is Taim Moridin?

[Arc]

Haven't gone through the entire thread so just ignore this if it has already been discussed.

 

Another possible argument why Morridin can't be Taim IMO is that Min has seen Taim at Dumais Wells and hasn't seen anything other than blood in his past - blood in his future. Wouldn't one expect something more if it really were Morridin?

Just a thought -

[XXX]

Maybe Taim is not a bad guy at all...either he was under compulsion or he has in own ways of fighting the good fight. I would love to see more of him and Logain in the last book. It is time some bad ass male channelers get more notice.

[Kahsm]

Haven't gone through the entire thread so just ignore this if it has already been discussed.

 

Another possible argument why Morridin can't be Taim IMO is that Min has seen Taim at Dumais Wells and hasn't seen anything other than blood in his past - blood in his future. Wouldn't one expect something more if it really were Morridin?

Just a thought -

 

Nothing else she can read maybe. She says that all Asha'man and Aes Sedai have images. She also mentions many she doesn't understand. Specifically for Cadsuane and Dashiva (who was obviously a forsaken and she didn't catch that), it was a mess of images.

 

Plus Sheriam was a DF and Min only got "her face seemed battered and bruised." out of the viewings of her.

[Mik]

Haven't gone through the entire thread so just ignore this if it has already been discussed.

 

Another possible argument why Morridin can't be Taim IMO is that Min has seen Taim at Dumais Wells and hasn't seen anything other than blood in his past - blood in his future. Wouldn't one expect something more if it really were Moridin?

Just a thought -

 

Nothing else she can read maybe. She says that all Asha'man and Aes Sedai have images. She also mentions many she doesn't understand. Specifically for Cadsuane and Dashiva (who was obviously a forsaken and she didn't catch that), it was a mess of images.

 

Plus Sheriam was a DF and Min only got "her face seemed battered and bruised." out of the viewings of her.

It's funny how Arc thinks Min's Viewing of Taim is proof why Taim can't be Moridin, where I think it;s proof of the exact opposite!

Min literally states that through her Viewing she 'saw blood in both past and future' of "Taim".

 

Let me quote a part of myself from a few years ago in the structured Taim thread:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/8369-mazrim-taim-the-loose-cannon/page__view__findpost__p__1115349

 

I think the real Mazrim Taim was killed (somewhere right after he was 'freed')

His body was used for transmigrating Ishamael.

 

.../ /...

 

From Min:

------------------------------------------------------

“Did you see anything, Min?” Rand said.

…/ /…

Settling her feet beneath her, [Min] looked up at Rand. Now that she was laughing again, she seemed radiant. That held even after she became serious. Serious, and not very pleased. “As for your question, nothing of any use. Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that.

 

He’s a dangerous man.

 

They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai.” A sidelong look through lowered eyelashes at Dashiva and the other Asha’man said who she meant. Most people had few images around them, but Min said Aes Sedai and Warders always did. “The problem is, what I can see is all blurry. I think it’s because they’re holding the Power. That often seems true with Aes Sedai, and it’s worse when they’re actually channeling. Kiruna and that lot have all sorts of things around them, but they stay so close together that it all . . . well . . . jumbles together most of the time. It’s even muddier with the prisoners.”

 

“Never mind the prisoners,” Rand told her. “That’s what they’ll stay.”

 

“But Rand, I keep feeling there is something important, if I could only pick it out. You need to know.”

 

“ ‘If you don’t know everything, you must go on with what you do know,’ ” Rand quoted wryly. “It seems I never do know everything. Hardly enough, most of the time. But there’s no choice but to go on, is there.” That was not at all a question. (ACoS, Chapter 2 - The Butcher’s Yard)

-----------------------------------

 

RJ on Min's ability:

Q8: The auras that Min sees, would they ever show the person’s past or other elements that are simply unique to that person?

RJ: No, it is the future.

 

“Min sees images surrounding people who are important in the Pattern. She often cannot interpret what they mean, but they foretell future events and they always come true. Ta'veren always have images. Aes Sedai and their Warders nearly always have images as do the Asha'man. She never sees images around Ogier. Images of channelers are blurry when they hold the One Power, especially when they are actually channeling. If they are stilled, Aes Sedai no longer have constant auras.”

