Favourite Dark-Side Character

[hotpocket2006]

It was a tough decision for me but I chose Semirhage. My other choices would've been Lanfear or Graendal.

 

Semirhage is totally my people. She's the type of baddie I'd be if I were to be bad, balls to the wall. She was a healer and world renowned for it. She was totally and completely twisted and sadistic. She was one of the first to swear allegiance to the DO. She was totally bad before there was even such thing as the forsaken. She used whole cities just to test her powers of torture so she could perfect them and develop new ways. People heard that she was in charge of them and rather than fight, like they would with many of the forsaken, they committed suicide. She also turned many people to the DO. She also discovered 13x13. I'd say she is as bad as they get.

 

Graendal was totally awesome, but too subtle for me. She twisted peoples minds to do her will and ruining them forever, but she's too subtle of a baddie for my taste and too vain.

 

And though Lanfear is awesome also and plotted to have her and rand go off and defy both the creator and the DO, she let her heart and her jealousy get the best of her. And she's now a puppet. She is bad, but definitely not the baddest.

[Ashandarei]

She's the type of baddie I'd be if I were to be bad, balls to the wall. She was a healer and world renowned for it. She was totally and completely twisted and sadistic. She was one of the first to swear allegiance to the DO. She was totally bad before there was even such thing as the forsaken. She used whole cities just to test her powers of torture so she could perfect them and develop new ways. People heard that she was in charge of them and rather than fight, like they would with many of the forsaken, they committed suicide. She also turned many people to the DO. She also discovered 13x13. I'd say she is as bad as they get.

 

Balls to the wall and insane in the memBrain- love her evil badassery. I hate they way she was characterized in TGS as falling apart because she was supposedly "humiliated" by a spanking.

[hotpocket2006]

She's the type of baddie I'd be if I were to be bad, balls to the wall. She was a healer and world renowned for it. She was totally and completely twisted and sadistic. She was one of the first to swear allegiance to the DO. She was totally bad before there was even such thing as the forsaken. She used whole cities just to test her powers of torture so she could perfect them and develop new ways. People heard that she was in charge of them and rather than fight, like they would with many of the forsaken, they committed suicide. She also turned many people to the DO. She also discovered 13x13. I'd say she is as bad as they get.

 

Balls to the wall and insane in the memBrain- love her evil badassery. I hate they way she was characterized in TGS as falling apart because she was supposedly "humiliated" by a spanking.

 

Me too!!! I would think she would've enjoyed that *laughs* There's no way that would've had the effect it had on her in the book.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

If there's any undercurrent of sexism in WoT, it's against men. If you haven't forgotten, the single most powerful institution in the world at this time is the White Tower, a place inhabited solely by women, who are so powerful that kings and queens kneel before them. Not to forget how many references have been made to men being wool-headed something-or-others . Now if you're talking about the idea that maybe RJ wrote women in such a powerful and authoritative position to send an anti-feminist message, I find that idea intriguing and possibly worth further exploration, but I'm by no means convinced that that's the answer either.

 

I would love to tackle this thoroughly, but I don't think I could do it justice without violating the board's ban on political discussion. I'll just say that my perception of RJ's sexism has been the hardest pill for me to swallow when it comes to the series. One example relating to Mierin is that it was she, a female, who introduced supreme evil into the world, whereas it was a male, the Dragon—who is always[ a male, according to RJ—to clean up her mess as best as could be done.

 

Another example is that the gods in WoT are assumed to be male—and the Dark One almost certainly is, given his extremely brutal treatment of failed female Forsaken versus failed male ones.

 

A third is that females are weaker channelers than males, even after accounting for their greater agility. Mierin was as powerful as a female channeler could be, yet RJ stated outright that she would not be able to equal the Dragon in an unrestricted, all-else-being-equal confrontation. Many fans have even speculated, as have characters inside the story, that she would not even be able to equal or defeat Ishamael, who is not as strong as Rand. Thus we have, in Mierin, a case of “the best female can't equal the best male,” which is a textbook definition of misogynistic sexism. And, with respect to someone's argument that females can create circles and males can't, well, that actually serves to reinforce the underlying sexist premise, by establishing that females can only make up their deficiency in numbers.

