Rand al'Thors, Adoptive Mother was a Dark Friend

[moroten]

Luckers wrote :The Dead do not belong to the Dark One.

 

Well Ishy told Rand many times over and over again, I believe even Lanfear did when she met him in Tear in the 4th book. That it is useless to refuse. If he refuse he will die and when dead he will serve the Dark one. But he would be given a more honourbale place if he was alive.

 

Of course there is the possibility that they lied. But it was something frequently repeated during the first books.

[Asajin]

Ok' date=' Kaptain Krunch and Lugies, I mean Kaptain Kaos and Luckers, I will straighten your thinking out a little, but I would like to see some reply's from some adults here, it is hard to debate with 7th graders and 12 year olds, at least that seems to be the mentality of those responding with one exception so far.

I never said the Dark One killed Aram's family inorder to convert him to the Darkside ; no , again a pitiful example of childish misinterpitation of facts and statements made by others; you guys should grow up; insults do not win arguements and your insults merely demonstrate that you are both pinheads with very little mental capability and please do not misinterpit when I said little I was not refering to your manhood even if it is true.

I said I believe that ARAM was a Dark Friend before or soon after he 1st met Egwen al'Vere and long before his family were murdered and eaten by Trollics.

I said the Dark One or his Leutenants Demanded a Sacrifice from ARAM , a payment, to prove himself a devoted follower of the Dark One and worthy of his favor.

As to Jaicim he did agree and offer his sisters as sacrifice to the Dark One.

and

Luckers, the 1st response you made was untainted by mindless preadolecent venom and in respect to that I will respond seperately[/quote']

 

I'M 12. That hurt... Anyway where do we see Kari's soul. I do not recall an incident like that. And also I doubt Aram was a darkfriend. His undying loyalty to Perrin and Faile until KoD is a testimony to that

[Luckers]

We see Kari's soul at the end of the Eye of the World. Ishmael brings her out to show off.

 

Luckers wrote :The Dead do not belong to the Dark One.

 

Well Ishy told Rand many times over and over again, I believe even Lanfear did when she met him in Tear in the 4th book. That it is useless to refuse. If he refuse he will die and when dead he will serve the Dark one. But he would be given a more honourbale place if he was alive.

 

Of course there is the possibility that they lied. But it was something frequently repeated during the first books.

 

Frequently repeated by Ishamael, who also said even more frequently that he himself was the Dark One. In spite of this we have seen countless times in the series that the Dead do not belong to the Dark One--the heroes, the fact that if souls come under the dark Ones power the second they die, then everyone would be under the Dark One's power. He was lying. Even Kari's own words in that scene support the need that Rand choose. Ishamael was merely trying to frighten Rand into changing sides with the thought that fighting was hopeless.

[Taishar Manetheren]

I havent read all the posts here but i got something to say...

If Kari was a darkfriend (which i dont really believe), then what was her mission?

to die so Rand will grow up without a mother and have a bad childhood?

And if she was supposed to kill him but failed how come the dark one only found Rand was the Dragon when Fain found him and his friends...

unless you meant that she is a darkfiend only in her death and that souns completely usless.. why would the dark one employ her? she is dead!

[moroten]

We see Kari's soul at the end of the Eye of the World. Ishmael brings her out to show off.

 

Luckers wrote :The Dead do not belong to the Dark One.

 

Well Ishy told Rand many times over and over again' date=' I believe even Lanfear did when she met him in Tear in the 4th book. That it is useless to refuse. If he refuse he will die and when dead he will serve the Dark one. But he would be given a more honourbale place if he was alive.

 

Of course there is the possibility that they lied. But it was something frequently repeated during the first books.[/quote']

 

Frequently repeated by Ishamael, who also said even more frequently that he himself was the Dark One. In spite of this we have seen countless times in the series that the Dead do not belong to the Dark One--the heroes, the fact that if souls come under the dark Ones power the second they die, then everyone would be under the Dark One's power. He was lying. Even Kari's own words in that scene support the need that Rand choose. Ishamael was merely trying to frighten Rand into changing sides with the thought that fighting was hopeless.

 

Alright, I give up. But there will come a day when Iw ill bet you in an argument

[Luckers]

I genuinely look forward to it. When i lose it means ive learnt something new, and there is NOTHING more exciting then that except, maybe, sex.

[Guest cwestervelt]

And if she was supposed to kill him but failed how come the dark one only found Rand was the Dragon when Fain found him and his friends...

 

I honestly thought of asking that question. Truly I did. Then I thought, ah what's the point? It's not like anyone was going to care about such a trivial detail as making Fain unnecessary.