-----------------------------------

My take:

The important titbit that Min can't pick out is that Taim is the only person she ever saw something about that concerned his past! It should be impossible and thus would is very, very important! Because the only being we know that has serious time-related problems is Shai'tan! And who is 'but half a step below the Dark One'? Exactly, the Nae'Blis.

And who is Nae'Blis? Exactly; Moridin.

 

(what it means to actually be Nae'Blis is a different discussion, but is mighty important though)

 

Cheerio,

Mik

 

Taim is dead! Long live Tai... err..Moridin!

[Arc]

thx, hadn't thought about it that profoundly yet. I never before payed any attention to the 'past' aspect of the viewing.

 

nice,

 

.. still not thinking Taim is Morridin though :)

[Mik]

thx, hadn't thought about it that profoundly yet. I never before payed any attention to the 'past' aspect of the viewing.

 

nice,

You're welcome!

 

 

.. still not thinking Taim is Morridin though :)

That's ok. The seed of doutb is planted.

All I have to do is sit back and let the seed grow. ;P

 

Back when I posted that even Drekka Mort was still convinced Taim was just Taim. (hiya Optimus!)

Now he's one of the champions that advocate thet Moridin is Taim.

 

The Viewing on "Taim" is the only Viewing where Min saw what RJ himself describes as something impossible; the Past.

We know there's only one being that is literally bound by Time; Shai'tan.

How fitting that the creature just half a step below the Great Lord himself would seriously mess up a Pattern-reading ability like Viewing.

[OptimusPrime]

Back when I posted that even Drekka Mort was still convinced Taim was just Taim. (hiya Optimus!)

Now he's one of the champions that advocate thet Moridin is Taim.

 

Hell yeah! Optimus ftw hahaha

 

I realized Taim was Moridin when Brandon announced there was a BUT. Even though it wasnt this (apparantly). At first I was a bit dissapointed because Moridin and Taim were my favorite bad guys. These days when I read Taims so-called introduction I see about ten million subtle-yet-in-your-face references.

[GYLD]

The Viewing on "Taim" is the only Viewing where Min saw what RJ himself describes as something impossible; the Past.

 

That's not necessarily true. In the same book she views Daved Hanlon and she knows that he will kill and rape again. There had to be something in the viewing that told her he had done these things before even if it is a reference to the future. I don't see why it couldn't be the same for the Taim viewing.

[Kahsm]

The Viewing on "Taim" is the only Viewing where Min saw what RJ himself describes as something impossible; the Past.

 

That's not necessarily true. In the same book she views Daved Hanlon and she knows that he will kill and rape again. There had to be something in the viewing that told her he had done these things before even if it is a reference to the future. I don't see why it couldn't be the same for the Taim viewing.

 

 

^^ owned.

 

I was going to suggest that our interpretation of what Min said (or possibly her interpretation of what she sees) is wrong. Since RJ says it's always the future... He didn't say "usually" or "most of the time". You can't see something that's impossible, if you did... it wouldn't be impossible!

 

Though I don't really have a better thought at the moment. Taim is far too busy to be Moridin though.

[mb]

The blood in past I take to be a conclusion made, not a Viewing.

Robert Jordon told elsewhere that Viewings are always about the future and never about the past. Do not remember where exactly.

[WhiskyJack]

Something to pass the time till the book comes...

[OptimusPrime]

Taim is far too busy to be Moridin though.

 

Well that would depend how much time we think Taim is putting into the non-Darkfriend Ashaman, and how much of Moridins time we think the Darkfriend Ashaman take up. To be honest I really dont understand what people think Moridin is doing in his spare time if not something like this.

 

Exactly how much of the Nae'blis' time would really be devoted to Shadowspawn armies? I say very little. Demandred can do that. The Chosen mark means Shadowspawn are Compelled to obey any Chosen, and armies are Demandreds thing. And even then I think that wouldnt take up all of a Chosens spare time because Fades can do most of it, we've seen them do their thing already. They dont need a Chosen to manage them 24/7.