 

Additionally, as mentioned before, saidar and saidin are equal. Robert Jordan made that specifically clear, I know because I just read the passage explaining it in TfoH.

 

Saidar and Saidin, yes. Females and males, no. The kind of “equality” RJ believed in was “separate but equal.” He believed females and males complemented each other, and were not truly equal in the sense of being able to legitimately avoid sex-specific classifications.

 

---

Emu - I have to say that I admire your passion on the character and how well you have articulated your points of view. I find many of them to be thought provoking.

 

Thank you! These discussion boards work best when people discuss stuff. =)

 

However, I still greatly disagree with a lot of your POV. Lanfear to me is very, very evil. Does she enjoy torturing like Semirhage? No, but she is still willing to kill without alsolutely any remorse. That alone makes her evil in my eyes without any further explanation needed.

 

Like I said earlier, I'm less interested in whether she is good or evil. However, when it comes to establishing her “evil” bona fides, it's not as easy as it seems. How many people do we know for sure that she killed, as opposed to her reputation based on hearsay, ancient legends, or the ramblings of the insane LTT? When she killed Kadere, she was insane.

 

We know that she took pleasure in Asmodean's bad dreams about her. I'd say that makes her something of a sociopath. We know that she didn't engage respectfully with Rand, despite greatly desiring to be his mate. I'd say that makes her more of a sociopath.

 

What I'm getting at is that, to the extent Mierin is “evil” by popular definitions of the word, it's primarily because she is antisocial, not because she is a destroyer or a psychopath. And, by my conception of evil, antisocial psychology has more to do with mental illness and social injustice than it does with character integrity.

 

Bearing in mind that what was to have been Mierin's greatest achievement instead produced the Bore, and bearing in mind that she was rejected by the person she loved, I think it's reasonable to deduce that she went mad sometime back in the Age of Legends. Lews Therin's marriage to Ilyena was the last straw. I think she is only partially responsible for the things she has done since then. So, if she is evil, it comes with a lot of mitigating asterisks.

 

You believe that she got together with LTT/Rand because she saw that they would be great and therefore were someone she could be with because she saw herself in them and felt they had common ground (at least that's how I'm reading your POV, sorry if that isn't correct). I still contend that it is that power itself that drew her. She would not have been happy living with Rand on a farm. Because its the power more than the man that she loves.

 

Let's look at this another way. To the best of our knowledge, Mierin was never interested in getting together with somebody like Barid Bel Medar, who was ever just a hair less of a human being than Lews Therin Telamon. When LTT rejected her, if her love for his power was greater than her love for him, she would have had a strong incentive to look for somebody else. Access to Barid's power would have greatly expanded her own power. But she didn't pursue that course of action. She obsessively, fanatically pursued LTT even when he made it clear he was through with her. It wasn't in the interests of her own power to take that course of action, yet she took it anyway.

 

There are only two possible reasons why: One is that she was a purist to the extent that it was unthinkable for her to contemplate “settling” for “almosts” like Barid. The other possibility is that she did not make a distinction between “LTT” and “LTT's power,” considering the power inseparable from the person.

 

Either possibility is plausible, but the latter is a lot more probable, given what we know about Mierin. It's certainly the case that LTT's power (and later Rand's) is part of why she loved him, but it's unlikely, given her fanatical fixation on him, that she cared more about one component of him—a component that was readily available in other people—than she did about the man as a whole.

 

And I agree that ambition itself is not a bad thing. But look what she wants to do with that power. Does she want to be the best she can be to better mankind? To gain the best things in life she can? No, she wants to rule the world. She wants to be a god. Does she even think that her ruling the world would be the best thing for the world (that would at least be a rationalization that I could understand)? No, she just wants that ultimate power for herself. That is ambition with evil intentions.

