel out the bad. He was still a rebel. Any gratitude he deserved for saving those three villages has to be tempered by the knowledge that he then raised an army, raised the flag of Manetheren, as well as his own banner, and closed his doors to Andoran officials. An invasion of Trollocs may be an act of war, but what is "Tai'shar Manetheren" if not an act of rebellion? So he saved her citizens only to steal them and her land from her? And she should be grateful? No. It is simply not reasonable. Considering the size of the TR, a title like High Lord already seems to border on being so grandiose as to be absurd, but to give that same title and priveleges to a traitor doesn't seem at all reasonable. I, for one, am far more comfortable with the compromise position they arrived at than I would be with either extreme (Perrin the traitor gets everything he asks for or Perrin the hero gets executed).

[The Fisher King]

But Perrin has The Coolest Hammer!!!

 

Top THAT!!!

 

 

Fish

[mb]

About the Kin, Nynaeve's & Elayne's finding them was through Mat's innkeeper.

Slight chance for Nynaeve & Elayne to find them on their own or for their Aes Sedia companions to find them. Best chance for either might be much later.

 

About Perrin's hammer, it is relatively late in the series when he got his current one.

[Alric]

So..... anyone got some fun couplings?

[Nygma]

Terrible matches and their most excellent replacements:

 

1) Egwene and Gawyn. Terrible matchup. No sparks, unrealistic, little trust. Egwene still thinks in terms of Gawyn being an embarrassment and liability to her office. And let's face it, he really is. Really, I don't see many good pairings for Egwene. She needs someone strong-willed who is also willing to stand in her shadow. Gareth Bryne would be a decent match. Too bad he's taken. Egwene's best match is the stole.

 

2) Morgase and Tallanvor - terrible. Morgase and Logain - much better!

 

3) The love square needs to get resolved to a line. Rand and Aviendha it is.

 

 

Excellent matches already:

 

1) Mat and Tuon. These two are way too similar to be kept apart. Everyone recognizes Mat's a rogue, but few seem to realize Tuon - with her rebellious childhood; refusal to listen to what's proper from Suroth, Anath, Selucia, and Setalle Anan; and enthusiasm for hells, fights, and wild rides - isn't much different. One never breaks her word, the other never breaks his promise. Both always do what they believe they must. Both rely heavily on their wits. And oh yes, there are sparks.

 

2) Lan and Nynaeve. This match just really seems to work.

 

 

Could be tweaked:

 

1) Perrin and Faile. This is a pretty good match. But if Perrin really wanted the simple life, why not with Aludra? Both are really attached to their art and could be content just making things together.

 

 

Off-the-cuff matches:

 

1) Min and Thom

 

2) Gawyn and Leane

 

3) Tam and Moiraine

 

4) Elayne and Dobraine

[Tud]

I wonder why my resonse to Mr Ares last post didn't stay on the thread? I didn't say anyting antagonistic or include a spoiler. Perhaps I made amistake in the posting process. Weird. Ah well, the discussion was way off topic anyway. Getting back to relationships, I've always liked the Mat/Tuon match for the reasons stated by Nygma plus the fact that they both see and don't see how much they need each other..She feels safer with him than with her entire contingent of the DeathWatch Guard, she wants to clean him up and teach him proper manners but then doesn't really...Mat worrying about her, but determined not to play by her rules.

 

Oh, in response to the point about Mat saving the world being a stretch it just occurred to me that he has or least, he's made it possible for Rand to have a chance to do so..According to Min w/o morraine, Rand stands no chance of defeating the Dark One. According to Morraine's viewing, she could only be rescued if Mat came along as he was of only person who knew where the Tower Of Ghenjie was located and the only who had the knowledge needed to succeed (Perrin knew what it was ,but not where and Birgitte knew where it was but didn't have the right tools to defeat the Snakes and Foxes.).

 

So, him saving the world ins't such a stretch after all.*G*

 

tud

[Randommer]

I really like the matches as they are (though I do wish Rand would just stick with Min, or at least ditch Elayne. It's not that I dislike her; it's just not a relationship.) But random other ones that would be cool...

 

I agree with the two or three who said Rand and Nynaeve would be good. They just care about each other so much, and they make such a powerful team. (Also, I read an epically amazing fanfic about them once... Yeah I am that cool.)

 

Moiraine and Perrin - I really got a kick out of that weird TDR tension.

 

Mat and Aludra

 

UCK!! to anyone who said Rand and Egwene should have worked out.

 

And forshame to the person who didn't like Morgase-Tallanvor (Morgavor? I like it.) I always thought their interludes were great. Their chapters are odd in terms of style; as if both RJ and BS decided to ditch the whole fantasy thing for a few minutes and pretended they were romance writers. I find that weirdly awesome

[Luckers]

Demandred and Rand. All that 'hatred' is just a mask. :)

 

I wonder why my resonse to Mr Ares last post didn't stay on the thread? I didn't say anyting antagonistic or include a spoiler. Perhaps I made amistake in the posting process.

 

Yeah, you didn't get modded or anything. DM's been struggling a little under the recent deluge of visitors with the cage match and the newsletter, maybe thats why.

[dingbat]

Throw in a pinch of Game of Thrones and go with Gawyn and Galad.