 

And if the Shadowspawn DID need someone important with them I think Shaidar Haran would be an even better candidate for that. Definitely not Moridin.

 

It seems like a viable possibility that wherever Taims special classes take place are a designated area not just for the usual Darkfriend meeting fodder, but more importantly as a Travelling area where the residues arent likely to be read by anyone inconvenient-like Logain. If thats a possibility, where else are those gateways going to be headed, if not to Moridins fortress in the Blight? If thats the case, then the distance between the buildings at the Black Tower and the Blight fortress means nothing. Because of Travelling the two would be like one building. And since we have seen True Power gateways I'd say this is all possible even with the Dreamspike in place.

[Kahsm]

Taim is far too busy to be Moridin though.

 

Well that would depend how much time we think Taim is putting into the non-Darkfriend Ashaman, and how much of Moridins time we think the Darkfriend Ashaman take up. To be honest I really dont understand what people think Moridin is doing in his spare time if not something like this.

 

Exactly how much of the Nae'blis' time would really be devoted to Shadowspawn armies? I say very little. Demandred can do that. The Chosen mark means Shadowspawn are Compelled to obey any Chosen, and armies are Demandreds thing. And even then I think that wouldnt take up all of a Chosens spare time because Fades can do most of it, we've seen them do their thing already. They dont need a Chosen to manage them 24/7.

 

And if the Shadowspawn DID need someone important with them I think Shaidar Haran would be an even better candidate for that. Definitely not Moridin.

 

It seems like a viable possibility that wherever Taims special classes take place are a designated area not just for the usual Darkfriend meeting fodder, but more importantly as a Travelling area where the residues arent likely to be read by anyone inconvenient-like Logain. If thats a possibility, where else are those gateways going to be headed, if not to Moridins fortress in the Blight? If thats the case, then the distance between the buildings at the Black Tower and the Blight fortress means nothing. Because of Travelling the two would be like one building. And since we have seen True Power gateways I'd say this is all possible even with the Dreamspike in place.

 

It's possible, I just don't think it's likely. They seem like completely different people, and I really can't see Moridin doing such dirty work. Though I have nothing I'd consider "proof" that Taim is not Moridin, so I refrain from my usual snarkiness and lambasting.

[OptimusPrime]

Hahahaha its like Whiskey said, its all just to pass the time

[OptimusPrime]

I'd also like to add, just for the hell of it, that Rand seeing Moridins face could probably happen even at a time when Moridin was wearing the disguise, because there is a very common belief that Rand can now recognize a person by their thread.

 

Hahahahahaha

[Kahsm]

I feel like this should mean something, but I'm not entirely sure what.

 

In TSR, right at the very end when Rand captures Asmo and Lanfear shows up, she says "I brought him to teach you, because..." and rand finishes the though for her "Because there's no one else."

 

At this point Mazrim Taim had basically just been freed. And earlier, Lanfear had explained why it couldn't have been any of the other male forsaken. But she never even thouches on Taim, or any other MCs. As far as she seem to believe, the male forsaken are truly the only male channelers in existence other than Rand.

 

So either Lanfear doesn't know anything about Taim, which suggests that by this point he is not a high-level minion, or Taim really is one of the forsaken and therefore you automatically discount him by discounting the forsaken.

 

So while this does not rule out Tamordin, does it seem to rule out any minion-taim theories? I'd think Lanfear would have at least considered him if there was another trained male (dreadlord or darkfriend) running about. I'd assume that'd be hard to keep secret when at one point he was off playing false dragon.

[yoniy0]

She might just consider any non-AoL-er unfit to teach Rand, don't you think?

[Lisa Campbell]

Taim is not of the AoL. Anything he has learnt is towards Rand's destruction. I think Lanfear's statement really means that Asmo is the only one who could be captured and forced to comply.

[Rose]

Also, if Taim was an important minion, maybe she would have gotten herself into trouble by capturing him to teach Rand.

[Kahsm]

She might just consider any non-AoL-er unfit to teach Rand, don't you think?

 

Yes possible, though she doesn't leave Asmo much to teach him with, and doesn't seem to think much of him either really.