 

We don't actually know the things you are assuming here. We don't know what she would do as ruler of the world. We have no insight at all into her political views. That's a common shortcoming among fantasy writers: They seldom explain the nits and grits of what a villain would do after conquering the world. Usually, all we get are unimaginative generalities such as “I will destroy happiness!” But even that kind of ideological baggage is not saddled on Mierin; RJ left her completely a blank slate. We honestly can only speculate what her political agenda would be. I think the answers to those questions would tell us a lot more about whether she is good or evil than can her documented behavior so far in the series.

 

There is a lot about Lanfear to be impressed about. She is very impressive. She also has many admirable characteristics. But I maintain that she is not a noble or admirable human being.

 

Fair enough. We'll agree and disagree. =)

 

---

She chose that name. Quite a difference between earning the third name in the AoL and giving yourself a nickname.

 

You're right that she chose the name herself, but I'm right that she came to be known by it. It brought her infamy rather than fame, but it was just as prestigious.

 

The funny thing is she even got that wrong. We have seen Moghedien to be the strongest forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

There are a number of errors in that statement.

 

At any rate, the rest of your post is excerpts of well-known interviews and Q&As, raising points that I have already addressed in previous posts. I refer you to those posts.

 

---

Never seen someone argue for a character in WoT with such drive or in such depth.

 

Thank you. I have to say, it is the idea of Mierin Eronaile more so than the actual depiction of her which I like so much. There's a lot about RJ's execution of the character that rubs me the wrong way. It's well and good that she is “the most beautiful woman alive,” but that's rather a silly premise and it also distracts from her seriousness as a player in the turning of the Wheel. I also take issue with the degree of her jealousy. I don't like resorting to explanations of mental illness to account for her bizarre fanaticism, but, given the way he wrote her, there is no better alternative. In fact, the only alternative is that she's a one-dimensional cookie cutter Forsaken just like most of the rest of them.

 

I'm very interested in ambitious, strong-willed, self-determining characters. For one thing, I relate to them. For another, I think they make great characters in “epic” stories, because they provide a motive for the world-reaching plotlines that define epics. For yet another, they give me hope that our species is not quite as pathetic and small as it often strives to be. (Spoken as Mierin herself would, perhaps!) In a story like WoT, which is heavily burdened with themes of eternal recurrence, adversity, and meaninglessness, here is a character who strives to create the world she wants to live in. I admire that, and that's why I like to write about her here.

 

I also bristle at the fact that RJ depicted her so negatively. It's no petty insult to be compared to Eve. It's no small hardship to be snared in a mindtrap. It's no mere outrage that her humanistic ambitions are probably impossible by the laws of the WoT universe. This, too, inspires me to write about her. RJ looked at her and some some mixture of hubris, jealousy, greed, and malice. That's very disappointing! I would have liked to write him a letter telling him all the reasons he was wrong. =)

 

I think what Emu is saying is that there's nothing wrong with wanting to rule the world or be a god even if you don't have overtly benevolent plans like helping humanity. It's like wanting to be the President or Prime Minister in today's world. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be that even if you don't qualify the statement with "because I want to further the good of mankind."

 

Exactly. If Mierin wants to rule the world, she doesn't need to legitimize her ambition by saying that her purpose is to serve others. There are any number of valid and invalid reasons she might invoke instead. Whether her rule turns out to be good or bad depends mostly on what her rule looks like, rather than on the nature of her ambition. Even a ruthless person like her could prove to be a beloved and successful leader—much as a gentle and agreeable human being could turn out to be an utterly rotten leader.

 

She never states that as ruler she wants to enslave people or torture them etc, although admittedly being a Forsaken she does have precedent for such actions. So basically what Emu's saying, and what I agree with, is that wanting to rule a nation, or the world in this case, isn't evil, that's just ambition, pure and simple.