[water_seeker]

The hilarity of this whole thing is outstanding. I usually only read the first page of a multiple-page entry, but this one was fascinating in the interplay between the forces of light and dark. On the one side we have the illogical and unreasonable arguing with logic and reason and on the other we have the logical and reasonable arguing from clear in-text sources. I'm just gonna leave it with, I disagree with crazymike, sorry man, you've truly got nothing going for you in this argument. Oh, yeah, I liked how you got after ppl for using insults, but you used them as well. Oh, and when you acted like a child telling ppl they were acting like children. Nice.

[algspkr]

First I do not know if Kari was a darkfriend, or servered the DO after death.

 

She may have always been an agent of the light, her appearance in TEotW merely an illusion created by Ishmael, though the "thank you" from her and Ishmael's subsiquent anger seem to indicate that she was more than an illusion. Assuming that she did serve the Dark One weather it was willing or not is unclear.

 

And for Mike and maybe some others who say that forcing the soul of someone to serve him in death even when they did nothing of the sort in life I would like to point out that so far we have only seen two limits to the Dark One's power. First he is limited by the size of the hole in his prison, and the strength of the patch over it. Second he cannot step out of time. Other than that we have not seen any limits to his power.

[Luckers]

If he had the strength to forcibly convert souls then he would have done so to everyone.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK, here is the conversation. Starting on p.682 of my hardback copy of The Eye of the World (Meetings at the Eye, chapter 50)

(Rand is speaking to start.)

 

"I deny you. You have no power over me, and I will not kneel to you, alive or dead."

 

"Look," Ba'alzamon said. "Look." Unwilling, Rand yet turned his head.

 

Egwene stood there, and Nynaeve, pale and frightened, with flowers in their hair. And another woman, a little older than the Wisdom, dark-eyed and beautiful, clothed in a Two Rivers dress, bright blossoms embroidered round the neck.

 

"Mother?" he breathed, and she smiled, a hopeless smile. His mother's smile. "No! My mother is dead, and the other two are safe away from here. I deny you!" Egwene and Nynaeve blurred, became wafting mist, dissipated. Kari al'Thor still stood there, her eyes big with fear.

 

"She, at least," Ba'alzamon said, "is mine to do with as I will."

 

Rand shook his head. "I deny you." He had to force the words out. "She is dead, and safe from you in the Light."

 

His mother's lips trembled. Tears trickled down her cheeks; each one burned him like acid. "The Lord of the Grave is stronger than he once was, my son," she said. "His reach is longer. The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls. My son. My only, darling son. I would spare you if I could, but he is my master, now, his whim, the law of my existence. I can but obey him, and grovel for his favor. Only you can free me. Please, my son. Help me. Help me! PLEASE!"

 

The wail ripped out of her as barefaced Fades, pale and eyeless, closed round. Her clothes ripped away in their bloodless hands, hands that wielded pincers and clamps and things that stung and burned and whipped against her naked flesh. Her scream would not end.

 

Rand's scream echoed hers. The void boiled in his mind. His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. it touched the nearest Fade, and blinding canescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene.

 

From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. "Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light."

 

The flash faded, and he was alone in the chamber with Ba'alzamon. Ba'alzamon's eyes burned like the Pit of Doom, but he shied back from the sword as if it were truly the Light itself. "Fool! You will destroy yourself! You cannot wield it so, not yet! Not until I teach you!"

 

"It is ended," Rand said, and he swung the sword at Ba'alzamon's black cord.

 

 

That is enough to quote for my purposes. Let's see what we've learned here, shall we?

 

1) Living people who choose not to follow the Dark One are safe, barring a 13 Dreadlord - 13 Myrdraal circle, and that only applies to channelers.

 

2) If Kari al'Thor is to be believed, even after death, only conscious choice can turn a soul to the Dark. "The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls." she says. If the Dark One can force her, why the honeyed tongue? Unwary souls? So then a wary soul would not be in danger.

 

3) Even souls in such a state can be returned to the Light. Kari al'Thor is in the midst of Light that Rand channeled using the Eye, and she says, "Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light." Rand uses that same "blade of the Light" to sever Ba'alzamon's, and later Asmodean's, connection from the Dark One. So, with it he severed Kari al'Thor's connection to the Dark One, which she is under no obligation to restore, and which the Dark One cannot forcibly restore (or he would have reclaimed Asmodean). Ishamael's get restored every time because we willingly goes back and gets them restored. As a side note, it means the "Sword of Light" is not balefire, as none of those three (Kari, Ishamael, and Asmodean) were burned out of the Pattern by Rand.

[Gentled Ben]

He didn't attack Kari or Asmo with the sword; he attacked the cords that bound them to the DO. Only the cords would have been burned from the pattern; not necessarily those whom they bound.

 

When he severed Asmo's connection, he noted that Asmo quivered as if he were a gong that had been struck. He saw Asmo split into two bodies, then coalesce back into one. Maybe that's what happens if the connection, and the connection only, is balefired, in which case, maybe the sword of light IS made of balefire, or some variation of it.