 

Taim is not of the AoL. Anything he has learnt is towards Rand's destruction. I think Lanfear's statement really means that Asmo is the only one who could be captured and forced to comply.

 

Well originally that wasn't the plan at all, he seemed to be willing until he went off the rail and went for the choden kal.

 

Also, if Taim was an important minion, maybe she would have gotten herself into trouble by capturing him to teach Rand.

 

This is probably very true. I mean, even if the isle of madmen is full of Ishy-trainees, she'd probably get in trouble for "borrowing" one. But I think my problem was she specifically rules out the other men and never mentions why anyone else is not viable, they just don't exist to her.

[SylvanFox]

What about that passage, around the time of Dumai's wells, where Perrin smells Taim's scent and it changes way too fast... I tried searching "scent" and "smell" on this topic and it looks like it hasn't been mentioned.

 

Rand turned his head toward Taim. His face matched any Aes Sedai for giving nothing away, but his scent made Perrin's ears try to lie back. Razor-sharp rage abruptly vanished in curiosity and caution, the one thin and probing, the other fog like; then slashing, murderous fury consumed both. Rand shook his head just slightly, and his scent became stony determination. Nobody's scent changed that fast. Nobody's.

aCos Chapter 2; The Butcher's Yard

 

Moridin flips the scrip like this all the time. There's the infamous tPoD prologue, when he gets ragingly pissed because he doesn't know the origins of some stuff in a chess game. Later, in Chapter 2, he gets angry watching Avi unravel the gateway, calms down quickly, and then gets angry again about the Bowl of the Winds, this time angry enough to grab the TP and go crazy for a second. After a second or two, he's pretty calm again.

[yoniy0]

Perrin was smelling Rand there, not Taim, I think. The rage was a LTT-episode, I believe. One of those indications we had that Rand was actually going mad.

[damandred]

I still think taim is Demandred. There is only 3 poss of who demandred is and they have to be leaders the "My rule is secure" line in TGS nails that down. 1, The King of Murandy. King Roedran is a bit of a unknown and I suppose demd could be him I think its unlikly though. For a start Murandy is a week kingdom, true demd could of been bending its lords to his will but even so I don't think even then it would be that big of a coup. Secondly Talmanes' comment to mat in KoD about Roedran having two copies of fog and steel. (The man thinks it will make him a great captain) hardly sounds like demd who already considers himself a great captain and would proberbly scorn any teachings of someone from a lesser age. 2/ He's with the boarderlanders he would have to be a King,Paitar or Easar both well established in their rule before the forsaken got free. Iv heard the theory demd has killed and is impersonating Paitar. If that was the case why not come up with a question rand couldn't answer so the boarderlanders kill him, in any case when we leave them in ToM it looks like there going to swear to rand so unless demd plans to sneak up on rand and kill him(not his style).I don't think any boardland army would attack rand once their kings had sworn. 3/ Taim, he pops up knowing allsorts of the one power and not mad. He is defo a dartkfriend with command of Myrddraal who can turn channelers. He is a hard man like demd often brutul and he comes out with the "Let the lord of chaos rule" line as far as I know only used by the forsaken(end ofKoD). But for me the clincher is his pretensions, demd always thought he was better than LTT and turned to shadow coz LTT got put above him never accepting his superiority. Its the same with Taim, Perrin smells his fury when rand gives Taim an order, plus giving himself the title M'Hael to try putting himself on par with TDR and you could say his rule is secure in the black tower. I cant think of anyone else all other lands are acounted for except for shara (now that would be a suprise). I don't see how demd could not be Taim.Unless BS has come out and said straight off its not(in that case ill feel pretty stupid).

[capuga]

I don't see how demd could not be Taim.Unless BS has come out and said straight off its not(in that case ill feel pretty stupid).

 

He has. And before him RJ confirmed many times that Taim was not Demodred. The WoT FAQ has all the quotes on this. Also, if you can find one of Terez's posts, her signature contains a link to a database that contains all the RJ and Brandon interviews searchable by topic.

[damandred]

Damm feeling daft. Only just started searching WoT online(been a fan for years). If that's the case who's Taim and Who's demandred have to be the biggest mysterys in the series