 

Well-put. Better than I said it, and more concise.

 

Finally, I think we all know RJ's thoughts on the character from the quotes Suttree provided, but that doesn't necessarily set things in stone. That's why it's a story, so we can each take our own meanings from it and relate to it in our own ways. While RJ may state characters as having black and white personalities, the beauty of the story is that it leaves gray areas which may look darker to some readers and lighter to others.

 

That's the crux of it! Anyone is welcome to disagree with my reading of Mierin, but I'm not going to humor any objection which says “We're only allowed to think what Jordan wanted us to think.” First of all, who really knows what he thought? He was always so deliberately vague, to the point that it became a flaw in his competence in a writer. Second of all, a story has life beyond its teller. The pages of the book are the property of Tor and the Jordan estate, but the ideas within are free and won't be leashed.

[Lord D]

She's the type of baddie I'd be if I were to be bad, balls to the wall. She was a healer and world renowned for it. She was totally and completely twisted and sadistic. She was one of the first to swear allegiance to the DO. She was totally bad before there was even such thing as the forsaken. She used whole cities just to test her powers of torture so she could perfect them and develop new ways. People heard that she was in charge of them and rather than fight, like they would with many of the forsaken, they committed suicide. She also turned many people to the DO. She also discovered 13x13. I'd say she is as bad as they get.

 

Balls to the wall and insane in the memBrain- love her evil badassery. I hate they way she was characterized in TGS as falling apart because she was supposedly "humiliated" by a spanking.

 

Me too!!! I would think she would've enjoyed that *laughs* There's no way that would've had the effect it had on her in the book.

 

If I was a baddie, I'd be like Rahvin, using mind-control for sex, money and power. As to Semi, the spanking probably shouldn't have worked, but rape certainly could have worked. However, in this kind of fantasy the good guys don't rape or torture, otherwise we wouldn't think they were so good. I have read books which have somewhat psychotic good guys, like Waylander the Slayer in David Gemmell, or Finlay Campbell in the Deathstalker chronicles.

[hotpocket2006]

She's the type of baddie I'd be if I were to be bad, balls to the wall. She was a healer and world renowned for it. She was totally and completely twisted and sadistic. She was one of the first to swear allegiance to the DO. She was totally bad before there was even such thing as the forsaken. She used whole cities just to test her powers of torture so she could perfect them and develop new ways. People heard that she was in charge of them and rather than fight, like they would with many of the forsaken, they committed suicide. She also turned many people to the DO. She also discovered 13x13. I'd say she is as bad as they get.

 

Balls to the wall and insane in the memBrain- love her evil badassery. I hate they way she was characterized in TGS as falling apart because she was supposedly "humiliated" by a spanking.

 

Me too!!! I would think she would've enjoyed that *laughs* There's no way that would've had the effect it had on her in the book.

 

If I was a baddie, I'd be like Rahvin, using mind-control for sex, money and power. As to Semi, the spanking probably shouldn't have worked, but rape certainly could have worked. However, in this kind of fantasy the good guys don't rape or torture, otherwise we wouldn't think they were so good. I have read books which have somewhat psychotic good guys, like Waylander the Slayer in David Gemmell, or Finlay Campbell in the Deathstalker chronicles.

 

*nods* I agree she probably wouldn't have enjoyed the spanking per se because she's a sadist and not a masochist, but I still don't think what Cadsuane did should've had the effect it did. I knew it was the humiliation that did it, but it was just a little spanking. Then again I don't really like Cadsuane overmuch. I'd like to think I would be a mixture of Semirhage and Grandael. Semirhage because she wasn't afraid and went all out with her evilness and Grandael because she had major sex appeal and she knew how to indulge in that.

 

Hmmm... maybe I should read those series. While I do enjoy clean cut good people, I think it would be good to read some books where the good guys aren't always clean, like in A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Lord D]

Hmmm... maybe I should read those series. While I do enjoy clean cut good people, I think it would be good to read some books where the good guys aren't always clean, like in A Song of Ice and Fire.