 

Otherwise, it would be like a sword of pure good or something, and that would be tantamount to saying, "I'm going to hack at you with a philosophical concept, and a rather relative one at that." Balefire seems a sharper weapon, to me.

[KaptainKaos]

The wide spectrum of the Power allows for the Sword of Light to be other things besides balefire although if it is a Sword of Balefire that can branch out and fire at will it is an original construct that hasn't been discovered by anyone else or used by Rand since.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

"The Sword of Light" just reminds me of the blade of spirit that is used to sever people from the source. It severs them from the DO.

 

But I don't really remember that far back, but is Rand able to tell which of the powers he is using in his flows, or is he just "thinking of fire, and it happens"?

[tgcgoddess]

While I don't buy the "her job was to kill Rand, failed, and was killed for it" theory, she still may have been a darkfriend before death.

 

Lots (well, maybe not lots) of people apparently were "dabbling in evil", making pledges to the dark one that they thought were just for fun, kinda like playing with a ouiji board. Then suddenly the patch on the seal starts to loosen, and the dark one can reach out and snare those souls with the taint of darkness on them.

 

Perhaps Kari was one of those, and the dark one was just hanging on to her and it wasn't till later that he realized who he had.

 

But it does kinda sound like he turned her after death. (Psst. Hey you. Yeah, you. C'mmere. See that light up there? You don't wanna go to the light. C'mmon with me, and we'll go to a fun party with trolloc...I mean dancing. Yeah, dancing. And cookies!)

 

I don't agree that the dark one can just take souls after death on his own. Isshy said? Lanfear said? Gee they would have no reason to lie to anyone, would they? Of course they would try to turn Rand in life, cause in death he is safe; but then he leaves the world to the tender mercies of the dark one. Why would the dark one care if Rand is at the top of the forsaken chain of command? If he could just have Rand killed and claim him then, why not do it? He wants Rand on his side, and the only way to do that is to turn him in life.

[Tenshin_Xo]

I don't mean to take us off in another direction but I wanted to address the Aram as a DF idea.

 

I think its much more likely that that Aram was infected by Masema's madness than anything else. Even Perrin and his sense of smell picked up on the transition.

I agree that its highly unlikely Aram would have had opportunity to give his soul to the shadow, although I definately think he would have made an excellent candidate for it. If anything it seems to me his age as much as anything would have been an obstacle, at 17 or so how would he have had enough time to make his way to the shadow. Its not like he lived like the city urchins where he could dissapear for an hour or day at a time and no one would notice. It says something about the Tinkers that of all the people at the DF gathering (including several AS) that there was only one noticed by Bors.

I also think its a possibility that Masema is to some degree infected by the evil of Shadar Logoth, via Fain. Fain would have very likely heard of him if he went south around the mountains of mist when leaving Falme or the Two Rivers. How better left to hurt Rand than to set a madman loose commiting horrors in the name of Dragon Reborn. Personally I think its just the type of thing Fain would do. I'm sure I've read theories purporting as much so I won't go into too much detail about that.

[Gentled Ben]

I don't mean to take us off in another direction

 

Yes, you do-- that's the whole point of your post. That's okay, though; it was one of Crazy Mike's topics. :P

It's good to see another Denverite on DM, BTW. I'm in Aurora.

[moroten]

I don't mean to take us off in another direction

 

Yes' date=' you do-- that's the whole point of your post. That's okay, though; it was one of Crazy Mike's topics. :P

It's good to see another Denverite on DM, BTW. I'm in Aurora.[/quote']

 

You think aurora sedai messed up masema? This guy it driven mad, how would she achieve that? I believe it could be one of the forsaken, fits their chaos thing.

[Luckers]

Who is Aurora Sedai?

[demonspawn]

It is probably the only Aes Sedai who likes sunbeds, as Aurora relates to the colour orange and that is the colour that most women turn after a few sessions!

 

Or it could be the female equivalent fo Lews Therin The Lord of the Morning, as Aurora is also Goddess of the Dawn!

 

Sorry! I've definately had too much to drink.

[Zardi]

There is no Aurora Sedai. Aurora is a city in Colorado :P

[Guest cwestervelt]

Annoura Sedai. Berelain's advisor.

[Zardi]

Sure, Annoura is Berelain's advisor, but what does that have to do with this? Am I missing something? Ben said he's from Aurora, and moroten responded, "You think aurora sedai messed up masema?" -- so either he's joking around or he's completely lost. That's what I was responding to.

[moroten]

Who is Aurora Sedai?

 

Isnt it Berelain private counsellor?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Zardi: I was answering Lucker's question of "Who is Aurora Sedai?".

 

moroten: It is Annoura Sedai, not Aurora Sedai. There is no Aurora Sedai that has ever been mentioned in the books.