I think I've read all the ASOIAF books that have been published so far, but George RR Martin has been AWOL for the last 3 years. I think the most psychotic of the good guys is probably the dwarf Tyrion.

[Puck]

Padain Fain, don't you just get a shiver down his spine when you read his POVS.

 

He has tortured Fades which are feared by many, and is so crazy you can't even fathom his way of thinking.

[TheAngryDruid]

Tempted to go for Lanfear, Moridin, or Fain. But instead went Other and decided to vote for just a regular old Darkfriend: Alviarin. She is a devious one.

 

Wanted more DF's on the list. Carridan? Liandrin and her group? Other DF Aes Sedai like Galina, Katerine, etc. Other DF Asha'man (Kisman). Or just regular old DF's like Lady Shiaine.

[Sleeper]

Hmmm... maybe I should read those series. While I do enjoy clean cut good people, I think it would be good to read some books where the good guys aren't always clean, like in A Song of Ice and Fire.

I think I've read all the ASOIAF books that have been published so far, but George RR Martin has been AWOL for the last 3 years. I think the most psychotic of the good guys is probably the dwarf Tyrion.

We need more antiheroes in literature and film. I always enjoy books that have a flawed protagonist, in other words, a human protagonist.

 

That's one reason I've always liked Rand so much, he's one of the baddest good guys in TWOT, until VoG at least.

[OptimusPrime]

Moridin and Taim. I know I know, no need to repeat myself, but just for the non believers...

 

Ishamael has a very impressive success rate. The only times he has failed have been when he directly threatened the existence of a Ta'veren, as in Lewis and Rand, and both had Time on their side so that can barely be counted as a true failure. He has succeeded several times in dealing with Ta'veren, his reason for turning dark made him the most interesting Forsaken by far, and the Dragon vs Nae'blis arc has always been my favorite part of the books because Rand and Moridin are just so awesome. The only thing I would change or add at this point would be for us to get to see Rand through Moridins eyes, especially after VoG. Moridins been so confident with regards to Rand so far, but would he fear the all-seeing Rand Sedai? Taim... the sheer magnitude of his actions... In some ways he is to the Shadow what Rand is to the Light. Recruiting male channelers is a massive achievement and has by far the most direct impact on TG than any of the other Forsakens plans.

 

Lanfear and Graendal are my favorite female villains. Graendal for the craftiness, Lanfear for the archtype evil ex-girlfriend stuff added to her discovery of the True Power, I only wish Moridin had been using Cyndane and Moghedien more productively prior to ToM. I mean come on, a True Power circle-if its even possible-would be incredible.

 

Mazridin+Cyndane+Moghedien True Power circle vs Narishma+Alivia+Nynaeve using Callandor as Rand sacrifices himself...

 

Also Fain. Hes always been up there right from TGH. The guy thinks hes invincible! Gotta love that kind of bad guy. And Machin Sin at his feet in the Blight... awesome.

 

And dont forget Dark Rand. "Do you believe that I could kill you?" Muhuhahahahahaaaaa

 

Also I like the Dark One with his non-human way of thinking, his method of making his minions predictable, and the fact that Ishamael plays a lesser version of the same game. Awesome.

 

One last thing. Demandred is an idiotic spoilt spineless wimpy little girl. That is all.

[nolirion]

First I want to say that I am quite happy to have that discussion Lanfear is overall one of my favorite character , thought my english could be better.

Additionally, as mentioned before, saidar and saidin are equal. Robert Jordan made that specifically clear, I know because I just read the passage explaining it in TfoH.

 

Saidar and Saidin, yes. Females and males, no. The kind of “equality” RJ believed in was “separate but equal.” He believed females and males complemented each other, and were not truly equal in the sense of being able to legitimately avoid sex-specific classifications.

As I said before Women can circle by themselves man can't , man are only stronger to compensate that fact . It is thruth that if a man and a woman meet , the man would be stronger , but human live in society and unity mean strength in society .

 

 

And I agree that ambition itself is not a bad thing. But look what she wants to do with that power. Does she want to be the best she can be to better mankind? To gain the best things in life she can? No, she wants to rule the world. She wants to be a god. Does she even think that her ruling the world would be the best thing for the world (that would at least be a rationalization that I could understand)? No, she just wants that ultimate power for herself. That is ambition with evil intentions.

 

We don't actually know the things you are assuming here. We don't know what she would do as ruler of the world. We have no insight at all into her political views. That's a common shortcoming among fantasy writers: They seldom explain the nits and grits of what a villain would do after conquering the world. Usually, all we get are unimaginative generalities such as “I will destroy happiness!” But even that kind of ideological baggage is not saddled on Mierin; RJ left her completely a blank slate. We honestly can only speculate what her political agenda would be. I think the answers to those questions would tell us a lot more about whether she is good or evil than can her documented behavior so far in the series.

I tend to be skeptical about the ability of a villain to rule or to guide what he rule to happiness or greatness when it involve killink two third of the population or for that matter using shadowspawn to establish is power . But well that my opinion.

 

 

I think what Emu is saying is that there's nothing wrong with wanting to rule the world or be a god even if you don't have overtly benevolent plans like helping humanity. It's like wanting to be the President or Prime Minister in today's world. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be that even if you don't qualify the statement with "because I want to further the good of mankind."

Exactly. If Mierin wants to rule the world, she doesn't need to legitimize her ambition by saying that her purpose is to serve others. There are any number of valid and invalid reasons she might invoke instead. Whether her rule turns out to be good or bad depends mostly on what her rule looks like, rather than on the nature of her ambition.

 

 

Well that a point I am interested , well ,to me , Lanfear doe's not want to rule the world she want to establish her domination over it witch it's a whole other story .

Ruling is about duty , being President or Prime Minister , and for that mater being a king or a Queen or any nobility is about nothing less then executing the will of the people ,ensuring their law are respected and order preserved . In fact its about preserving the community , but I do agree that ambition can serve that goal , because you can as a leader try to preserve your people troughs expansion , economy , education .

To quote you Hawking was ruthless in is rule , only to those who broke the law but he was , and was loved for the peace he brought . You don't need to legitimize your ambition because in the end being a leader is nothing more but to serve other .

Ambition just a power are tool one of will the other of deed, because of that ambition for ambition mean nothing , you wan to be president but then what will you do ?

 

She never states that as ruler she wants to enslave people or torture them etc, although admittedly being a Forsaken she does have precedent for such actions. So basically what Emu's saying, and what I agree with, is that wanting to rule a nation, or the world in this case, isn't evil, that's just ambition, pure and simple.

When I say Lanfear want domination , I must agree I have no more proof of that then my interpretation , I just think when you tend to slaughter opposition to achieve the chief position rather then seeking the consensus you will not be a good leader . As far as I am concern if Lanfear want to build a society where women and man are equal and are looking for nothing more then freedom ,the fact that she want to achieve that through war , not a simple war but war with shadowspawn , is not acceptable . Ambition is not an excuse

That's the crux of it! Anyone is welcome to disagree with my reading of Mierin, but I'm not going to humor any objection which says “We're only allowed to think what Jordan wanted us to think.” First of all, who really knows what he thought? He was always so deliberately vague, to the point that it became a flaw in his competence in a writer. Second of all, a story has life beyond its teller. The pages of the book are the property of Tor and the Jordan estate, but the ideas within are free and won't be leashed.

Well I agree with you , when I said Rj had a good idea about what was Mierin I did not meant it to sound like a preacher of the eternal and glorious only truth . And in the end I like your idea about ambition , I find a bit naive but I like it , well if life is not about showing your uniqueness then what it is about ?

[ryanphlp2002]

Just cast my vote - Rahvin - he gave Rand the fight of his life whereas lots of the other deaths were pretty lame. Would have been torn had Asmodean been there, I loved his dark wit!

[Randommer]

Voted Graendal cos she's just epically devious; she managed to outsmart Rand even before she knew what he was up to. Also, I'm still really afraid she's going to kill Perrin at some point, so she's my one-to-watch for AMoL.

 

My second favourite would be Lanfear, don't even think I have to explain why. She's just great. I mean Rand/LTT feeling 'desire' for her still, after everything? Really didn't see that coming.

 

Third would be Semirhage, simply because of how terrifyingly psycho she was, and that bit in TGS where she almost made Rand kill Min was the most TERRIFYING SCENE EVER imo.

 

Demandred has the potential to be brilliant, but he just hasn't had enough screen-time.

[randsc]

Lanfear was on my list of favorites, back on the first page. But, "noble and admirable?"

 

People who tell Lanfear bad news get flayed alive.

[Sharaman]

Lanfear and Graendal are definitely up there as hot and nasty and I'd confess to a sneaking admiration for Shaidar, as well.

Semirhage is a bit too much of the cult dominatrice for my taste.

[AmusableAlias]

Slayer

 

I find Perrin the most interesting of the Ta'veren from Two Rivers.

The wolf dream chases between him and slayer were quite interesting.

[Luckers]

I voted Graendal, but Semirhage was a close contender--and both for the same reasons, the cool control with which they reacted to the appearence of Shaidar Haren. Where that control goes later, I don't know, but I still love them both for it.

[Ace Sedai]

The Dark one.

I'm surprised he didn't get more votes.

-People are scared of speaking his name.

-Provides his devoted followers {male forsaken} protection from his taint on the source.

-Actually tainted the source.

-Has hidden followers everywhere.

-Has his own Ajah.

-Ecstatic orgasms are provided to a choice few.

It is my personal hope he jumps through the bore like the kool-aid man before it is resealed.

[csarmi]

I like Liandrin and Alviarin.

[Smittyphi]

Daved Hanlon - He gets things done for team dark and is pretty ruthless.

[Puny]

I voted for Ishy/Moridin. Only cause he seems to have an understanding and true motive behind his actions. He seems to be the only one that has reasoned and truly knows why he is doing what he is doing. His link to Rand is really interesting and I like the philosopher in him. And that he has some pets doesn´t make him any less awesome.

 

In second place.. I kinda liked Rahvin with him going around tossing Compulsion on a queen, making her all willy-nilly but Shaidar Haran is cool too, our special Fade!

[Luckers]

Has Daved Hanlon succeeded at anything yet?

 

He led the White Lions in attacking Cairhein, and they had their asses handed to them by Mat. He then gathered the White Lions and got in behind the Cairhienin Rebels, and had their asses handed to them by a Bubble of Evil. He returns to Caemlyn, and joins the plot against Elayne, gaining himself a position as her Captain of the Guard, only he's such a douche he immediately earns suspicion and is not only outed, but subsequently outs the Black Ajah in Caemlyn. He gets captured, and is release by Lounalt, and then gets driven out yet again....

 

Hmmm....

[Smittyphi]

He sets fires to the Caemlyn graineries, kills Eldrith and Temaile, preventing them from revealing anything else. He killed most of the shadows that Elayne set on him. He's pretty ruthless and he's still alive and you can't say that about lots of other DF, including many forsaken

[Luckers]

He sets fires to the Caemlyn graineries

 

Say what now? This continues after his capture.

 

kills Eldrith and Temaile

 

Who are his allies.

 

preventing them from revealing anything else.

 

The BA Oath does that now they know Elayne is faking being Forsaken.

 

He killed most of the shadows that Elayne set on him. He's pretty ruthless and he's still alive and you can't say that about lots of other DF, including many forsaken

 

This is true. For now. Still--he was defeated by Hark. HARK!